Anthony Cawdron: 

This is Anthony Cawdron and you are listening to This Is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps, and inspiring others to do the same. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Your resume says a lot about you, but it’s only two-dimensional. The way people present themselves. If you look like you’re looking after your own clothes and your shoes are shined, it’s likely to tell me that you’re going to look after someone else’s assets just as well. I do start out by saying a lot of this is common sense. The problem is that sense isn’t that common any more. And it’s not rocket science, it does help rocket scientists get better jobs. 

Kate Young: 

Are you looking to brush up on a few conversation starters, etiquette tips, and holiday hosting how-tos before Thanksgiving and the rest of the holidays hit this year? Well, look no further because this episode of This Is Purdue has got you covered. This incredible conversation first aired last November, and since it’s one of our most popular episodes, we wanted to share it with you all again as the holiday season approaches. Get ready to entertain and impress your guests or crush that big interview after listening to this one. 

In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Anthony Cawdron, Westwood event coordinator and estate manager. Westwood is the official home to Purdue’s presidents since the 1970s, and currently President Mung Chiang and his family reside in this historic home. Now, if you’ve ever had the chance to go to Westwood for an event or a dinner as either a student, alumni, or staff or faculty member, you likely know Anthony. But just in case, here’s a quick bit of background on him before we dive into this episode. 

Anthony has been at Purdue for 25 years now, but he’s originally from the UK. He’s lived all over the world and has even worked in a few European castles. He also teaches a business etiquette course here at Purdue. So from job interviews, to networking events, to holiday parties, Anthony is sharing his best etiquette tips with us. What’s a great way to spur small talk? What should you order for an interview over lunch? And what’s a polite way to leave a party? And it is not the Irish exit. Plus, during this special interview last year, Anthony made us homemade English goodies and tea, which is very fitting for his background. There’s really no better place for Anthony to tell us about his Boilermaker journey than within the walls of Westwood. Okay, so let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Anthony. 

Anthony, thank you so much for joining us today on This Is Purdue. We’re thrilled to talk to you. We have some lovely snacks and tea that are set up. Tell us a little bit about this, before we dig into Westwood and your journey, okay? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. So we have the classic English cucumber sandwiches. So the cucumbers on thin-sliced bread with no crusts. Then we have some profiteroles with some gold dust, of course. And then some macarons with poppy seeds and key lime. And then we have some homemade scones. And there’s a big- 

Kate Young: 

And you made them, right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I made them, yes. I made them this morning. But there’s a big debate on how you pronounce it. Some people say scones, some people say scones. I’m a scones side. And then when we eat them, there’s a big debate as to which you put on first, is the jam or the cream. And I’m jam first, then cream. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That’s just the way I do it, but a lot of people are wrong. 

Kate Young: 

Well, thank you so much for having us here and for making- 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’re welcome. Thank you for coming. Yes, absolutely. 

Kate Young: 

… this lovely arrangement. We’re at Westwood. This is the home to Purdue’s presidents. You’ve been here as the estate manager and event coordinator for over 20 years. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, 24 last week. Or last month. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, my goodness. Congratulations. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

So you’re actually from the UK though, I’m sure our listeners can tell by- 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Sometimes. Everyone in England thinks I have an American accent. 

Kate Young: 

Oh. Well, we’re excited to get into your journey, like I said. This property is so beautiful. I’m sure no day is the same for you. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No, which is actually one of the good things. At 24 years, if the days were all the same, you wouldn’t be able to do it. So I think that having variety, and different events, and different things going on, and different people coming in and out, and projects that don’t involve guests as well, all of that. I’ve been keeping the outside looking good, and redoing the driveways, and all those type of things. 

Kate Young: 

Yes. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. Tell us about your journey to West Lafayette, since we do know you’re from the UK. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

How did your experiences overseas set you up for success here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. So my father was in the Air Force, so I was a military brat, if you’d like it that way. So we moved a lot when I was growing up. We lived in Hong Kong and Singapore, then returned to England where I finished my high school. And then did catering college for two years, and then went to work in Switzerland for a year. And then came back and finished my degree at Oxford Brooks University. Then got into, almost by accident, working at Blenheim Palace. That then turned into Sutton Place, being the butler there at 21, which was a little daunting. My first guest was Prince Phillip, so it was a little overwhelming at times, but did that. And then went back in the restaurant industry. 

Then had a call from somebody who said, “Would you like to teach?” So I moved to Switzerland again and taught in a hotel school there. And then had an opportunity to do a work abroad project with Iowa State, ostensibly for a year. So I left Switzerland intending to come back and I haven’t gone back yet. So that was 34 years ago. So I think that overall, travel and just being involved in international hotels and restaurants and seeing things from that perspective is really what started me interested in the events business and catering and that type of thing. 

Kate Young: 

Anthony explains how his experiences working within the Blenheim Palace and Sutton Place in England ignited his passion for event planning and etiquette. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I think it gave me an opportunity to see exactly how things should be done and just the attention to detail, and how to look after people, and working with people from higher ranks if you like, and royalty, and all of those type of things. So I think it set me up quite well as being able to handle guests of every caliber and every background. 

Kate Young: 

As Anthony previously mentioned, he left Switzerland for a work abroad project in the US at Iowa States in Ames, Iowa. It was there that he met former Purdue President Martin Jischke and his wife Patty. Anthony discusses how being at Iowa State and meeting this couple changed the trajectory of his career. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So I was there, as I said, for a year. And then during that year, I think for the first time, people really tried to nurture me and continue my education. So it was suggested I take my Master’s degree there at Iowa State, which I did. And then the Jischke’s arrived during that period, and certainly were well aware that they needed somebody to be more involved with the events side of things because the previous president had not done as much entertaining as they wanted. So they asked me to do a couple of things just to help out to start with, and then it developed into part-time, full-time, and then eight years working with them at Iowa State. Yes, it was a wonderful opportunity. 

Kate Young: 

So how did they ask you to come to Purdue? How did you finally end up here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It was a big debate in Ames as to whether I would or whether I wouldn’t go. And it was actually the Des Moines Register put more interest in my leaving than them. So it was will he go, won’t he go, will he go, won’t he go? So I flew here with Patty and Martin on a couple of occasions to look around and see whether liked it. So it was a pleasant surprise, so I said, “Okay, I’ll come for six months and see how it is.” So I lived in the apartment above the garage for six months and got used to being here, and decided I liked it and said I’d say, and that was, as I said, 24 years ago. 

Kate Young: 

24 years ago. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. 

Kate Young: 

So tell us about your role at Westwood. I know every day is different, but what are some of your duties and responsibilities here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So basically, keeping the house looking as good as it can. I have a team of wonderful housekeepers, Sheila and Tammy, and they do a fantastic job of making sure that the house is already because you never know when the President’s Office may call and say somebody’s coming over and you can’t be just suddenly rushing around. So keeping the house ready. Then obviously, with the events, working with the President’s Office in making sure that we’re up-to-date on what’s happening, whose coming, making name tags, making place cards. And then obviously, working with chef probably once a week to see what events we have coming up. There are weeks when we have fewer events, and then there are weeks where we have lots of different things. 

Kate Young: 

Every night? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. And also, during the day. I’d say that Mitch used to entertain more at breakfast time because there was no family and people getting to school, and things like that. So we did more entertaining in the mornings with him. I say the variety is what keeps it interesting, and obviously the seasons, and the things inside, outside the house as well. 

Kate Young: 

What is one of your earliest memories of Westwood? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I think the first time when, as I say, Patty and I traveled with Martin to come to see what West Lafayette was like, and I’m driving through the gates. Obviously, it’s a president’s house, like many big 10 schools in campus, and we had parking for about five cars in the driveway. And I drove in here and you’ve got almost a mile of drive. So just the setting was very, very different from what we were used to. And just a sense of a big house, and then seeing the spaces that we had to work with was wonderful because, again, the Iowa statehouse was Victorian, so it wasn’t necessarily designed or easy to use as Westwood is. Westwood is very versatile, as we’ve hosted events for eight people or 250 people, so it’s a lot of things like that. 

Can I pour you some tea? 

Kate Young: 

Yes! Oh, my gosh, please do. And we have to try one of the homemade scones. Did I say it right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You did. So this teapot is actually from the Shaw china that was given to the house back in the 1990s, and we have some pieces. Unfortunately, it’s aging so it does need some care and it’s not always leaking, but this one is not. We’re doing so far. 

Kate Young: 

It’s beautiful. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. 

Kate Young: 

Now, do you enjoy milk with your tea? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I do take milk in my tea. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. I do, too. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I’m not doing it the right way because if you put milk in first, then that’s very … 

Kate Young: 

Good to know. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And that’s where the phrase miffed comes from. MIF, milk in first, and people who put milk in first are second class. 

Kate Young: 

We’re learning all types of things on this podcast today. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

All right. We’ll give you a sandwich. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you so much. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’re very welcome. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, so fast-forward. President Jischke leaves in 2007. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

What made you want to stay here at Purdue? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

We know that Dr. Jischke was going to retire in 2007, so that was all expected. And then when Dr. Cordova and Chris Foster came here on a sightseeing trip, visit, I was obviously here and was cooking breakfast for them. And then they said, “Will you stay?” And I said, again, “Yes, we’ll give it a try.” So it’s become a hand me down thing. I think you get the house, you get him, too. 

Kate Young: 

I think they’re thrilled to have you though with the house. So what has it been like for you to experience the Midwest? Back when you lived in the UK, did you ever picture yourself where you are now? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No, I really didn’t. When I was in Switzerland, some of my students there said, “You’ll absolutely hate it. You won’t fit in, it’ll be awful and you won’t like it, and you’ll be back. You won’t even stay the year.” So I was somewhat, not worried, but trepidation I’d say. Because I called the bank in London and said, “Can I set up an account?” And they went, “Ooh, not sure. Where are you going to live?” And I said, “Iowa.” They said, “Ooh.” They said, “We think there’s a bank in Des Moines.” I said, “Well, you have to drive 20 miles to a bank, that’s not the worst thing in the world.” And then you arrive in Ames and there are multi-story hotels, a huge stadium, and massive, massive buildings. You think, “We’ll be okay.” 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

What are a few of your most significant memories from your 24 years here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Gosh. I think entertaining. We’ve had three Secretaries of State come to dinner. Madeline Albright, Colin Powell, and Condoleezza Rice, they’ve been wonderful. The Secretary of the Navy. So I think it’s guests. Laura Bush when the convocation happened for her and the two girls, so that was interesting. Especially the time constraints placed on us for that event were amazing because they wanted a three-course meal in 37 minutes. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, my goodness. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So it was very, very tight timing, but we pulled it off and everyone went away happy. So it’s the guests and the different personalities of people. 

The nice thing about Westwood is that it is, as many people call it, the front door to the university. So we have students, hosting the Reamer Club come on an annual tour, the freshman Reamers. So they come on a tour of the house so that they know when they drive the train around, what is behind those doors if people ask. And then we have faculty, so we have faculty events. We have deans tonight. We have a faculty event most months. So it’s a nice use of the house for people who are on-campus. And then obviously, alums coming back. We entertain many, many, people so I think that variety is great. 

Kate Young: 

We’ve discussed, you’ve lived through several presidents here. Do you have any fun behind-the-scenes stories, anything that would surprise our listeners maybe? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’ll have to wait for the book. No. No, I don’t. I think things just happen and in 24 years, it drifts away. I supposed the cats coming in by mistake is interesting. Suddenly, somebody comes to me and says, “Here’s a cat.” Because they live outside and keep our mouse population down. 

Kate Young: 

Oh. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

But occasionally they manage to sneak in. When the Jischke’s were here, we had a dog, so that was also a challenge at times. 

Kate Young: 

Was he or she in the way? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

She. No, she was never in the way, but she would sometimes escape from the kitchen and be in places that she wasn’t supposed to be. And also, liked to get out, and go and find the dirtiest, muddiest places to roll as dogs do. I’m trying to think of anything else? 

Obviously, the gates have been an issue when power goes out. I’d get phone calls from the president saying, “I’m stuck outside the gate,” so I would have to drive over and climb the gate in the rain, and release the hydraulics on the gate, and open the gate so that they could come in. One time we had a power outage and the president at the time was trying to pack for a trip. So we had to get the Purdue Fire Department to bring one of the fire engines, or the fire truck, sorry. I’m not in England anymore. A fire truck up here and plug it in, they ran their generator so that we could have a light in the packing area so that they could pack their suitcases. 

Kate Young: 

Wow. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Other than that, I don’t think we’ve … We’ve managed to keep it pretty sane. 

Kate Young: 

How have you seen this iconic home change over the years? We were chatting before this and there’s been all types of renovations. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. So the house has morphed from a two-bedroom cottage when it was built in 1934 into the 17,000-square-feet that it is now. When we came in 2000, the house footprint was pretty much as it is. So we’ve made some tweaks, we’ve changed some things. We added a different porch last summer. So we’ve made alterations. The house I think is pretty much at its maximum footprint now. There’s really not much more room for anything, but it works well and what was put in, especially with the big addition that the Beering’s did, has made the house incredibly functional. We have the catering kitchen and the big dining room that we can seat 104 in if we have to. It’s tight, but we can get. So it is a very workable house. I think that’s really the biggest change. People, when they drive up, they don’t realize just how much house there is at the back really. 

Kate Young: 

It’s so stately and beautiful. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

But yes, you don’t really see … When you haven’t been inside before, you haven’t seen the depth of the house. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

The day that our podcast team had the pleasure of visiting Anthony at Westwood, he and his team were setting up for a Purdue deans dinner that evening. I asked Anthony what a typical day of managing Westwood looks like when planning for an event like this. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

We usually have a fair amount of notice about when these events are happening, so obviously we know what the room’s going to look like. Depending on the table, we’ll seat the table in other occasion, but the table is fairly versatile in that we can seat up to 22 at one table, and the president seems to like that feel of everyone being at one table. 

Kate Young: 

More intimate? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Because once you separate people, if the First Lady is there, she can host one table and he can host another, but it still separates the guests. So we’ve done a lot more events with the big, long table. And I will already have talked to chef and we’ve planned the menu, and we do try and feature as much Indiana food as possible just because people like it and we’re using the student farm’s produce at the moment as well. 

So we’ve already planned the menu, so then prior to that I will give our two housekeepers, as I said, Tammy and Sheila, a list of what china we’re using. We have five different sets of china, so depending on the time of day and maybe the type of guest that are coming, we make a choice of which china pattern we’re going to use. So they’ll get that ready for me. Then I’ll put up the tables, put out the chairs, and then start laying tables. And typically, if we have a big event, then I’ll have set the tables up the day before. 

And if we’ve got flowers to be done, I’ll try and get those done and put in the cooler ahead of time. Another nice thing about Westwood is it does have a lot of garden space, so in the spring when we’re planting the gardens, we try and have things that can be cut flowers. Patty Jischke was instrumental in starting the cut flower idea so that we can harvest a lot from the gardens as long as we can. 

So getting the flowers ready, and then having everything on the tables. And then our staff arrive usually about an hour prior to the event. By that time, we’ve probably got name tags out, I’ve done place cards. So there’s that arrangement, that finalizing and getting the final bits out. So the glasses ready for the arrival drinks. And then always being ready for changes. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, pivoting. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. That is the key to this game. 

Kate Young: 

So speaking of that, a lot of our listeners and viewer probably don’t know all of the behind-the-scenes details that go into event planning. It’s a lot more than one might think. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

What are some things that you’ve learned over the years when it comes to event planning and facing some challenges or having to make those pivots? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You definitely get to have a plan B, a plan C, and hopefully never have to use it, but a plan D just in case. So there’s always that backup and being ready for those changes. Even if you don’t want them to happen, just that you know that these things are going to take place. So I think that’s always the key is trying to predict the unlikeliness of things. And that does sometimes get to be a challenge when we’re doing the one long table because it fits 22, not 23. So if a 23rd guest comes, we have a real problem. We have had issues where the room has been full, so we’ve had to suddenly grab a small table from another area in the house and just throw some food and some silverware at it and say, “There we go.” 

But I think anticipating what might happen. So we’ve always got extra food, we’ve got an extra place setting sitting somewhere so that it’s as fast as we can to get it in. People’s diets. Halfway through a meal, they become vegetarian. So you, “Oh, all right, we’re going with that. Well, that’s all right. Yes, that’ll be fine.” So just adapting. 

And when I teach my classes, I always say two of the key elements to being good is adaptability and flexibility. You’ve got to read the situation, work out what’s going to make it happen, and then be ready for something not happening right. 

Kate Young: 

Beyond working at Westwood, Anthony also teaches a business etiquette course at Purdue in the White Lodging-J.W. Marriott, Jr. School of Hospitality and Tourism Management within the College of Health and Human Sciences. I asked him more about this course and what role he believes etiquette plays in modern society. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So I got into it when I was at Iowa State. A fraternity approached me and asked me if I would go in and do a presentation for a fraternity and I thought it’s a one-off. And I would say over 34 years of doing these, how many thousand times I’ve actually given the presentation. So it’s still popular, I still travel. I was in New Orleans in August giving it to a fraternity conference there. I’m speaking next week and the week after to various agronomy classes, so that’s also good. But I think it’s something that people realize they should need. Many people may have been told by an aunt or a grandmother at some point, “Do this, do this,” and they go, “Yeah, whatever.” And then they suddenly realize that perhaps that was useful and that they might find it helpful. 

My classes are usually full, which is great. So we have about 60, 65 students every semester. This is an eight-week class. I do start out by saying a lot of this is common sense. The problem is that sense isn’t that common anymore. And it’s not rocket science, but it does help rocket scientists get better jobs. I think it really, what we’re trying to do is make the students as comfortable as they could be in an environment that they’re not necessarily used to. And being with your peers all the time and eating in the dining court, eating quickly, not worrying about things, and then suddenly you’re placed in this situation where you do have silver, you do have plates, you do have glasses, and you’re being watched. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That’s the deal. Your resume says a lot about you, but it’s only two-dimensional. When you walk in the door, and sit you down and I watch you eat, I think, “I don’t think this is going to work.” That’s why we do it. I’m pleased that professors do ask me to go to their classes and give a presentation. What they remember of it is entirely up to them. I’ve done it for the ROTC and that one is a challenge in and of itself because they meet at 6:00 in the mornings. Doing a presentation for people in uniform at 6:00 in the morning is interesting. 

Kate Young: 

Tell us some of these tips that you’re telling the students when it comes to networking. Interviews over a meal, that’s something I have always struggled with. I don’t necessarily want to be eating and worrying if I have something on my face or eating too slow, eating too fast, right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Right and that is the challenge. And that’s why they put them into that position, is they want to see can you deal with this? So one of the key things I say is when you go to a meal and if it’s somewhere that you’re not familiar with, ask people what they’d recommend. You can gain from that information whether or not these people have an appetizer course. Or if they don’t recommend any appetizers, I probably won’t be ordering an appetizer. Choosing foods that you can eat without using your hands. Choosing foods that you can eat easily while still maintaining a conversation. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So ordering something because you’re trying to show off or think, “Oh, yes, I’ll take advantage of this menu because somebody else is paying,” is generally going to backfire on you. So making wise choices at the table. Keeping pace with the rest of the table. And I do tell people if they’re hosting and the guest of honor is being bombarded with questions, it’s their job to step in and say, “Let’s all have our guest eat a little bit and somebody else talk about their research project or what they’re going to be doing this coming semester,” whatever it happens to be, so that there’s an opportunity for people to catch up. 

And the other thing is to be aware of other people’s needs. A lot of people are focused on their own little space. We do live in a selfie-ish world and it’s all about me, so they don’t think about other people. So passing things that are in front of them, seeing that somebody needs something. You’ve got a cup of coffee, the cream and sugar is next to me, “Would you like some cream and sugar? Could I pass this to you?” Or just keeping an eye on what’s going around. They may be the guest, but if they’re going to be hired by the company and they have taken and interest and said, “Can we get you some more water? Would you like another bread roll?” All of those types of things show me that you are looking outside your own comfort zone and you are willing to take care of other people. So if I do hire you, I won’t have any worries about sending you to a restaurant with our guests because I know that you can do it. 

Balancing conversation and eating. Taking time to actually take the food and then answer the question, don’t try and do both. We have a lot of weaponizing of silverware at the moment, making it look pleasant for other people. I tell students, “Put yourself in front of a camera and watch yourself eat. And if you don’t like it, this is why you’re sitting in front of a camera.” 

Kate Young: 

It’s humbling. Humbling. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So just little details like that because it can come down to the fact that you are a better ambassador of yourself at the table and that may be the key to me saying, “You get the job, you don’t.” 

Kate Young: 

I love that. It’s like if you’re attending to people’s needs, you’re going to be a team player, you’re going to care for your coworkers. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Similarly, the way people present themselves. If you look like you’re looking after your own clothes and your shoes are shined, it’s likely to tell me that you’re going to look after someone else’s assets just as well. Even though your suit may not be the newest, if it’s taken care of and it looks good, then it says to me you can take care of things. Again, little details like that. Shaking hands, making eye contact when you talk to people. Speaking clearly. Especially for introductions, people are so nervous. They speak so quickly and then you have to repeat it. And then say, “Really, slow down, slow down.” 

Kate Young: 

Slow down. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And if you have to, say it again. It’s fine. Or ask somebody their name again. We’re trying to make them as comfortable as possible and feel like their education is the starting point, but what they make out of their lives is something that they have to do. Have a wide range of topics to talk about because if all you can talk about is your school, it’s fine, but there’s a bigger world out there. 

I also tell people to do some research before you go. If your interview’s in Seattle, get the Seattle paper off the internet, read it, find out what’s going on. So that when you go there, you can talk to people who live in Seattle about things that are happening in Seattle. They feel that you have tried to integrate yourself already, rather than just assuming that everything is … I ask my students in class, “Can you name me the mayor of Lafayette?” No. “Can you name me the mayor of West Lafayette?” No. I say, “You’ve lived here for years, you have to be able to think of it. Because if you go to something here and you can do that, people are going to think you really are so distanced from reality.” 

Kate Young: 

Have you ever had students, I’m sure you have, come back to you and say- 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

“… I was in a really trick interview,” or, “Hey, I was at this networking event and I thought back to your class and what you told us?” 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I’d say that the thing I’ve had most people comment on after the fact is the ability to hold a glass, a plate, and a fork in one hand. So you’ve got your plate, your glass, and your fork, and so your right hand is still free to shake hands, and you’re able to deal with all of the food and drink in one hand. And you look sophisticated- 

Kate Young: 

Polished doing it? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… you look polished, and you can multitask and you didn’t need to write it on your resume. But I’ve had several students come back to me and say, “I was the only one who could do it.” Or, “I felt so comfortable because I knew what I was supposed to do, whereas everyone else was juggling things.” Yeah. That one’s probably the one that I get the most. 

So would you like one of these scones now? 

Kate Young: 

Yes. I’m so excited because I don’t think I’ve ever tried one with this cream. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

So tell us. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So English scones typically, and you always split them, you never cut them. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And usually, you have red jam, we call it jam, you call it jelly. We call it jam. So you take some jam and put it onto your plate. Come on. And then you have some cream. In England, you’ll probably find it’s clotted cream, which is hard to find here. Which is a heated cream, so it’s a little bit more weighty and fat content. Pass that over to you. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you. Okay, so you’re not taking the knife and directly putting it on I’ve noticed. Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No. Now sometimes, when we do reception events here, chef makes wonderful scones, we will actually split them and spread them so that people don’t have to work with that. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Because again, when you’re designing food for large groups, you have to have things that are easy to eat, quick and easy to pick up. So then the key is to take a little bit of jam and put it on about a bite-sized piece of the scone. 

Kate Young: 

So not the whole thing? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It’s so complicated being English. And then you put some cream on the top. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. And we did jam first, like you said. Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Some people will even put butter first, then jam, then cream. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a lot. The cream is insanely delicious. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Good. 

Kate Young: 

And so is the scone. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

With the scone. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, my goodness. Okay, see how I was taking both hands? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’ll see people do that as sometimes … That’s another thing I tell students. When I go around the class at the beginning of the semester, I ask them what their worst habit is. 75% of them say procrastination, which I can’t do anything about. 

Kate Young: 

It sounds like a college student. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And then the next one is fidgeting because they’re always playing with things. Probably from growing up, they were always playing with a phone or a game, or something. So sometimes that has now secured both of my hands and I’m not doing anything silly with them. Whereas if I have one hand free, people start to play with things, or they fiddle, or they play with their hair or their fingernails. 

Kate Young: 

With a job interview, it’s just such a turnoff. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, it’s distracting. So sometimes adding that extra hand just gives your hand something to do. But generally, you would only hold with one and stir in two. Stir quietly. 

Kate Young: 

In October, Anthony received the Special Boilermaker Award, which honors members of the Purdue faculty or staff who have contributed significantly to the improvement of the quality of life or the betterment of the educational experience for Purdue students. Anthony shares what this award means to him. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It was a very, very special moment. It was quite a surprise being told I had it because I was at a meeting in Hovde, and we were leaving the meeting. And Teresa Cadwallader, who is Mung’s executive assistant, said, “Oh, could you just pop in here?” And I thought, “What is this?” So she opened the door and ta-da. So that was a big surprise. And then obviously, going down onto the field to receive it was a very special honor. It was a wonderful honor and obviously my co-recipients, we had a great time. So it was very, very special. 

I don’t know whether there’s a Bingo card of things that if you’re at Purdue this long, you get one of these. And if you get this long, you get one of these. So I was the Reamers, I was in Iron Key, MARTA Board, Hall Master, so my Bingo card’s getting full. But yes, it was a very nice honor, very nice. And I’ve had many, many messages. I’ve had 450 messages on Facebook after it was … Eric Barker, Dean Eric Barker took some really nice pictures, so they were on Facebook so a lot of people responded to that. And then I had people text me who were in the Buchanan Club saying, “Oh, yeah, three of us up here are also a Boilermaker Award recipients in the past and we’re here cheering for you. Thanks for joining our ranks,” if you like. So it was very, very, nice. 

Kate Young: 

I can tell Purdue means a lot to you. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, it does. 

Kate Young: 

Why have you stayed here this many years? Why? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I sometimes ask myself the same question, I don’t always give myself the same answer. It has worked out really well. As I say, I started out expecting to be in the US for a year and that turned into 34. I do love the variety of the US. Obviously, we’re here in the Midwest and we have our wonderful seasonal changes, which I really do enjoy. I think ti’s nice to still have winter. Having lived in Switzerland and being in the snow for three or four months a year, you miss things like that if you were in a warmer state. So I really do like the seasonal changes. Particularly, I enjoy gardening and things outside, so it’s nice to see and to be able to make changes and not that the landscape is going to be the same day in, day out as if you were in some other states to the west maybe. So it’s nice having that variety. 

The ability to travel relatively easily. I do miss public transport. I do miss European trains. But you get around here, but it is an easy place to move from and to go see different parts of the country and travel. So I think the Midwest … Many people who travel from here after they graduate go and live in metropolitan areas, but then eventually return to the Midwest because they say it’s just a better place to live and to bring up families, and things like that. The people are very warm. It’s a very accepting and very welcoming community, and I think that that’s why I ended up staying at Iowa State is that people probably said, “We’re interested in making you do something different and getting on with the Master’s degree.” 

So that also goes back to one of the things I tell students is that, yes, your degree may be in biomechanical engineering, or whatever it happens, biomedical engineering. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you are going to stay in that field. And if something comes along that says to you, “That sounds interesting, let me try that.” And say at 22, you have nothing to lose. If you don’t like it, great, you can try something else. And you can at that point probably still fit all your belongings into one vehicle, so if you need to travel, you can do it now. Because as life gets more complicated- 

Kate Young: 

You’re tied down more. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… it’s a lot harder to make those changes. And I think when I first took my first job at Blenheim Palace, I didn’t know that that would lead to this. It was a one-off three-week job for the Christmas holidays with the Duke and Duchess, and then, “Would you come back full-time?” Yes, why not? And then everything just transitioned. 

So you can never actually predict what’s going to happen next. So I think I’ve enjoyed the fact that, having worked for four presidents, each one comes with a different background, different sets of needs, different requirements, so that has … In a way, I haven’t really worked here for 24 years, I’ve worked here for 2.5, and I’ve worked here for 10, and I’ve worked here for five, and I’ve worked here for seven with each of the four different presidents. So that I think has kept things fresh. To have stayed in one place, one person, one job, routine might not have been the case. I’m not saying that people have tried to take me away from here. 

Kate Young: 

I can imagine. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Purdue may be known as the cradle of quarterbacks, but it’s also the cradle of presidents in that we’ve had three provosts go on to be wonderful presidents of big schools. Sally Mason, Randy Woodson, and Tim Sands have all made wonderful presidents in their own right and all three have asked me to go with them. 

Kate Young: 

There’s a behind-the-scenes story. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. 

Kate Young: 

What does this Boilermaker community and being part of it mean to you? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I do really like living in Lafayette, West Lafayette. I live downtown and when friends come to visit from England, particularly we’ll walk around downtown or go to a restaurant, people know you, they come up to you, they recognize you, they talk to you. I’ll sit on my porch and people will say hello or will stop and chat on the porch. So it has a very nice feel that you don’t always get in other countries because people are either too busy or they feel that they can’t talk to people because they don’t know them yet or they’re not familiar with them. So there’s a lot to the Midwest and warmth and welcoming feel. 

As you know and I know, when we travel to different states, it’s not always the same. It does feel … You feel like an outsider in some states. So the community itself is wonderful. I’ve made lots and lots of friends, either from guests coming here or from working relationships, and then alumni, and donors and people. Having traveled with Purdue as well, that’s another really good way of establishing a bond, a friendship with people that you may not normally have had a chance to meet. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. With the holiday season in full swing, we couldn’t let Anthony go without asking some burning questions when it comes to etiquette. So for our listeners who may be preparing for holiday events, whether you’re hosting or attending as a guest, Anthony shares his top advice, including avoiding the rather popular Irish exit strategy. Are you guilty of doing this a time or two? I know I am. Here’s Anthony. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

A little more tea? 

Kate Young: 

Yes, actually. It’s delicious. Thank you. So for people hosting events or maybe attending events, what is a small, thoughtful gift that you could give to the host of a dinner party, let’s say? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. The whole notion of giving gifts is changing. Gift giving, certainly in the corporate world, is now almost frowned upon because it’s a difficult gray area. One thing to remember is that the host has asked you there because you they want you there. They didn’t necessarily want you to bring anything. So there was I think, in the past, almost an obligation that people felt, that I have to take a gift, and that’s not the case. If you feel like taking something, that’s fine, the host would appreciate it, but don’t feel that you can’t go empty handed. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

The other thing to think about is particularly if the host is greeting you and you hand them this, then they’ve got to deal with it. So giving then something that they can easily say, “Oh, that’s lovely, thank you,” and put it down, and then it’s out of the way, they don’t have to … So when people bring flowers, it’s very pleasant, it’s very nice, but if they’re not already arranged or in some container, then, “Oh, I’ve got to deal with these now. Let me put them down. They should probably go in water. Oh.” If you’ve got someone, your event coordinator standing right there, yes, you can probably hand off a gift, but it makes it awkward for people. 

So particularly around the holidays, I think a small ornament or a handmade ornament, or there are lots of little arts and crafts shops here in town that sell small gestures, those are nice. Commemorative ornaments are nice. Homemade food if you’re somebody who’s very good at making chocolates or something like that, just a little gesture. If you are going to take flowers, as I say, take them already in a vase or in something that the host doesn’t have to then deal with them immediately, that they can just be placed. Also, people have probably done their own decorating, they’ve probably already got flowers on the table. They’ve probably already got most of that, so unless you know them very well and you’re just taking something that you know will fit in with the theme or the décor, it can be a little bit of a juxtaposition. 

A lot of people take bottles of wine. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, I’ve done that. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Which is fine. 

Kate Young: 

How do you feel about that? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It’s fine. The expectation is that you take the bottle of wine and it’s really a gift, don’t expect to drink it. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

If you have a particular wine. So if you’re planning a dinner party and you were cooking and I said, “Let me bring the wine,” I would ask you what you’re making and then I would bring a wine that was appropriate. And we would both know ahead of time I would bring the wine in a way that it was ready to be served by you, but you already knew about it. So if I bring a bottle of wine and I expect you to serve it and it doesn’t go with the food that you planned or you’ve already planned your wines, again, that can be a little awkward. So if you bring it just as a gift, perfectly fine, but don’t, as I say, expect to drink it. And I’ve seen some people, awkwardly, if it hasn’t been served, take it away with them at the end. 

Kate Young: 

What? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. “Well, they didn’t drink it, so I’ll take it back.” Oh, all right. Okay. 

Kate Young: 

I think it’s awkward when they open it up and have it at this event. I was like, “Oh, no, that was a gift for you.”? But if they want to open it, I get that. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. And again, I think it requires you as a guest, if we knew each other well enough and I’d been to your house several times. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I’d say, “Oh, let me bring some of the wine that we had last time.” Or, “I know that you really like this sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand, let me bring some. If you choose to serve it, entirely your choice. But if you don’t choose it, then it’s yours for the rest, you keep it.” 

Kate Young: 

And you do not take it home. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And sometimes host’s gifts, if they’re wrapped, don’t expect that the host is going to unwrap it then. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, okay. That’s a good tip. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So sometimes, if it is a little ornament, just bringing it unadorned so that they can see it immediately so that they don’t have to then unwrap it and then thank you. They can say, “Oh, that’s pretty. That’s lovely. I’ll put it on the tree,” or something like that. 

Kate Young: 

Right, because they have enough going on. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. So you just don’t want to confuse things. And that’s why we have, at wedding and big events, a table for gifts that you can just put them on and a basket for cards if people bring them. There’s no absolute necessity to physically hand it to me. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Then you can retrieve them and then thank people later. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, small talk. Some people hate it, some people are gifted at it. What are some small talk dinner conversation starters? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

All right. So again, part of it is doing your homework. You don’t have to be the NSA, but you can do a little bit of background. The other thing that people don’t do particularly well is actively listen. So while a conversation is going on, you may have said something that didn’t then get developed into a further conversation, but I picked it up. So then when you and I are sitting somewhere I can say, “Didn’t I hear you just say that you were going to the Bahamas for Christmas? Oh, that’ll be nice.” Or, “Did you just come back from the Maldives?” And any time that you can ask people things that make them want to talk- 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… is a good way because it’s a conversation, it’s not me lecturing. It’s you listening and then adding in and back-and-forth. So having actively listened or found out some details, or that you just got a new puppy, or that I saw in the newspaper that you just received the Special Boilermaker Award, or you just became Small Business of the Year. All of those things I have stored that I can bring out and use if I need to. 

We’ve talked a lot about the change of seasons. Fall, “Is fall your favorite season?” It’s giving people an open-ended question allows them to express, and then it should also then lead to further topics of things that we can talk about. Because as I listen, I can hear that you’re someone who loves fall. Have you been to Maine or the East Coast? “Oh, actually, we were planning that next year.” Well, how are you going to do it, by train or are you going on a cruise? 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So it generates itself, but it needs someone to start the ball rolling. And people are afraid to just start a conversation because they don’t know. So it sounds mundane, but the weather is a great way to start. “Did you have trouble getting here? I saw that it was stormy in Colorado. How was your journey?” And people have then the incentive to give more information and make you feel that this is a conversation. And I sometimes equate it to a tennis match. 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That your first topic is the serve and you send it over the net. And you hope that someone on the other side of the net will hit it back, and then you hit it back. And it’s back-and-forth, back-and-forth, and we’re adding to this conversation. 

We’ve all unfortunately been in the position where we start a conversation and then people will not. It’s, “Okay, try again. Let’s go this way. And we’re going to try that, and no, that one didn’t work. All right. Anyone else have anything interesting?” So sometimes it is difficult and some people just don’t want to engage in that. But small talk is really important because small talk leads you to big talk. 

The ability and the students on interviews, when they go, I say you won’t be spending all the time with the interviewer. You will be spending time with assistants, with other departments, other areas. And you have to be nice to all these people and you have to talk them. When you’re transitioning from this office to the HR department, we’re walking, you have to be talking. You can’t just leave it blank. Even though this person may not be the person you’re interviewing, I’m going to ask them afterwards. We’ve all seen Undercover Boss, I tell them that. I say the person that you go in to see who’s sitting behind a desk isn’t necessarily the person that you think it is. 

Kate Young: 

Or being rude to a waiter or receptionist, right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Well, especially at the CEO level, a lot of times, the dinner interview, the people are looking to see how you treat service. And if you treat them well, there’s a very good chance that you’ll treat employees lower down the totem pole than you well. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, the Irish exit. Are you familiar? The Irish goodbye maybe? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That’s not really a goodbye, you just disappear? 

Kate Young: 

Yes, you just simply disappear. What is a polite way? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Right. 

Kate Young: 

Maybe the host is busy talking to someone else. Maybe you just want to get out of there as fast as possible. What’s a polite way to leave a party? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

If you got to the stand-up event or a reception-style event where it is a lot of mix and mingle drifting around, and you may have commitments to other things at different times, the key is to try and make sure that your host knew you came. So making not necessarily a beeline for them, but making sure that when you arrive, you see your hosts quickly so that they’re aware that you did come, even if you’re not going to stay very long. Then do a circuit through the room as best you can. And then always try, even if the host is talking to someone else as you have to leave, try and make eye contact. Just something that signals that they are, again, aware of the fact that you have left. Rather than, “I don’t know where she went, I’m not sure. She was here just now.” If you can, even if you have to slip away early, just try and make some contact with the host to say, “This is been wonderful, but I do have to dash. Let’s catch up next week.” 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Or something like that if you can. Or, “Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say great party, thanks for having me. We’ll see you at the theater on Saturday,” or something like that. It makes them feel that it was a good idea to have you at the event even though you couldn’t stay for the full length. 

Kate Young: 

And you appreciated the invite. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’ve made an impression. So as I say, try and meet them when you first get there, and try and at least acknowledge the fact that you’ve had a good time and you’re heading out now. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. To wrap it up, the biggest dos and don’ts. What’s a top do this to impress people at an event and a top do not do this at an event? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You shouldn’t necessarily be just out to impress people. You should be doing things well, but not necessarily standing out- 

Kate Young: 

Like showboating? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… like showing off. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So keep it subtle, keep it light. I think we do find people who dominate the table. And I do tell people when you’re planning an event, think of the personalities that you’ve got. Because if you’ve got a strong personality and you’re hosting and we’re doing a long table rather than a round table as we’re at today. But if you have a long table and you’ve put somebody with a strong personality halfway down the table, that person will take over and you have no way of controlling that. If you have a strong personality, seat them next to you because you can physically rein them in if you have to because they’re right there. So again, that’s a good way of working out where you’re going to place people and who would be a good conversation group. Do these people have something in common? 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So it does that. Try not to dominate. If you realize that, “I’ve done all the talking,” or nobody’s had a chance to eat, again, try not to do that. Also, good manners can spoil good food. So listening to somebody talk and the food’s there, stop somebody. Don’t just let the food spoil. 

And that also brings up the buffet rule. That if you go to a buffet, it’s very likely that the rest of the people at the table are not immediately behind you in line. So when you get to the table, if there are three of you or more, you can start eating because those three people may not even arrive, or those two seats may be empty or unoccupied and you’ve been sitting there waiting for them to fill and your food is spoiling. So I always encourage people to use the buffet rule, three or more, start. 

Chewing with your mouth open. I don’t need to see your food. Eating noisily. Something it’s overwhelming. All right, yes. These people are automatically getting a no for the next invitation because you’re just not going to have people watch that again. Over-indulging. There may be very nice things offered to you, but you don’t have to necessarily take them all. And one thing I do tell students about events is that because, when you arrive, it’s likely hospitality is going to be offered quite quickly. Your choice of whether to take it then or not. You’re perfectly able to walk away and say, “I’ll be right back. Let me do some introductions.” Because yes, you might be able to hold a plate and a glass with one hand, but if you don’t have to, don’t do it. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So go around, make some introductions, and then circle back and get your drink. Circle back and get some food. So again, sometimes that is a test to see whether people have the ability to say, “No, I think I’ll wait.” 

Using the buffet as your own private dining space, no. Take some food and move away. You see something on the buffet you don’t like? Don’t put it back. Appetizers are not easy to eat standing up. We in hospitality love to watch people fail, that’s why we designed food like that. Things will crumble. So look at the food and say, “Can I deal with that?” 

Kate Young: 

That’s exactly what I do at weddings. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

Can I eat this? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Can I eat it neatly, cleanly, easily? Yes, go. No, I think I’ll pass. Take two bites. A whole egg roll is offered to you, yes, it would fit in in one go. Should it? No. Again, just dipping. One dip, one dip only. Not turning the carrot stick over and dipping the other end in. Taking things to a plate, to a vessel, rather than just eating them out of the bowl. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And sometimes events aren’t set up in the way that makes that easy. That you’ve got to find the plates- 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… or the plates and the napkins are in the wrong place. And you really want to get a plate, go down, and then at the last minute, pick up a napkin and a piece of silverware because you don’t need that for walking through the buffet. Just again, I think a lot of it is learned, but unfortunately we don’t see the opportunities to learn anymore. I will set a table with a tablecloth and people suddenly, “It’s so formal,” because they’re just not used to seeing tablecloths anymore. 

Sitting down before everyone else arrives, not good. Because then anyone else who arrives at the table, even if they’re on time, they feel like they’re late. So in a restaurant situation, you’re hosting, you’re waiting in the lobby, try and wait for all your guests in the lobby before you go to the table even though the restaurant wants you to sit down straightaway. If I arrive at 12:30, which is when I’m supposed to be there, and you’re already at the table and I’m the last there, I say, “Ooh, am I late?” Because it’s the psychological feeling that I didn’t make the right call. And if somebody does arrive late, get up and greet them and help them to their chair. It makes them, again, feel less self-conscious about being late. 

Kate Young: 

This is been fascinating. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you. Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Is there anything I missed? Is there anything else you want to tell our listeners and viewers? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Gosh, no. Listen, learn, and copying in school, not a good thing. If somebody does something outside of school that looks good, do exactly the same thing. You can learn a lot by watching people. Oh, and when you split a check evenly, don’t argue. No divisions of, “Well, you had two glasses of wine, oh, plus tax.” 

Kate Young: 

That is so uncomfortable. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. You see people having this wonderful meal, great conversation, and then they’re arguing about $26 the end of it. It’s not very … That’s all I’m going to remember when I walk out, is that you were trying to short me for $2, or was it. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a great tip to end on. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you very much. It’s been wonderful. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you. Oh, it’s been a pleasure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

I’m sure you all learned at least one tip from Anthony throughout the interview as we head into the holiday season. I know I did. It was a blast revisiting this special episode and celebrating Anthony’s 25 years as a Boilermaker. If you haven’t been to Westwood, or maybe it’s been years since you’ve been there, you can check out our videos from Anthony’s interview on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

And speaking of the holidays, we would be so thankful for a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. All you have to do is find us on one of those platforms and tap “write a review” to share why you enjoy the show. And be sure to hit that five-star rating too, while you’re there. 

This Is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glozbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshe and Sophie Ritz. And our creative production manager is Dalani Young. Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, boiler up.

P.J. Thompson: This is Coach PJ Thompson, and you’re listening to, this is Purdue. 

Kate Young: Hi, I’m Kate Young and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University as a Purdue alum and Indiana native. I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

P.J. Thompson: My goal when I was a freshman, when I left Purdue as a player, I wanted to leave the jersey in a better place than it was. Now I’m transitioning to this side. I tell the kids the same thing, leave the jersey in a better place. And the cool part is we’re reaching heights that we’ve never reached before. And so when you can continue to leave the jersey in a better place, that’s how you become one of the best programs in the country and I feel like we are that. 

Kate Young: In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to P.J. Thompson, Purdue men’s basketball assisting coach and proud Boilermaker alum. Coach Thompson grew up in Indianapolis and graduated from Purdue in 2018 with an organizational leadership degree. He also played basketball under head coach Matt Painter for the Boilermakers during his time at Purdue. And five years ago he returned to Purdue to join the coaching staff. Since then, he’s had quite an incredible career. We’re talking coaching, Purdue turned NBA players, Jaden Ivey and Zach Edye, being part of Purdue’s first number one national ranking and coaching for the 2024 NCAA national Championship in Arizona. Coach Thompson is diving into leadership in today’s modern world of college sports, the unique culture he’s helped to build within this Purdue basketball program and the upcoming season. After all, he’s coaching the offense for a team that enters the season as one of the leading contenders to win the national title. No pressure of course. He’s genuine, upbeat, and wow, is Purdue basketball lucky to have him. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Coach Thompson. Coach Thompson, thanks for joining us on, this is Purdue and coming to our studio today. 

P.J. Thompson: Yep. Thanks for having me. 

Kate Young: We are so excited. You have had so many accomplishments between when you were a player and now as an assistant coach with the Boiler ball. I want to list off some of your accomplishments to kick us off here. So during your time as a Purdue player, you were a three-year starter, you helped the team win the 2017 Big 10 Championship. Now you’re part of the coaching staff you’ve coached during a national championship. You’ve been here for Purdue’s first number one ranking. You’ve had players like Zach Edey, Braden Smith, you’ve got to coach them. So I guess our question is are you some type of a lucky charm for Purdue basketball? 

P.J. Thompson: I think I’ve been fortunate to … We talk in recruiting, it could be the right school, it could be the right coach, it could be the right system, but it’s the wrong time. I think I’ve been fortunate to be at Purdue at the right time and it’s been cool to see the evolution just because when I was a senior in high school, I think Purdue was last in the Big 10. And so when Purdue offered me the thing that stuck with me, coach Painter came to see me as a freshman. I was 14, 15 years old. And just the honesty and transparency throughout the recruiting process I committed and they had multiple point guards on the roster. I just thought it was the best place for me. And you get here and for us to get the program back to where it was when the Robbie’s of the world were here, us making the tournament was accomplishment going from last in the Big 10 to making the tournament. It’s been pretty cool man. 

Since I’ve been at Purdue, I’ve never not been a part of the NCAA tournament. People coach for 20, 30 years and they might not ever get a chance to participate in it. And so for me, being at Purdue has been awesome experience just because I’ve played or coached in nine or 10 tournaments. And so it’s been a blessing, but it’s a testament to coach Painter and his program. 

Kate Young: Did you ever expect coming in as a coach and part of this staff that you would be as successful as you all have been? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. For sure. I think it starts with the leadership up top. I think people, they’re just destined to win. I think Purdue was great because they were patient. I think a lot of times, and you see in sports, whether it’s the WNBA, NBA, college basketball, people don’t get the opportunity to be somewhere for 20 years. Coach Paint’s seen the highs, he’s seen the lows, but Purdue was patient and they were graceful and gave him an opportunity to learn to get better and that’s what you need. And so Coach Painter being the top, like being the guy, his leadership, so he does things the right way. He always says, “We’re going to win. We’re going to win at the highest level, but we’re not going to lose our soul in the process.” And in a time of college basketball changing and sports changing in general in collegiate sports, you got to stick to your core principles and Coach Paint’s done that and we’ve had great players. You don’t have great teams without great players. And we’ve had a lot of great players come through here to help keep Purdue where it belongs. 

Kate Young: Speaking of the whole landscape of college athletics with name, image, likeness has made a dramatic shift in the NCAA. It’s made a dramatic shift for coaches, players. You as a former player, what have you seen within the past 10 years with how NIL has changed the game? 

P.J. Thompson: Everything. You used to work as hard as you can to become a pro. And when you became a pro, whether it’s in Europe, whether it was in the NBA, that’s when you got paid. Now it’s different. These kids are getting paid in high school. Obviously Indiana, you’re not allowed to make money as a high school athlete, but kids are making money in high school. They’re doing different deals and it’s just different. And so for us, what’s worked at Purdue is keeping the main thing the main thing. You come to Purdue because you want a great education, you come to Purdue because you want to develop as a young man to becoming a man. So you can go and you’re 22, 23 years old and you can meet with Eli Lilly and they’re ready to hire you. And so for us, we’ve done a great job. 

While it’s changing, we’ve still recruited the same way. We don’t go for the most talented kids. We go for what works at Purdue. You got to value education, the family matters, you got to love basketball. But when you have that mix, you can have the success we’ve had. I think we’ve done a great job of still eyeing what works at Purdue. You got to get lucky. Like Zach Edey was 400 something ranked in the country, right? He averaged three points in high school, but he loved basketball. If it was 8:00 P.M. on a Friday night, he was watching film. He was a routine guy. He worked on his game after every practice, before every practice, on his off days. And so those guys, he becomes the two time national player of the year. But at the core, he was always a Purdue guy. And so for us, we just try to look for what we were looking for over the last 10 years, although the landscapes changed quite a bit. 

Kate Young: Speaking of family, and you can tell through social media, everyone’s going to each other’s weddings, everyone’s coming back for the alum games. You and other former players are part of the coaching staff. What do you guys do on and off the court that helps foster that mentality? 

P.J. Thompson: We’re going to Sasha’s wedding. It was cool. It’s going to be like 600 people there, but all the former players that he invited back. It is just different. We had 350 people at Coach Painter’s house during the alumni game. You saw all the fans that came. It’s a special place. And it’s not like that everywhere. And when you’re part of something, no matter how great everything is, you can take it for granted a bit. For us, we try to just stay in the process. It is a special place. You’re never going to agree with everything that goes on, whether you’re at Purdue, whether you’re at another school, whether you’re at a business. But Purdue man, it’s just different. And I think, like I said, it’s a testament to coach Painter and the people. You talk in recruiting with guys and you can’t ever forget it’s a people business. You want to be around great people. And whether it’s in the athletic department, whether it’s outside of the athletic department, Purdue has great people and it’s relationships. When we’ve had two head coaches in 40 something years, the stability. So if you want to go into this field, well it’s probably one phone call away. 

Obviously we’ve had guys that play professional basketball currently in Europe. I did. So we have guys that play in the NBA. But it’s a network and it’s a family and you don’t get the turnout we get from the alumni game if it’s not. I got all American friends. Some of my best friends, man, they were McDonald’s all Americans, they were college all Americans. They played seven, eight years pro and they don’t go back to their school in the summer. They come to Purdue and they want to be around us and I work them out. And it’s cool because Purdue is also welcoming. We’ve had people transfer from Purdue. My little brother transferred, made a mistake after three years and Coach Painter gave him an opportunity to come back and be a grad assistant and he’s going to get his master’s degree from Purdue. And you get your master’s degree from Purdue, you have a relationship with Coach Painter, now you’re in the family, you’re in the system. He’s going to live a great life because of it. And it’s just not like that everywhere. And so we’re extremely grateful just for the people that’s here in the Purdue community. 

Kate Young: You touched on in the past 45 years, coach Painter and Coach Keady have been the only Purdue basketball coaches and so many schools can’t say that. What are some of the biggest lessons that you’ve learned from their coaching styles and leadership? 

P.J. Thompson: It’s different. Coach Painter tells stories about Coach Kaedy and he was demanding, he was a great leader, but he did little things like he’ll bring them up to the office and he would say, “Did you call your mom today? Did you call your mom and say hello?” Little stuff like that. And when you’re 18 years old, you’re like, “Ah man, what’s he talking about?” But when you get older, you understand. You understand the why of things. And so for Coach Painter being somewhere for 20 years, he’s seen how college basketball has evolved from an X and O standpoint, from a recruiting standpoint. It’s ever-changing in the sport. 

And so I think you have to be able to adapt. I think kids are different now than when I played. I think Robbie and those guys, how Coach Paint coached when we played versus them, it was different. And I think when you go through things you just grow, but you got to be able to go through it first and learn, but you got to get the right people. We have the right staff. Coach Brantley played at Purdue, he’s a Purdue guy. Coach Lusk was with Coach Painter before he got to Purdue. Elliot Bloom went to school here. Nick Terruso went to school here. Sasha Stefanovic went to school here. I went to school here. Carson, Isaiah, Coach Terry. He wasn’t in the Purdue family, but Coach Painter is really close with Brad Stevens. And so how Butler used to operate, it’s how we operate. He was comfortable making that decision to bring Terry. When you have the right people in place, I think it’s going to increase your chances of doing special things. And Coach Painter’s done a great job of getting the right people from the staff and I think we’ve done a great job of evaluating. And then with that, Morgan Burke was here as the AD and he helped paint through some hard times. And then Mike Bobinski’s come and I think he’s elevated some things. 

Purdue is an innovative school. Purdue’s always trying to be better. We’re always trying to be the best. And when you have the support around you that wants you to succeed, they make it hard on us not to. But you don’t see the stability we’ve had here. And it is for a reason. Purdue is a special place and coach Painter’s continued. It’s hard to follow a Hall of Fame coach and he’s done that and he’s taken Purdue to a new level and it’s because of how great he is. He’s a Hall of Fame coach himself. I don’t think you necessarily get the love and your flowers when you’re in the midst of doing something, but I think whenever Coach Painter is done, I think people will finally understand what he’s actually been able to accomplish while being the head coach here at Purdue. 

Kate Young: How has he helped you since you started as assistant coach five years ago, develop your leadership skills? How have you evolved as a coach over the past five years? 

P.J. Thompson: He’s just a great dude. Outside of basketball he’s a great guy. You can talk to him about family, you can talk to him about your relationship. You can talk to him about any advice you need because he’s probably been through it himself. It’s not just about winning and losing and trying to get to that next contract. And I think in the business, I’ve been fortunate to see the good part of college basketball. Coaches can be car salesmen. They can manipulate things to get what they want out of the situation. And Coach isn’t about that. Little stuff, man. He buys our staff lunch every day. You don’t got to do that, but he buys our staff lunch every day because he’s a people person. Coach Paint, he’s a basketball guy. His mind is always racing about basketball, but coach just wants to sit and talk. He just wants to be a guy and be around the guys. And to see him as a coach is so different than what you thought as a player because 18 to 22. I haven’t met an 18 to 22-year-old, including myself when I was 18 to 22, we think we know everything and we think these guys are not regular people. 

And so to be on this side with him and see he’s a regular dude that he just loves you and he cares and he’s not going to do it by picking up the phone and texting you all the time. He’s not going to call you all the time, but when you need him, he’s there. I think that’s more important because lip service is easy. I can tell you anything you want to hear, but what are you going to do when I need you? There’s been multiple times seeing him on staff do things for his former players that it’ll never get out, but that’s the type of guy he is. Nor does he want it to get out, but just seeing his leadership outside of basketball, because my respect for him, I always thought when I was a player, he was one of the best to ever do it from a basketball standpoint. And now I see him in a different light. He’s more of a friend now. He’s more of a father figure. And so it’s been cool to see that evolution of coach. 

Kate Young: Absolutely. He’s so well respected. Bringing us back to NIL, we were talking a little bit before this about players staying here and loyalty and how we’ve said 18, 20-year-olds don’t always have the best judgment or they think they know everything. What does the word loyalty mean to you when it comes to basketball and how do you foster it within your players? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. It’s a great question. I think for us it’s doing the research prior. We don’t just bring kids in because they’re good at basketball. We do DISC personality tests. We get to know the kid inside of the kid, not necessarily the out. You can be preventative in bringing kids in by the work you do prior. Are they changing high schools? Are they going to three or four different high schools? Are they going to three to four different AU clubs? If they’re leaving those guys, they’re probably going to leave you when they get to college. And so we try to do the work before and keep getting the right kids because if you got the right kids, we know basketball, we know how to win. I think that’s been proven. It’s just getting the right kids. And throughout the changes of college basketball, our focus in getting the right kids have stayed the same and our kids focus are the same. 

And so when you talk about giving these kids at such a young age, all this money, a lot comes with that. But we’re preventative. We have people from campus police to the campus banks to NBA personnel. We have all these different people come and talk to our guys and be preventative because we don’t want something to happen and it’s on ESPN the wrong way. And now we’re trying to fix it. We want to be preventative. We want to teach them and still educate them because education is still at the forefront. We want kids to come to Purdue because they know that the Purdue education’s powerful and because we always say you’re going to be a former player a lot longer than you’re going to be a player no matter how good you are, like Zach Edey is amazing. He’s ninth pick in the draft. Jaden Ivey is the fifth pick in the draft. God willing, they’re going to live on earth as a former player longer than they are a player. 

And so you got to be able to go back and have something to rely on. And so if you’re going to two to three different colleges and these college coaches are getting a job every three to four years, who’s going to help you? Because at some point in life, everybody needs help. Coach Paint didn’t get that job because he’s great at basketball. He got that job because Coach Keady. I’m not at Purdue now because I’m great at basketball. I’m at Purdue now because of Coach Painter. And that’s just a basketball example. But at some point in life, you’re going to need help. And so when you’re loyal to people, no matter how many points you average, no matter how many assists you get, again, it’s a people business. 

You got to be able to rely on good people to help you. And I think that’s why our guys stay and they’re loyal because at the end of the day, they know they might not agree with everything I call offensively, they might not agree with everything we do in practice from a practice standpoint, but at the end of the day, it comes from a good place. All we want is to help them on and off the court be the best version of themselves. And I think a lot of times when you’re in it, you don’t really get it. But I think as you grow older, you go through different experiences in life. When life gets hard, you remember some of those lessons and so that helps you get through it and helps you move forward. 

Kate Young: Loyalty is of course a two-way street. How do you prove your end of the deal to your players? 

P.J. Thompson: It’s not just proof from what we say. We’ve taken four transfers in five years. Two of them are on this team. And that’s among the lowest in college basketball. We go in the portal out of need. We needed to become better defensively. We needed to become a better rebounding team. And so we go get the second-best rebounder in the portal. We needed to get Oscar Cluff. Dames coming off of a leg injury. He’s young. Trey Kaufman was playing out position, although he had a great year, we needed help with Liam at the four. We knew it was going to be a smaller role. We were honest with him. We were transparent in the recruiting process. But him coming to Purdue, being able to get a degree after his experiences, he’s had at his different stops, he’s still willing to come and be a part, even though it may be a smaller part because he is backing up in All American, he’s still willing to do so because of the transparency. 

And then guys on our current team, like Trey Kaufman was an All American last year. He red shirted when he got here, he got offered from North Carolina, which is a blue blood, of the best historical programs in the country. He was a highly ranked guy, but he just wasn’t ready right away. And so instead of just, ah, that kid’s not ready, let’s go get someone else we developed him. We have a plan for him. He backed up Zach Edey. A lot of kids would’ve left, but he stayed through it and now he had a heck of a year. He has the opportunity to have his jersey be in the rafters. So in 20 years when he comes back to Purdue, his Jersey’s hanging up. But he also has the opportunity to play in the NBA. And I don’t know if he would’ve had that, if he didn’t stay through it. 

Guys like Braden Smith, we’re just fair, we’re fair, we’re honest. We don’t promise people things. it’s easy to remember what you say because you tell the kids the truth. And so Braden’s hearing the same thing that Fletch is hearing. You have opportunity here. The timings right, you got to work and come get it, but the opportunity’s here for you. And so when every kid is getting that message, that’s all you want as a basketball player. As a high school kid coming in, you just want a chance. You want to know what’s going to be fair. I want to know that, okay, you’re paying me the same thing. We’re coming in, but I’m 60 spots ranked lower. Like C.J. Cox started the most games as a freshman and he was the lowest ranked guy. It’s a production business. But you have opportunities like that because we don’t promise people things and it’s all about the work and the fit. I think all those things go into why it’s a two-way street. It’s not just lip service with us. We prove it and we have the backing. We show them and we tell them. 

Kate Young: What are some of these non-negotiables that the team holds firm even in this current landscape with the NIL? What has Coach Painter done to instill that culture within the coaching staff for you all? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah, nothing changes. We get back on the road at 3:00 AM You got class at nine. It’s your job to be in class. It’s your job to be attentive in class, pay attention. It’s your job to get your work done. It doesn’t matter how much money you make, it doesn’t matter that we’re the number one ranked team in the country. You’re here for education first. Coach tells all his recruits this, and I think it’s really cool. I think the parents get it more than the kids, but you got to have two dreams. You got to have a dream through education. You got to have a dream through basketball. Obviously he says no one’s going to be dreaming about biology, right? 

Kate Young: Maybe. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. Some people do. But you got to be able to understand you’re going to be a former player longer than you are a player. And so getting your degree matters. Having those connections and resources outside of the athletic department matters. You’re going to meet people on campus that aren’t athletes that you may be friends with the rest of your life. I think our non-negotiable rules are just doing the right thing, showing up every day, having a positive attitude, going to class, working hard. If you don’t come to Purdue and you don’t work on your game from a basketball standpoint, you’re going to stick out because everyone does. It’s a competitive environment. And when you’re in a competitive environment and things are relatively equal, you got to be able to do the necessary things to put yourself in position to reach your goals. You can’t say you want to be an NBA player, you want to be an all-conference player, you want to help Purdue win, but then you’re the 10th guy that wants to work out with our GAs. Your goals and your dreams has to match your work. And staying out of trouble, just keeping life simple. 

We try to tell that to our guys. When you recruit a lot of the guys, people talk about culture and stuff all the time. We don’t because when you come to Purdue, we’re not going to change for you. You’re probably going to succumb to the environment and the culture that’s already in place because that’s what’s won, that’s what’s developed people, that’s what’s graduated people. That’s what’s allowed Purdue to have arguably the most success the program’s had in a long time. For us we try to stick with that. It’s a cool store. Like Grady, they’re building something special hopefully at Notre Dame. Grady Eifert’s one of my best friends. 

I was on the road, I feel like I was driving in the mountains. I think I was in Utah. And Coach Shrewsbury, he’s a great dude. I look up to him from a basketball standpoint because when I was younger on staff and he was running the offense, and I learned so much from him, and I looked at him in that stratosphere of Paint of the basketball gods that you want to hopefully one day be able to be like. But Grady called me one day and he was like, “Yo, P, how often do you guys play open gym?” And I thought about it. I’m like, “Dude, I have no idea. Our guys play because it’s just what we do.” I don’t have to micromanage Braden Smith. I don’t have to micromanage Antoine West because. One’s a senior, one’s a freshman because they know what to do. It’s in place. It’s in place for you to come to Purdue and succeed. 

And so it was just cool because this is a program that paints half for 20 years. It’s at the mountain top and they’re trying to get there. It was cool for me and it puts things in perspective. I try to look for things to put things in perspective because when you’re in it and you’ve been at the same place for so long, you got to continue to be grateful and you got to continue to understand how special it is. And it’s hard. It’s really, really, really hard in life to not take things for granted. And he said that to me and it registers. It’s like, man, it’s pretty cool. We got it going on. We don’t have to worry about what 90% of college programs are worrying about. 

Kate Young: They’re playing because they want to play. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. Exactly. 

Kate Young: My mom was Grady Eifert’s, kindergarten teacher. Fort Wayne proud. 

P.J. Thompson: Wow. Good luck to your mom. 

Kate Young: When it comes to recruiting though, I know you said you don’t really have to do a lot because you already know if they have these Boilermaker traits for the most part. But are there any specific things when you’re talking to these younger high school kids that you’re specifically looking for that they will fit in with this Boilermaker mentality and culture? 

P.J. Thompson: Little things like how do they communicate, how do they receive coaching? If a coach takes them out, are they shaking hands with their teammates? Are they still engaged on the bench? If they miss five shots in a row, are they going to shoot the six? From a basketball standpoint, I think it’s easy to tell when a kid can shoot and when a kid can’t shoot. I think it’s easy to tell if a kid can be good and pick and roll in our system and if he can’t. And so for us, I think the basketball piece, for me, I think it’s easy because I know my boss, I know what he wants. I know what works at Purdue. I run our offense. I know what we’re looking for from an offensive standpoint. Obviously the pieces have to fit together, but I think it’s more so getting to know the person too. 

Like the Friday night, what are they doing? Or do they get in the gym? Do they text you back? Do they communicate Well? No one’s perfect. You’re going to have to teach them. That’s part of the gig. We got to teach them things too and we got to help them grow in areas. But I think the non-negotiable is just are they doing the right thing? Do you listen to your high school coach? Do you listen to your parents when they come on visits? I don’t think it’s magic from that standpoint. I think the basketball piece is relatively easy. For us it’s getting to know the person. 

Kate Young: Hey listeners, you can use Code THISISPURDUE for 20% off of one item at the official Purdue team store. Gear up for game day with your favorite gold and black accessories and apparel. Check out all of the new items, including the new Brianna Cannon collection at purduteamstore.com. Use code THISISPURDUE, all one word for 20% off one item. With everything that you’ve learned during your time at Purdue, what advice would you have to new coaches, even business leaders in the everyday world about building a strong culture and in an environment where things are constantly changing? 

P.J. Thompson: Just continuing to understand what does your business stand for? What are you looking for? You got to recruit the people. We’re not having 10 different conversations behind coach Painter’s back like, “Oh, we should do things this way. We should do things that way.” Whether we agree or whether we don’t agree, it’s our job to do what’s best for Purdue. And when I was younger on staff, I’ve been fortunate enough to be a J. I was picking up lunch every day. I had a different relationship with the players back then because I was here more than the coaches because as an assistant, you recruit a lot. In the last three or four weeks, I’ve been gone a ton from different states to state. And so you got to check on your guys still like the most important team and it can get lost in recruiting. But the most important team is your current team. You can’t worry about two to three years in the future. We got to worry about this year’s team because we have a special group. 

In sports you’re not going to always get to play on teams like this one. This could be some of the most fun some guys on this team ever has in their career. And I’m not talking about the guy that lowest on the totem pole. This could be Braden Smith’s best year of his life, maybe, right? It could be Trey Kaufman’s best year of his life from a team standpoint. And so we want to have an environment where. I told him in our preseason meeting, be where your feet are. Braden, you want to break the NCAA a all time assist record, but what’s your attitude going to be like if you don’t get 15 assists in the game? 

Fletcher, what’s your attitude going to be like if Omer finishes the game and you don’t and you’re a senior. Like Trey, what’s your attitude going to be like if you don’t score 20 a game? We have a special team, and so our key word that we’ve used is sacrifice. Everyone has to sacrifice. Coach Paint sacrifices every single day and he doesn’t micromanage. He allows everybody to do their job because he brings us here to do so. And I think when you’ve been somewhere for 20 years and you’ve had the experiences he’s had, I want to say it’s easier to do that. But there are coaches that aren’t like that. Because when you finally sit in that seat, I can’t know what it’s like to sit in his seat because I never have. 

Well, we’ve had Coach Lusk, he’s been a former head coach before. And so Coach Painter can relate to him because Coach Lusk is the only one that really knows what it’s like to be in that seat because it is different. And so what I’ve loved about Coach Paint’s leadership is we lost to a 16 seat. I was player of development. I was helping Terry run the offense. My job was to help teach him the offense, and I worked directly with him because of the NCAA rules. I couldn’t even be on the court. And so we lost to a 16 seed. Coach Paint decided to make a change for Purdue, and I think I was 26 years old and I’ve become the offensive coordinator. Purdue. I had the best job in the country, in my opinion as a 26-year-old, we’re number one in the country. I still think as a 29-year-old, I had the best job in the country. As a 29-year-old it was a process to get there. And Coach Paint didn’t give me the offense and he didn’t sit him office every day and shoot a thousand ideas. When we’re in the course of a game, he’s not telling me a thousand things to run. He lets me have my white board and he lets me do what I see. 

And then after we come together, we figure out what went well, we figure out what didn’t and we move on. But as a leader, you can’t micromanage. You got to trust the people you’ve put in position to do their job. And if they’re not doing their job, you got to make changes. And so I would tell for a business leader that’s not a head coach, you have to get the right people. And that’s been the theme, I feel like of this podcast. But Purdue has the right people in place outside of athletics, and I think we have the right people in place in athletics to allow Purdue as a whole to be one of the best programs colleges in the country outside of basketball. 

Kate Young: I love that. Be where your feet are. Soak it in. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. 

Kate Young: While you can, right? 

P.J. Thompson: Exactly. 

Kate Young: Okay, so the upcoming season, there’s a lot of buzz. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. 

Kate Young: I don’t know if you like talking about that, but is that a ton of pressure too? 

P.J. Thompson: I think pressure comes with it. It’s our job to win. Purdue is a place that’s won. It’s our job to win. And we understand that. I’ve been on talented teams that didn’t make a final four. I thought my team, my senior year was good enough to make a final four. Isaac Haas gets hurt. I think Jaden Ivey’s last year in college we lost to Saint Peters. I think that team should have been a final four team. We didn’t. We’re not going to just snap our fingers and we’re in the NCAA tournament. It’s a process to get there. We have to be great in the summer now we got to be great in the preseason. Now practice have started. We have to prepare. It’s not going to be perfect. We’re not going to win every game we play no matter how bad we want to. It’s our job to put ourselves in positions to have the best March in April possible but it’s no guarantee because we got Oscar Cluff and he’s a great rebounder that doesn’t mean Purdue’s going to be a great rebounder team. We still got to do the job. You still have to actively go get the rebound and you have to do it every possession. 

So it’s not magic because we have a talented team, because we have a lot of guards that can do a lot of different things, and we haven’t had that all the time in the past. That doesn’t always equate to success. You never know. Being where your feet are attacking every day and just getting better, and then you just want to put yourself in the best position. Historically, the number one seeds, they have a better chance to get to the promise lane. And so we want to continue the season to put ourselves in position to have a great ending, but it’s never perfect. I’ve been a part of teams. I’ve seen teams. We lost four seniors that year. I think that team, I was overseas playing professionally that year. I want to say they started six and four ish they were a 10th of a second from going to a final four and nobody thought that team would. And so just because this team’s talented, just because we have seniors and we have young talented players, there’s no guarantee. 

And so for us, just stay in process space. We talk about it in basketball if you go one for 12 over the course of a season, continue to take the shots that you’re going to shoot because you’ve proven to be one of the best shooters in the country, but to stay in process space, you can’t live always in the present. And so we take that from an individual standpoint and a team standpoint, and then hopefully at the end of the year we put ourselves in a good position to accomplish some of our goals. 

Kate Young: What does it mean to you in the team that the final four is in Indianapolis? 

P.J. Thompson: I’m excited. It’s cool. Since I’ve been on staff, we go to the final fours, and so obviously that one year we participated in it and it was unbelievable. It’s going to be pretty cool being in Indianapolis where some of our kids are from and being right up the street for us. But again, if the final four was in Utah, we would have the same goals to go there and win it. And so it just happens it worked out that way. Maybe stuff happens for a reason, I don’t know. But it’ll be pretty cool. I know that if we’re fortunate enough to get there, I know we’re going to have a great deal of support. We felt that last year playing Houston in Indianapolis. So I’m excited. It’s going to be great for the city. I think the city does a great job of hosting events. You saw it was cool after our season, the Pacers going on their run, the Indiana Fever, they’ve had a heck of a year despite a lot of adversity with injuries and stuff. It’s a basketball state. Midwest is a basketball place. Indiana’s arguably the best basketball state in the world. So it’ll be cool for the city and hopefully for some Purdue fans if we can do our job. 

Kate Young: So we have Daniel Jacobson, of course, Braden Smith, Fletcher Loyer, Trey Kaufman-Renn. You talked a little bit about Oscar Cluff, incredible team, people coming back, people transferring. What are you most excited about for this upcoming season? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. I’m just excited to just get better. We are on such a good team like this. Each person on our roster is going to win us a game at some point Aaron Fine, Sam King, their walk-ons and every single day, Jack Luzt, Slim, every single day, they work their butts off to help Purdue become better, only in hopes that we beat a team by 20 or 30 and they can hopefully get in at the end of the game and play in front of the fans. And so when you’re a part of special teams, you appreciate everybody. Because all the work that they do, it doesn’t get seen. But every single day they make Purdue better. Every single day because they don’t make the money that our guys make. They don’t have articles written about them. They’re not on cool podcasts like this, but they love Purdue and they care about making Purdue better. 

I always talk about my goal when I was a freshman, when I left Purdue as a player, I wanted to leave the jersey in a better place than it was. And now in transition to this side, I tell the kids the same thing. Leave the jersey in a better place. And the cool part is we’re reaching heights that we’ve never reached before. And so when you can continue to leave the jersey in a better place, that’s how you become one of the best programs in the country. And I feel like we are that. Over a course of a whole season, man, it’s going to be different guys. It’s not just going to be Braden, TK, Fletch as the older guys that’s been through it. It’s going to be the freshmen, it’s going to be the sophomores, it’s going to be the juniors. And so Raleighy’s been through adversity with injuries. 

Daniel’s been through adversities with injuries. Guys want to play more minutes, and we have a lot of people. They’re ready because of what they’ve gone through in the past. And so I’m just excited to see our guys man play in front of our fans. I know our fans are itching to watch us play. We’re itching to get out there and play for our fans and for the Purdue faithful. So I’m just excited to get going. You got to stay in the process. Like right now I’m so tired of practice and we just got started, so I want to play somebody else. I’m tired of playing against each other. I want to be on the same team. I’m a team guy. I think the people we have in our organization, like I talked about in our community, I think that’s all we need. I think we have a great deal of support. I think we have really good players. I think we have a great staff. I’m just excited to go to battle with them and experience a season because there’s so many different highs and lows. 

I think when people watched us play against Auburn last year or watch this play against Marquette or watch this play against Texas A&M they’re like Purdue might be in trouble. And so as a coach, we schedule hard to help us try to win a game at the end of the year, and you watch us play against High Point, you watch us play against McNeese State and then you watch us play against Houston and it makes sense. It makes sense why we did what we did to get to that point. During that process though, you got to relax and understand it’s a bigger goal at hand and it’s a process to getting where we want to go. So right now we’re in that where we just got to stay in that moment and you’re not going to win the Big 10 whatever today is. You got to just continue to take steps in the right direction. 

Kate Young: When people look back at this era of Purdue basketball, what do you hope they say about it? 

P.J. Thompson: When it’s all said and done? I just hope Paint gets the respect he deserves to be honest. I’m at Purdue and I want to stay at Purdue because I want Coach Paint to get his recognition he deserves. I’ve said as a player, I thought he was one of the best in the world at what he does. I think being on staff with him, I think he’s one of the best in the world at what he does. I want to do it for him personally because he changed my life and he gave him the opportunity and he didn’t have to and not a lot of people did. And so his belief in me is bigger than words. I don’t need Coach Paint to text me and tell me loves me. He does it with his actions. I want to do it for him, but also want to do it for the players because we’ve had so many players put on a jersey and as a coach, I’m learning every day, and a big part of the gig is recruiting, and I mentioned it before, but the most important team is your current team. 

But also with that, there’s been a lot of people that put on the jersey that in the last 45 years and prior, that deserved this feeling that we have now, but they didn’t get it. They deserved to get paid and they didn’t get it. You want to do it for Coach, and I think that’s at the forefront for me, but I want to do it for the people or guys that chose to come to Purdue. It’s so hard. It’s so many times in recruiting you get told no. But Purdue is a special place again because of the people and the players we’ve gotten. So I want to do it for them because they should feel a part of it too. 

You don’t have that turnout at the alumni game if they don’t. It’s a lot of people that when you look back, they helped us get to this point. We don’t get to this point without the players that came before us. It’s just not possible. There’s been a lot of people that continue to raise the level of Purdue basketball to give these guys this opportunity. And so along with Coach doing it for those guys, because at the end of the day when those guys come back to campus, it’s cool to see the smile on their face and to hear the stories they tell. Like Purdue, you’re four or five, six years, however long you’re here, it’s 60, 70-year-old men that come back, 50-year-old men, 40-year-old men. It seems like they’re most excited about that time in their life. 

So it’s a lot of people, the fans, I think they deserve it. Supporting the team for so long as a fan, it can drive you crazy, the ups and the downs of things. But one thing I don’t think fans understand what puts into it too. There’s not a second of the day that goes by that I don’t think about Purdue basketball, not a second. I have other relationships. I have a girlfriend. I have family that get put on the back burner because of the gig. And I think fans don’t really understand that we’re normal people too, and there’s a lot of people that want Purdue to be successful. But I think the culmination of all those things is what I want to look back and be like did it for them. 

Kate Young: Okay. We’ll wrap it up here coach. You’ve talked a ton about Coach Painter, your respect for him. You’re clearly so passionate about Purdue basketball. Is there a dream and a hope for you to maybe be a head coach one day? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah, I think that’s the goal for me. I definitely want to be a head coach. I think I work hard to do that. I’m learning. I don’t want to make mistakes. I think people rush into things. You feel like you’re ready. You feel like you’ve gotten enough experience. I’m a big believer that everything happens for a reason. I’m here for a reason. The number one focus that I have right now is making Purdue better, it’s helping this team win. I think my individual goals will play out how they play out. I’m more focused on helping Purdue win and learning and getting better. 

I’m 29. I feel like I’m just getting started. There’s not a day that goes by where I’m not learning, asking questions. Like when Coach Paint talks, he probably thinks I’m crazy because sometimes I don’t want to even respond. I’m just taking everything in and listening and it’s really a one-way conversation, but I’m listening because I look up to him and I love him and I respect everything he’s been through to get to this point. I understand how hard it’s because I’m in it. Yeah, of course, I want to be a head coach one day. That’s obviously the goal. I think most people want to do that. I’m not different than any other assistant coach that wants to be a head coach, but it’s a stepping stone to get there. I’m in no rush to become a head coach. I want to be the best assistant coach for Purdue that I can be. And I think if I can give my best to Purdue, I think that I can help Purdue become better because I feel like I’ve done that for the last 10 years. And I don’t think statistically it’s going to show up as an assistant coach now, that’s not the goal for Brandon Brantley to get all the credit, right. He’s great at what he does. It’s not the goal for myself to get the credit. 

We do what we do to help Purdue become successful. You can’t forget about why you got in the business. I got in the business to become a head coach, but I ultimately got in the business because I’ve been around a lot of great players my whole life. I didn’t get to Purdue and just start being around great players. I’ve been around great players my whole life, and I’ve seen them be lied to. I’ve seen them be manipulated. I’ve seen them not be able to go back to their school. I’ve seen them not have relationships with their head coach, and so I got into the business because I want to help people. I want to help players become better players, but I want to help people become better men because I think the world needs better people at the forefront. You can’t forget about why you do things. That’s the truth. I really want these guys … I don’t want them to look back and be like, “Man, we were in great offense in college.” I want them to look back and be like, they were around great people that cared about them and helped them get through whatever they have coming for them in the future. So it’s a long-winded way of answering your question, but yeah, obviously I want to be a head coach one day. 

Kate Young: This has been an incredible conversation. Is there anything else you want to tell the Purdue basketball faithful all of our Boilermaker community before we end the interview today? 

P.J. Thompson: Just, thank you. Thank you. It’s not magic. People showing up and having 89 straight sellouts, like I’ve mentioned. I feel like I’ve said it a thousand times, but Purdue people are really great people. They fill up the stands, they support our team. We’re very thankful for that. There’s not a lot of people that can run out to a sold out arena every time they step on the court, whether they’re playing an exhibition game or whether they’re playing for a Big 10 Championship. And so for us, man, we’re just grateful and thankful of the support. You don’t take it for granted going to a restaurant and people just wanting to shake your hand or take a picture or just say hello to you. That doesn’t ever get boring for me. I’ll never tell somebody no, because it’s not like that everywhere. And so these people invest in us just as much as we invest in the game. 

I’m just thankful for the support of the Purdue community. It’s continued to reach levels that are unimaginable. I was playing in Europe. I was in Denmark. It’s a small country. It’s a very average basketball league, and I’m warming up, and I see … I had it on my Instagram for a while. But I see a dad and two kids in Purdue gear. And I’m like, “What in the heck is going on?” And the game was played, and the first thing, I couldn’t even shake the opponent’s hands and the coach’s hands. I just went up to them and I’m just like, “Wow. What are you guys doing here?” And they were there for me. I’m in Denmark, man. So that stuff you can’t take for granted. I’ve been to China to play basketball. I’ve been to Taipei and to see Purdue Jerseys and to see Purdue fans in different parts of the world, man, that’s unheard of. Purdue is just different. And you don’t really understand it until you get to experience it. And when you try to tell people that, it sounds like you’re a car salesman like every other coach in America, but it’s really not. Purdue is special because of the people. And so I would just say thank you. 

Kate Young: That gives me goosebumps. That’s incredible. Well, we can’t thank you enough for your time, coach, and best of luck this season. 

P.J. Thompson: Thank you. 

Kate Young: Wow. Our whole team loved getting to know P.J. And as I said earlier, Purdue Athletics is incredibly lucky to have a leader like him. If you want to watch more videos featuring P.J. in our Purdue Brand Studio podcast studio, you can head over to our podcast, YouTube channel youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with Jon Garcia and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast, YouTube Promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production manager is Dalani Young. 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/thisispurdue. And as always, boiler up.

Allie Gabriel: 

This is Allie Gabriel, and you’re listening to, this is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators, who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. Working 

Allie Gabriel: 

Well to me means thriving at work and at home because I truly believe you cannot be well if you are suffering at work or suffering at home because these worlds are not as separate as we want them to be. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to Allie Gabriel, the Thomas J. Howitt Chair in Management in the Mitch Daniels School of Business and Faculty Director of Purdue University’s Center for Working Well. Allie is an award-winning advocate for mental health and well-being in the workplace within Purdue’s Daniels School of Business. And she leads timely research efforts to understand how employees can thrive at work both in person and virtually. As part of this, she leads the Center for Working Well, which is at the forefront of various challenges facing modern workforces. Allie’s research and findings have been featured globally in publications like the Harvard Business Review and on outlets like CNBC and Forbes, and she recently added another accolade to her impressive resume when she was named a fellow of the American Psychological Association in recognition of her contributions in the field of psychology this summer. 

Today we’re diving into so much with Allie. We’re talking about managing stress and burnout, ways you can improve your work-life balance and emotional regulation, tips on becoming a better workplace leader, how to support working parents, and a phenomenon called Zoom fatigue. That’s right, Allie’s research on this shows there’s a reason behind why remote workers are exhausted after being on back-to-back on-camera meetings daily. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Allie. 

We are so excited to have you. Allie, welcome to This is Purdue. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Thank you for having me. 

Kate Young: 

We’re excited to get into all the things, work well-being mental health. We’re thrilled to dive into your impactful work here. So let’s start at the beginning. What would you say the state of mental health is right now in today’s world? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, that’s a big question to start with because I feel like everybody wants this magic bullet of an answer of, “You just need to do this one thing and it’s all going to be better.” So, a couple of things right away. I think the state of mental health and well-being is just in a rough spot. We are inundated with all sorts of stressors, whether it’s stress at work, stress at home, the news coverage is stressful. We’re just kind of inundated all of the time with information that might feel personally relevant, personally impactful. And the reality is our brains are not programmed to handle that much information. You might have that feeling of information overload where you’re like, “Wow, I’m just processing a lot.” And so I think right now there’s just so much uncertainty. There’s a lot of information coming at people and folks are struggling, and I think what they’re struggling with is how to turn it off, how to step away from work, how to prioritize recovery, how to not feel guilty about prioritizing recovery. 

And so when I am thinking about this for myself or talking to people, a lot of folks are saying, “It feels like I am just going, going, going, going, going, and I’m looking for an off ramp and I don’t know how to find it.” And I think people want this magical answer of, what one of the terms I actually like the least is work-life balance. I think that sets people up for failure of thinking it’s work and whatever your non-work life is, and they’re just going to be equal in this total equilibrium state. And that’s just not how it works. Things are off kilter all the time. And so I like to tell people, “Okay, let’s not think about balance. Let’s think about the things that you value and how we can weight those depending on different seasons that we’re in.” Some seasons, work can be really important. You can sync to that. Some seasons your life, like a non-work life is going to be really important. Let’s sync into that. Sometimes it’s your community, whatever that is for you. 

So, yeah, I just think there’s a lot going on right now. I think people are craving balance. They want it and it’s just hard because it is a constant moving target. It’s a constant work in progress. 

Kate Young: 

A lot I think is there are good days and bad days, so when you have a really bad day, you at least for me, I can wake up and reset again at least. And so I liked how you said you’re way out, what’s important to you, but also knowing that there’s going to be rougher days than others, right? 

Allie Gabriel: 

There are. And our brains play a lot of tricks on us and our brains are wired to remember the bad stuff. So if you think about the day you had yesterday and I asked you, “Think about something that was really salient that happened to you,” the odds are pretty high that you’d be like, “Well, it was going pretty good, but this really stressful thing happened. I had this interaction, I had this email I didn’t like.” And that might overweight the plethora of good things that happened, that you had a great coffee date, that you had a great phone call, you had an outreach that you were really excited about, you had a great yoga class. So our brain, oh, going gym, I’m and ruminating on the negative things. And so we really need to make a concerted effort to rewire that and to say, “No, actually on a given day, things are pretty good sometimes,” and let’s think about that and reset off of that versus just ruminating and thinking about the most stressful things that are happening to us. 

Kate Young: 

So what are some of the common signs of burnout? How do you identify it and kind of course correct and pivot from there? 

Allie Gabriel: 

So the running joke in our field is that we tend to study the things that we’re not very good at. So I study things like burnout and well-being and recovery because this is something that I’ve struggled with too over the years. And when it comes to noticing burnout, I think it creeps in very gradually. And if we don’t notice it, it can really spiral out of control. So sometimes it’s just feeling for a lot of people, it just starts feeling really exhausted. Like, “I feel mentally fatigued. I feel like I’m having a really hard time focusing. I used to be able to concentrate and really immerse myself in my work, and now my brain feels unfocused. It feels distracted. I’m starting to feel really disconnected from things I really liked doing before I don’t feel as identified.” And all of these little signs start to give you cues, okay, something is wrong. 

And it starts as just daily emotional exhaustion. It starts as daily disconnect from the things that we used to care about. And over time that keeps compounding. So if you don’t go ahead and realize like, “Hey, I’ve got to take a step back. Or your body can also physiologically respond to this, you get headaches, you get eye strain. If for me personally, I know I’m starting to get really burned out and stressed when I get this knot in my shoulder, it’s always on my left side. And it’s like this telltale sign like, “Hey, you’re going way too hard. You’re carrying tension, you’re carrying stress. You’ve got to start letting it go.” And so I think for a long time there was this sense that burnout was this badge of honor. I call it the suffering Olympics. We all for a long time, were like, “Oh, we should get a gold medal in suffering. Are you burned out? I’m more burned out than you.” 

And this used to be how we all talked about it, and now there’s more of an awareness of, “Wait a second, burnout is a problem. It’s going to affect every aspect of how your body functions, how your mind functions. And so looking for those little cues of, “Hey, I’m not really focused anymore, having a hard time concentrating. I feel really mentally fatigued. I don’t feel sharp.” Those are cues that, hey, burnout is starting to creep in and we need to put a stop to it as much as possible and find the source, figure out where it is. It could be the type of project you’re working on, it could be your whole job. That’s a rough day if it’s your whole job, because then we have to have a bigger conversation of how you fix that. It could be a particular person that you’re having a difficult time interacting with and maybe you need to recalibrate a relationship. But I just think even from a young age, we’re just kind of programmed to not pay attention to these things or to push through, keep pushing, keep pushing, and eventually it’ll go away and it just kind of compounds to a point where it gets pretty problematic. 

Kate Young: 

Allie dives into some real life examples and practical tips from her research on how to address burnout head on. 

Allie Gabriel: 

If it’s your boss, for instance, or a coworker you’re closely intertwined with, you can’t just go to your boss and be like, “Hey, you’re burning me out. Can you stop?” We need to rethink this. And we have had people in our research, for instance, say like, “Hey, I did realize it was my boss or it was this project team and that was my cue that I needed to find a new job. That was actually a point where I realized I needed to choose a career, a profession that really suited me and my well-being.” That is a really extreme example. It’s costly. That is finding a job. I’ve done it a couple of times. It’s exhausting, it’s stressful. So that’s a really big correction. But I think there are ways that you can then put boundaries around relationships to try to say, “Okay, these interactions may be stressful. So what can I do before the interaction is about to begin? I’m going to take five minutes and really ground myself. Afterwards, I’m going to go for a walk.” 

I joke that after really stressful meetings or really draining moments, I’ll take an emotional lap is what I call it. And I quite literally will go put my headphones on, take a walk out on our beautiful campus and just really recalibrate and reset. So if you know you’re about to walk into one of those interactions, building time for recovery and wellbeing around that is really important. You can also think about reframing it, saying, “Hey, not my favorite interaction I’m about to go through.” Or, “Hey, I’m about to be with a really, really tricky coworker. They might be going through a hard time too.” 

So maybe they’re being really tough on me and I’m struggling with that. Or maybe we just don’t see eye to eye. That’s okay. It’s not my job to necessarily be best friends and get along with everybody, but give somebody a little bit of grace realizing like, Hey, you don’t really know what they’re going through. They could be going through a lot on their own that could be feeding into some of the problematic behaviors, your experiences you’re having. And so I think recognizing too, just some of the humanness of other people sometimes can help if you are experiencing a lot of burnout. 

Kate Young: 

Chances are you’ve experienced those seasons in your lives where personal burnout is impacting your professional career. Allie shares more about trying to achieve success on your own terms when it comes to our personal and professional lives. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Really think about what success means to you in both domains and realize that you don’t have to strive to do everything at once. So I think that’s something I struggle with. In my research, I speak to a lot of working mothers who are high achieving amazing women, and they will just talk about being totally humbled by motherhood and the fact that they have had to recalibrate expectations and realize, “Okay, doing it all is setting me up to burn out, so I want to do it smarter. I want to think about what does it mean to be successful at work right now. That means showing up as my best self, putting in a lot of effort, building good relationships and clocking out, and then I get to go home. And what does it mean to be successful at home? It means being at the dinner table with everybody. It means making it to swim practice. Today, it means I’m making it to gymnastics for my five-year-old,” right? 

And so I think really taking some time, and I’ve done this a few times where I say, what is it that I’m looking for right now and what are the goals I have and how can I stagger them in a way that it feels like I’m not missing out on something? Really what happens is it feels like if we prioritize a goal at home with family and with friends with your community, that it has to take away from a goal at work. And I don’t think it does, but what it might mean is just realizing, “Hey, this is not the time for this big community role that I really, really want because I’ve got this exciting thing going on at work, so let me see where that takes me,” and that will take you somewhere. And then you get the opportunity to say, “Okay, now I want to pivot and I want to think about this goal over here.” So rather than thinking, “I just got to do it all at once,” because that’s also the recipe for burning out. Because then you’re never going to stop. Then that means you just have no off. There’s no off ramp to anything, and that’s a pretty exhausting place to be. 

Kate Young: 

I think we all after the pandemic are familiar with Zoom, unfortunately, or fortunately. 

Allie Gabriel: 

We all thought it was going to be gone by now. There was a funny moment where in tweet we’re like, “This is just temporary.” 

Kate Young: 

“It’s a blip.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s not. 

Kate Young: 

A lot of podcasts are recorded on Zoom still. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

But your research identified a phenomenon called Zoom fatigue. Tell us more about that. What does it mean for people and for organizations? 

Allie Gabriel: 

This is a project I never thought I would do because one, I didn’t think there’d be a pandemic and wouldn’t have to do it, but I was coming off of my maternity leave with my first kiddo, like a true pandemic baby, and one of my really close colleagues and friends in the field, Kristin Shockley, who’s at Auburn University, reached out to me and was like, so I’ve been thinking about studying Zoom fatigue. People just seem really exhausted being on camera all the time. And I was like, “Sure.” One of my favorite people to work with. So I was like, of course. Let’s see what we have here. And we had a company who was largely a remote workforce already before COVID. They allowed us to come in and study their employees for a month and manipulate who was taking all of their video calls on camera and who was taking them off of camera. Because what Zoom fatigue is, is that feeling of exhaustion, about having to essentially turn your camera on and be present and ready to engage in a video meeting. 

And there’s lots of components that might go into that. You are trying to get your space ready. A lot of us didn’t have at the beginning of the pandemic curated home offices that were beautiful and lovely. It could be physically getting ready, feeling like you’re put together enough to be on camera. It could be keeping your pets or your kids. There was that classic news episode- 

Kate Young: 

Yes, yes. When the baby bust in. 

Allie Gabriel: 

… of the guy who the baby bust in, and the poor mother’s like in the back, like, “Oh my goodness!” So Zoom fatigue is kind of the mental load of being on camera and having to deal with all those things. What we found with this set of employees was that the days that they were on camera, they reported feeling more fatigued on a day-to-day basis, and that then contributed to other problems, right? Because what’s the reason why people want cameras on? Because they want to know you’re paying attention. But what we found is when people felt that Zoom fatigue, they reported being less engaged that day, they also were less inclined to really be proactive and speak up. We found these effects were more pronounced for women. And if you think about when we were studying this, it was when there was still a lot of daycare closures and school closures, and so there are pressures associated with that, with caregiving roles. It was also more stressful for newcomers. Imagine starting at a new company during COVID and you’re on a meeting and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’m on a Zoom right now with the CEO, with the top management team, with my boss. What is this jargon? Do they think I look professional? Does it look like I am talking in a dorm room?” All these concerns that you could have. 

And I will say when we did the Zoom fatigue research and then we started talking about it, I was like, “Yeah, this is just a couple year thing.” But no, people are still like, “No, it’s exhausting. Being on camera is exhausting.” The other thing that contributes to it too is you’re so aware when you’re on camera, you are so aware. You see yourself and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, is that my face?” 

Kate Young: 

Totally. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Like, “Is that my face?” 

Kate Young: 

“Is that what I really look like?” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“Is that what I look like when I talk,” because right now you and I are talking, we’re probably not thinking about as much what we look like or how we’re presenting ourselves, but on Zoom, you’re very aware of that. 

Kate Young: 

You’re watching yourself. 

Allie Gabriel: 

You are the number of times I’m distracted just watching myself. 

Kate Young: 

And that sounds vain, but I mean, who hasn’t felt that? 

Allie Gabriel: 

No, you’re just so hyper aware of it, and that’s distracting, right? Because that’s just not how we naturally want to interact with other people, so that was our Zoom fatigue work, and it’s still being talked about. We’re still working with companies and organizations who are like, “Yeah, we’re still struggling with this problem with our employees.” 

Kate Young: 

And has it resulted in, “Hey, you can have your camera off?” I know something that we were like, “Let’s stop with the lunchtime stuff. People are trying to eat lunch.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

Oh yeah, that’s the worst. 

Kate Young: 

And nobody wants to eat on camera. 

Allie Gabriel: 

And some people view that as rude when you eat on camera. We have some follow-up work we’ve been doing, and we asked people, what does it mean to be rude or disrespectful on a virtual call? And there were some typical things you would think like being late time waste, not managing time, holding people too long, but another big one was appearance, showing up, scattered and not like you were put together or ready for the call. And then eating. People were like, “I think it’s really rude and people are eating.” 

Kate Young: 

If you have 10 meetings in a row, you have to eat. 

Allie Gabriel: 

And that’s the problem. I think when we started relying on Zoom, all of a sudden at some point we all decided we don’t need breaks anymore. We’re like, “You know what I can do is I can have a meeting at 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, back, to back, to back, to back, and this is fine because I’m home.” 

Kate Young: 

“I’m not commuting, I’m not…” 

Allie Gabriel: 

Right. “I’m not commuting. I’m secretly in my sweatpants. I can do whatever I want,” but going back to where we started, that also is leading to burnout, because we’re not taking care of ourselves anymore. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. That’s so interesting. What do you think organizations and leaders can do to better help their employees thrive at work, whether it’s in person or remote work? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Have intentional conversations of what it means to be at work, which sounds so obvious, but I don’t think we do that. I don’t think we have very intentional conversations when we all get together for a meeting to say, “Okay, what’s the tone of the meeting today? What do we want to get out of this? What do we want to do today? If virtual, what norms do we want to set around being on camera or not being on camera? Do we all want to call it and just get on the phone and all go for a walk? “That’s been my new favorite pivot, by the way, is rather than sitting on Zoom, I’ll send notes to people and be like, “Why don’t we actually just call each other-” 

Kate Young: 

Walk and talk? I love it. 

Allie Gabriel: 

“… and I get back on the phone and get outside and walk and actually get some movement in.” I think having some intentionality behind meetings, behind gathering behind what is in person, what can be virtual or hybrid, and really thinking about what it means to be at work. What do we want the workday to feel like? That would be really nice if everybody did that because instead what tends to happen is we all show up to work and we just start. It’s very rare that you actually have a moment of collection where you’re like, “Hey, everybody, what’s the vibe today?” We all try to get out of this. We’re all here. What are our collective goals? What do we want to work on? How do we want today to feel? How do we want to view breaks and our well-being? We don’t do that, and that’s a quick fix that doesn’t cost anything. It costs a little bit of time, but I think it can have a really profound impact then on how people experience their time at work and make it feel more in tuned with how they feel and how the collective’s feeling. 

Kate Young: 

I think even I’ll catch myself typing a message to someone first thing in the morning, and then I’m like, “Whoa, whoa. First of all, good morning.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“Hi, who are you?” 

Kate Young: 

Just right out the gate and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, Kate.” No. If you were in person, you would be like, “Hey, what’s up? Good morning. Yeah, nice to see you.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

Those are the small talk pleasantries. 

Kate Young: 

That we’re missing with the virtual and remote work? I think so, yeah. Oh, there’s so many things. We could talk for hours. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, that’s fine. We can do that. 

Kate Young: 

Yeah. Okay, so we’ve covered topics that you’ve experienced firsthand. You had your first daughter, your baby in March of 2020, literally right before the world kind of shut down. And how did that experience influence your path today? Yeah, yeah. 

Allie Gabriel: 

So not only was she a pandemic baby, so she was born weekly on March 10th, 2020. So literally we walked into the hospital in one world and we walked out in a different one. And when you’re pregnant, and I had a pretty tough pregnancy physically at the end, got the flu, was on bed rest, the whole thing. So we weren’t paying as much attention. We knew, for instance, that COVID was a thing, but we were not paying attention to the reality that was setting in, because you’re just, “Oh my gosh, I’m about to have a small human for the first time.” What are we going to do? And I have the flu and we need to make sure I’m healthy, and so on. So we just went in blind. And so we were driving home and we put on the news and we’re listening and we’re like, “Okay.” And it just immediately was in lockdown, which was incredibly isolating. 

I think there’s already lots of challenges being a new parent or just being a parent, having a baby in general. You want that village that’s so hard to curate on a good day, and we just immediately found ourselves completely locked down with this little newborn baby, precious, precious, newborn baby who’s now five and thriving and going to kindergarten, which is so hard to believe. But at the time, it was really isolating. It was really, really lonely. We were lucky that we had some support from my parents and a little pandemic bubble, so to speak, but there’s no play dates, there’s no transitioning back to work and feeling like you can reclaim part of yourself, because at least you get to dress like a real person again, right? Yeah. 

You get to feel like you’re using a different part of your brain, and truly it was not a good place for me. I had really, really struggled with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety and just found myself asking a lot of pretty existential questions about what are we doing, what did we do? And where that ended up was me feeling really passionate about helping other, I was already passionate about helping other working moms because I feel like all parents obviously are doing a lot, but I really believe working moms are doing the most in terms of just the physicality of pregnancy and childbirth and the recovery and then the struggle to reenter the workforce and feel like yourself again. But then going through this experience, I was like, “Okay, if I’m suffering and I feel pretty privileged that we have financial stability and some support, what is going on for other people?” 

And that really was a catalyst to asking bigger questions about how can we support people when they’re coming back to work? How can we better support women who might be going through postpartum depression? Because that diagnosis happens when people are on parental leave usually. It’s usually in the first two to 12 weeks that you get diagnosed. It could be a year. And so if you think about where that intersects with a parental leave, it’s smack in the middle. So you’re not only had this crazy life event because childbirth is crazy, having just started again five months ago, it’s crazy. But you go through that and then you layer on this really difficult diagnosis and now you have to come back to work and pretend like you’re okay and that you’re not fundamentally changed. And so it really just showed me how much work we still have to do, and I feel really, really lucky that I get to spend time asking those questions and trying to understand those experiences. 

Kate Young: 

So based on that, what do you think organizations can do to better support the success of working parents who are coming back from parental leave? 

Allie Gabriel: 

I will say, so we just had our second baby five months ago. 

Kate Young: 

Congrats. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah. So you’re one of the first humans I’ve seen. 

Kate Young: 

I hope it’s a positive experience. 

Allie Gabriel: 

This is a positive experience. I am like, “Oh, this is…” I see lights and beautiful things here. No, I had it five months ago, and it’s been as hard as my first experience was. That’s how blissful and wonderful the second time around has been. And part of that of course is it’s a different time, but I think we were very lucky here to have a lot of proactivity in how people approached me going out on leave. And I think that is the best thing organizations can do. So there tends to be a lot of reactivity around working moms like, “Okay, there’s taboo around disclosing when a pregnancy is happening.” Or women may feel that there is, right? That you can’t share early. Candidly, I had to tell somebody here at Purdue last summer when I was I think five weeks along, which was risky, but I was thinking ahead about teaching. I was like, “Hey, I love my job. I don’t want to teach 38 weeks pregnant, so can we think about how this is going to work,” right? Or people don’t want to, maybe they don’t say it at all. 

Kate Young: 

Exactly. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Well, and going back to Zoom, there were some women who had full pregnancies during COVID and could hide it because of how Zoom is set up. And so I think because of a bunch of factors, there’s a lot of reactivity to it, that people react and you’re like, “oh, okay, you’re pregnant. Okay, nobody’s done that here in a while-” 

Kate Young: 

“So what do we do?” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“Let’s figure out how this works. And I think you get some leave. I don’t know if it’s paid,” and there’s just not clear support structures, versus having more proactivity, letting people know ahead of time, “Hey, here’s some policies we have. Here’s some things in place. So if this is something that happens in your life, we are ready and here’s what we can offer you.” 

Kate Young: 

“And we support you.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“We support you. Here’s what we can offer you.” Having a coalition of other folks who have done this where maybe your a boss and you yourself have not used this benefits, you’re like, “I actually don’t know. However, we have a working moms group here or just a parent group and let’s get you over to those folks and they can tell you about their experiences on leave,” and that’s kind of what happened here is I had a lot of support and then they connected me to other people who either helped write the leave policies or had used the leave policies. 

And there was just a lot of creativity and proactivity of saying, “Okay, let’s think really creatively about your teaching. Let’s think about how this is going to look for advising students. Let’s think about what your next year will look like.” And I love that. And again, think that’s an easy thing organizations can do. The other part is to really think about how you celebrate people when they come back to work. So I think it’s twofold. One is celebrating that they’re back to work, that they were not on vacation. We have interviewed so many women who are like, “I’m so tired of people telling me to enjoy my vacation. It’s maternity leave.” 

Kate Young: 

Not vacation. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, not vacation. Lovely time, but totally different. But acknowledging that somebody just came back and that you’ve missed their contributions. So what happens sometimes is somebody comes back and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, thank goodness you’re back because it has been so chaotic since you left. We have had a cover for you. Have fun in your inbox because we have just blown it up.” 

And imagine that experience versus someone being like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so glad you’re back. Let’s take the next week and let’s just gradually catch you up to speed and you just spend the next week control-alt-deleting your inbox, and let’s start over and really welcome you back, ease you in. Why don’t you sit in meetings to hear what we’ve been doing?” And then the other part of it is like, “Hey, let’s also acknowledge that you’re now a mom and can you show me your baby pictures? How are you feeling?” How are feeling right now? And just asking again, these humanizing questions I think is really important for moms to feel like they’re being seen, both as a valued member of the organization and just a valued person who’s had this incredible thing happen to them. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. And it’s thoughtful and it’s… 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s thoughtful. 

Kate Young: 

And it’s humanizing, like you said. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, I love my department here with organizational behavior and human resources at the Daniels school. They’re incredible. There was a meal train, some colleagues showing up being like, “You don’t have to see me.” And I was like, beautiful because I’m not fit for consumption, so no thank you. And they’re like, “You don’t need to even answer the door, but on your doorstep is a chicken pot pie and a container of fruit.” Or, “Hey, I dropped a Starbucks at your doorstep. We’re thinking of you.” And just these little touch points that were like, “Okay, people see that I’ve gone through this and they’re valuing that. And that’s really lovely and I think speaks to this place as a whole. It’s just a good community.” 

Kate Young: 

Yes. And speaking of Daniels school, you came two years ago. You were part of Purdue’s first wave of Movable Dream hires. So what were your key experiences that led you to become a Boilermaker? 

Allie Gabriel: 

We’ve just been so happy to be here. So my educational background, so I’m a product of the Big 10 in the Midwest is how I like to view it. So I did my undergraduate degree at Penn State. So I love the Boilermakers. I do love the Nittany Lions too. 

Kate Young: 

That’s okay. That’s okay. 

Allie Gabriel: 

So did my undergrad at Penn State and just fell in love with I think Big 10 campuses are special and have just something about them and the students and the faculty that work there in the communities. So that was my first college experience, and I just immediately fell in love with that. I then went on to do my PhD in organizational psychology at University of Akron in Ohio, not too far from here. And that’s where I met my husband. He’s from that area as well. And then we kind of did this national tour. 

So I spent a couple years in Richmond, Virginia at Virginia Commonwealth University, and then we spent eight really incredible years out in the desert in Tucson, Arizona at the University of Arizona. And it was great. I grew so much. We had so much fun. Winter was great. Summer, not so much. Winter was great. And I professionally always pictured myself at a big, Big 10 campus. So we kind of ended up having this dual goal of, “Hey, we think we want to get back to the Midwest and we think we want to get back to the Big 10.” And then we came here and I was like, “Oh, this is the…” You ever have that feeling when you step into a place and you’re like, “Oh, I think I’m supposed to be here?” And I had that feeling when I was a high school senior touring college campuses, and I stepped on my foot on Penn State’s campus. 

I had that feeling of like, “Okay, I’m supposed to be here.” And my husband came with me for the interview and we stepped under the arch right outside the student union and somebody took our picture and I just looked at him. I was like, “Oh, I think I’m supposed to be here.” And it has just been so great. It’s fun being somewhere that’s growing and just reinventing themselves, kind of staying rooted in tradition, but also reinventing themselves. I feel like that really exemplifies what Purdue is, and it’s been so fun trying to find my little niche of how I can contribute to that in a meaningful way. 

Kate Young: 

What factors put Purdue and the Daniels School at the forefront of modern workforces and that employee wellness and well-being out in the workplace? 

Allie Gabriel: 

We really have, I think, an embarrassment of riches here in terms of the people that are asking questions that really translate into what people are going through at work and in their lives. So when I was also thinking about places that I would be happy, different schools take different approaches to building. If you think about a department, it’s like a portfolio. Some people take a real diversification approach where they want every faculty member to do something pretty different. So you can have a lot of coverage. And I think there’s strengths to doing that. A different approach though is to say, “Hey, what’s our core values? Who do we see ourselves as?” And we’re going to start to build around that. And so what was already happening before I came here is if you were interested in well-being, work-family issues, work-non-work recovery, leisure, meaningfulness at work, relationships, it’s Purdue. 

And so for me, I always viewed Purdue that way, and that’s how I view my own research. And so the thought of getting to join what was already happening was really, really exciting. I also really appreciated the push that was happening here and is still happening of an interdisciplinary connectedness, so to speak, that the Daniels school was not its own little island that just happens to be at Purdue, but rather there was a push to make sure it’s connected to engineering, to the sciences, just all over campus, that there’s a real value in building relationships. It’s quite literally baked into being a Boilermaker here, that there is an emphasis on well-being and just seeing how serious that was taken and that it was such a core part of who people are here and what the place is was amazing to me. I loved it because a lot of people view well-being or did for a long time as this ancillary thing, like, “No, no, no, we’re just here to perform.” And your well-being is, “You go take a nap on your own time. You go do yoga on your own time and get it together.” And now it’s like, “No, no, no. We actually could build workplaces and we could be the example. We could be the example here of what this could look like to really thrive at work.” 

Kate Young: 

As the Faculty Director of the Center for Working Well, what motivated you to research broader issues facing employees and organizations in the workplaces? Was it your personal experiences? Have you always been interested in that type of stuff since childhood? 

Allie Gabriel: 

So I’ve just always been fascinated by people, how our experiences changed so dramatically from one day to the next or even within the same day. My day to day is already a bit like a roller coaster, just up and down. I think that’s so fascinating, and trying to figure out what’s contributing to that. And part of being trained as an organizational psychologist is we care about what we call the science practice gap. So we care about doing really rigorous scholarship and science and then translating it out to practice. So making sure what we do gets into the hands of people who can actually use it, because most people on the street and organizations, wherever are not going to pick up one of our academic journals and be like, “Oh, this is a real page turner.” 

Kate Young: 

Yes, yes. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Like, “Let me go ahead and read this,” right? They’re not going to do that. But they might read A, they might listen to a podcast, they might listen to a webinar series. 

And so that really was the spirit behind the Center for Working Well is I saw that there were already so many great people here that so much good work was being done, and I wanted to create a conduit to get that out to people. And so we do workshops, we’re doing engagements like Greater Lafayette, Chamber of Commerce, getting to speak to people, say, “Hey, we’re here. If you’re struggling with issues tied to well-being, tricky relationships, conflict, motivation, making your work more meaningful, you can come talk to us. We’re here, have us come to your company.” And that’s what’s been happening, is we are getting contacted to actually come and share what we know, which is such a relief as a faculty member. That’s why we all love educating. And a lot of times education stops as a college student, and we want to keep educating people who are out there in the workforce saying, “you know what? People are messy and they’re a lot messier than I expected, and I’m having these issues. And can we talk about and how to go ahead and fix that?” 

Kate Young: 

What do you think Working Well means and what are the most pressing topics that the center is addressing right now? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, Working Well to me means thriving at work and at home. I truly believe you cannot be well if you are suffering at work or suffering at home because these worlds are not as separate as we want them to be. There was a long time where, so a way people often think about work, and again, I call it nonwork, that can be your family. It could be your biological family, your chosen family, your friends, your church, your social club, your volunteer community league, whatever that is to you, that is important. And for a long time, we viewed these domains as something that you can choose to integrate. You could be somebody, I’m a high integrator, I don’t mind talking about my family, talking about my experiences, bringing those into the workplace. There’s a little bit of a privilege to be able to do that. With more status, you can do these things maybe a little bit more freely, or there’s people who are segmenters, they want to keep this separate, and people can do this really extremely. So if you come to my office on campus, there are family pictures everywhere. My five-year-old, sometimes she’ll come in, and I have a model on my whiteboard for my research, and she’ll start coloring it in and drawing her own picture. It’s very clear I have children when you come in my office ,or I have really weird hobbies and I’m doodling on my whiteboard. 

So I’m an integrator. But some people will not even bring family pictures to their office. They won’t take family calls when they’re at work. And I think people thought that that was the norm, but that’s not how this works. It’s really hard to do that. It’s hard to mentally shut these worlds down. 

If you think about a work day where maybe you and your partner got off on the wrong foot, you might be able to kind of cool that off on a commute, but those thoughts are still going to keep following you. And so I like to remind people that Working Well means you’re feeling like you can thrive at both work and at home, because those are going to cross back and forth. So if you have a bad work day, you probably go home and you’re not as great to your friends, to your spouse, to your kids, and vice versa. If your kid drops a cup of milk all over your kitchen in the morning and you have a stressful commute and then somebody misses the bus, that’s going to carry over to work. So how can we think about Working Well as building structures and supports that let people really dedicate the time they need to take care of themselves at work and take care of themselves when they are off the clock? 

Kate Young: 

I think too, with all the technology elements, it used to be when my parents were working that you almost could at least shut it off a little bit more. 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s so bad. 

Kate Young: 

They’re not looking at their phone and their email. My father-in-law is always like, I missed the days where I could go to a conference and not be contacted by work, because I was in the conference actually learning things. 

Allie Gabriel: 

“I miss the days when nobody could find me.” 

Kate Young: 

Yeah. And so I’m sure there’s that element too, of and you can text people while you’re at work and you can look on social media and that might put you down or you see something on there, right? So there’s so many more elements in today’s world, 

Allie Gabriel: 

Right? Yeah. The constant connectivity is so much, it’s just so much. And yeah, so I think then it just makes it hard to shut down. And I think we make those mistakes all the time where we’re like, “Okay, I’m working at 8:00 PM tonight. You must also be working at 8:00 PM, so let me just send this email over here.” And what that does is it sends signals that that’s the norm. So you sending an email to somebody at eight 9:00 PM is now the norm of, okay, I’m working. 

Kate Young: 

And you can schedule alerts to everyone. You can schedule Teams messages and emails. 

Allie Gabriel: 

You can. in my email signature now. I put one of those disclaimers in, that’s like, “My work hours may not be yours.” Because really what I want to say is I have two kids now, and life is crazy. You’re going to get emails at really weird times of day. Please do not respond if this is not your time. And respond when you are able. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, I love those. Those are cool. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah. And it’s within reason. I think the tricky part here with prioritizing well-being is there’s a way to also go too far and say, oh, go non-responsive for several days and say like, “No, no, no. I was prioritizing well-being.” Like, okay, wait, “I wasn’t doing my job.” 

Kate Young: 

Yeah, wait a second. 

Allie Gabriel: 

You’re like, “Wait, wait, wait. We’re taking this too far.” And so how can we do this professionally still? And I think there’s a way to do that, which is, “Hey, I’m having a little bit of burnout right now. I see your email, I see your message. Normally I would get to this today. I need to take a beat today, but I’ll get to it tomorrow. So don’t be surprised when you don’t hear from you today, but I see it. I see you. This is important to me.” 

Kate Young: 

Okay, so we’ll wrap it up here, but what small steps can current business leaders, anyone who leads a team, really take now to start improving their own workplace? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Ask questions, ask people how they’re feeling and mean it, right? And not just the small talk like, “Hi, how are you?” 

Kate Young: 

“How was your weekend.” Yeah. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, yeah. Which I’m terrible at small talk. That’s its own separate podcast. With small talk where you’re like, “Hi, how are you?” I’m like, “Oh, let me tell you.” And you’re like, “No, I didn’t ask that. I just wanted to know how’s the weather?” Ask questions and really listen to people. If you have people who are saying like, “Hey, I’m feeling really fatigued, I’m feeling really anxious.” I think there’s a tendency to be like, “Yeah, get in line. We’re all busy, we’re all anxious.” Actually, listen, because there’s great researcher at Wharton, she passed away a few years ago very, very tragically from glioblastoma, from brain cancer. She was an emotions’ researcher. I just looked up to her so, so much for the type of work she did. And she has this great talk where she talks about the power of emotions, and she’s like, “Emotions are data. They are not these things to not be felt, to not be listened to. They are data. They’re telling you something’s wrong. They’re telling you something’s good.” 

And I think managers asking questions of how people are, asking for instance, Kate, when was the last time somebody was like, “Hey, what do you want to get out of this job? What would make you happy?” My favorite interview question ever was actually when I interviewed here at Purdue, it was that when David Hummels was the dean at the time, it was this last year before Dean Jim Bullard stepped in and I was interviewing and I was just, I’d been out for a while, but I was still nervous. I’m like, “You’re meeting the dean.” And I was nervous and I really wanted this. So I was like, “Okay, get it together. Get it together.” And we’re having the normal questions. And all of a sudden he’s like, “So I have a question. What’s something that you want to do that’ll make you happy that you have not been able to do before that you think you could do here?” 

And I was just flabbergasted. And I was like, “I don’t know the last time somebody asked me what would make me happy.” That’s actually how the Center for Working Well was created, was that question wow. Where I was like, “Well, I’ve had this idea and I just word vomited.” I was like, “I think it could do this and I think it could do this.” And he just was listening and he’s like, “Okay, go write a couple pages,” and that was it. And then it went from page to real life in less than a year. And I was like, “How often though do people get asked, ‘What’s something you want to do that would make you happy?'” 

And I think it’s these easy little micro moments of humanizing people, going all the way back to the beginning of asking people how they are, what would make them happy, what is their life like outside of here, learning who they are. That would start to make work feel a lot better, especially as people are going through so many stressful things. I don’t think a lot of my colleagues necessarily knew I had postpartum depression. A few did, and I told some more people later and they’re like, “Well, why didn’t you tell me?” And I’m like, “I didn’t want to burden you.” 

Kate Young: 

And it’s intimidating. 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s intimidating. Yeah, “I didn’t want to burden you.” And they were like, “You should have.” And I think good managers ask questions and listen and think about it and say, “Okay, I hear you, and maybe we can’t fix exactly what you’re saying or maybe I can’t do the exact thing you said that would make you happy, but let’s get close.” And I think it’s those little inching towards goodness that can be really, really impactful at work. And it all starts with talking and listening and building a culture where that is encouraged and supported. 

Kate Young: 

Well, Allie, this was a total pleasure. I could go on and on. Maybe we will. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Thank you for making me put on real people clothes for the first time in like five months. 

Kate Young: 

It is so great. Thank you so much. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Oh, thank you for having me. 

Kate Young: 

This interview was a mix of interesting and fun. Allie is such a genuine person, and Purdue is incredibly lucky to have her. If you want to hear more workplace tips from Allie, including how many exclamation marks is too many to add in an email, head over to our podcast YouTube channel youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

This is Purdue has a very special series coming out this month. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and follow life at Purdue on social media for some hints and Easter eggs, and stay tuned for Monday, October 20th. Trust us, you will not want to miss it. This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with John Garcia, Zack Mogenson and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team, project manager is Rain Guo. Our podcast YouTube Promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistant is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production assistant is Delaney Young. 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu slash podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler up.

Dimitri Peroulis: 

This is Dimitri Peroulis, and you’re listening to This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana-native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game-changers, difference-makers, ceiling-breakers, innovators, who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Sometimes I compare my own experience as a student and the experience of the student now in the 21st century, in 2025 and beyond, and those students do need to be future-ready, they do need to understand how industry works, they do need to get hands-on learning experience, but they need to do that not as a one-off, but actually through a full integration. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we’re talking to Dimitri Peroulis, senior vice president for partnerships and online at Purdue University. Dimitri recently kicked off his 23rd year at Purdue. He leads the university’s online programs and the Offices of Industry Partnerships, Global Partnerships and Engagement. He also serves as the Riley professor of electrical and computer engineering. As a leading expert on new innovative degrees and courses for workforce development and advancement, Dimitri is digging into the ever-evolving higher education landscape and how Purdue is effectively preparing students to stay future-ready. Plus, he’s sharing his advice for students entering today’s workforce. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Dimitri. 

Dimitri, thank you for joining us on This is Purdue, the official Purdue podcast, so welcome to the show. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Thank you so much. It’s awesome to be here. 

Kate Young: 

You are an expert on new innovative degrees and different courses for workforce development and advancement, so we’re going to dive into all that today. We’re going to talk a lot about being future-ready and what that means. Let’s start by talking a little bit about your role. Tell us what you do at Purdue, and how the university is changing what college and experiential learning looks like. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Indeed, I’m wearing a couple of different hats. I’m an electrical engineer by training, so I’m a faculty member in the Elmore Family School of Electrical and Computer Engineering. I’m now serving as a senior vice president for partnerships and online. It’s interesting, partnerships include industry partnerships, it includes global programs and partnerships, and it includes the Office of Engagement, which is about our local city-level partnerships. And the online programs are mainly the programs that we offer through the main campus. We do have some online programs offered by regional campuses, but the majority are degrees and credentials here from West Lafayette. 

Kate Young: 

Dimitri explains how Purdue is changing what college and experiential learning looks like by partnering with leading corporations like Eli Lilly and Company and Wabash. 

How are the university’s strategic relationships with these companies helping students stay future-ready? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

That’s frankly what is on our mind when we’re thinking about these partnerships, and I think the key is to think of them as forging strategic-level partnerships that really will transform the experience of the student. Sometimes, I compare my own experience as a student and the experience of the student now in the 21st century, in 2025 and beyond, and those students do need to be future-ready, they do need to understand how industry works, they do need to get hands-on learning experience, but they need to do that not as a one-off, but actually through a full integration. And that’s frankly why we do these strategic partnerships, we try to integrate them fully in the curriculum of the student in terms of what they might learn in the classroom, but also what kind of research experiences they might have here on campus, what kind of internship experiences and co-ops might get, and global experiences. Some of the students like to do that and we really need to support them on this. 

So many of these partnerships, you will see that they provide a whole hub of experiences. With Lilly, for example, we have center on campus that really takes students to the next level of engagement with Lilly. The students can understand how drug discovery works, how pharmaceutical manufacturing works, what does it mean to take something from the lab of a university, which sometimes it starts as a pure curiosity, but actually then leads to a full-fledged manufacturing process. And with Wabash as well, so they just need to learn how do supply and chain management skills work, how do these very complex companies carry operations so efficiently. So it’s all about this synergistic operation and this strategic alliance that we try to form between the university and the companies. 

Kate Young: 

It definitely feels like the days of getting an internship one summer, one semester, and that’s that, is over. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Yes, indeed. 

Kate Young: 

It’s all about that hands-on experiential learning, like you just talked about. How did these relationships with companies like Lilly and Wabash strengthen the overall workforce development and advancement, especially like you talked about with the drugs going from a lab out to the world to solve these challenges, talk a little bit about the research initiatives that are addressing the world’s toughest challenges today. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

It’s interesting, when you think about the skills that the students will need when they join companies like the ones we’re talking about, of course, they will need what they learned in the classroom, but they will need a lot more. They will need a whole new mindset of how they apply problem-solving skills to solve some of these tough challenges. And those are young individuals that are going to join the workforce, and almost immediately, they’re going to be faced with the real world. And so, we try to make sure that while they’re still in the university and while they still have the time and the opportunity to learn those skills and to learn how to create this type of mindset, that they have all the time and the opportunity to do so. 

That’s why I often tell students what you get at Purdue inside the classroom should not be more than 50% of your whole experience, the other 50% is outside, and industry partnerships is a big part of that. The fact that we’re able to offer this to our students, it’s incredible. We have more than 400 industry partners right now. Very, very few universities can really provide this kind of an experience to the student. And students can learn not only from the professors who sometimes lead those partnerships, but through the people who work in those companies. We have a lot of alumni in those companies. A lot of times, they develop mentorship relationships. So one step brings the other and it basically leads students to where we think they can be leaders very quickly. 

Kate Young: 

What advice do you have for students, maybe they’re interested in research, internships, engagement opportunities, how should they get their foot in the door? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Well, first of all, I would say don’t be shy. 

Kate Young: 

That’s hard though. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

It’s hard, it’s hard. And we really try to make it as easy as possible by providing multiple pathways. For example, there are centers on campus, like the Undergraduate Research Center, that students can just go online or just go there and start getting the advice they need. We offer programs on campus, summer programs or programs… This semester, this fall, we have the Discovery Interdisciplinary Research Program. The students can participate and they can apply even if they have no connections on campus, even if they haven’t met anyone, even if they haven’t connected yet to maybe a research lab, they can immediately go ahead and do this. But I always advise students to also create their own network. They can connect, for example, with student clubs, there are hundreds of students clubs on campus, they can connect with research groups. Sometimes, knocking on somebody’s door, virtual or real, is a little bit intimidating, but that’s why we’re here. So thankfully, there are multiple pathways, and I always advise students to start with the most comfortable one, but slowly push their comfort zone to the next level. 

Kate Young: 

It gets easier and easier, right? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Indeed. 

Kate Young: 

Dimitri dives into Purdue’s flagship online programs, one of the intentional ways in which the university is adapting to an evolving workforce. He shares some of the most unique career-forward courses and degree programs available for today’s students. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

In the online world, you will see students who are pursuing full degrees. We call that the credit-bearing credentials. Students who will pursue, for example, full master’s degrees online. And frankly, at Purdue now, we have full doctorate degrees online. You can get a Doctor of Technology, and as of last year, a Doctor of Engineering fully online, very, very unique opportunities. And those are the same degrees and the same credentials that people can earn here on our campus. They still earn a Purdue degree, they still get to walk through the Elliott Hall, they get taught by the same faculty members, they take the same exams, the same assessments, and of course, the same degree as everybody else. But in addition to that, we have the second bucket of offerings. Those are, I would say, career-focused micro-credentials, so people who need or want to be up-skilled very quickly in a field. An example is AI. 

Kate Young: 

Sure, hot topic. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Exactly. So we have people who graduated just a few years ago, they never took a single course in AI, and now they have to go and either work in the field of AI or even lead a group in AI. And some of those individuals need to work in the, I would say, hard tech of AI, but others need to think about applying AI to different spaces. What does it mean, for example, to apply AI into business? What does it mean to apply AI into governance or ethics or policy? So we created specific micro-credentials for that. We have actually 13 micro-credentials right now. They last about a month. Students can take them at their own pace. And then, right after that, if they want, they can continue and get even a full degree. But if they don’t want or don’t need a full degree, they’re going to be ready for industry. 

Many of these credentials, by the way, are very unique in the sense… For example, the AI micro-credentials are the only ones and the first ones that have been ABET-accredited at Purdue here. Some micro-credentials are also stackable, you can stack one on top of the other and start building a degree pathway if you want to. Some of them are bringing topics together that you might not have thought about. For example, we have AI storytelling, so how do you bring AI and how do you build your skills to convey what you want to say in a very engaging way? And of course, depending on the field that you go, you can find exactly what you need. 

Kate Young: 

And these are degrees and coursework and certifications that didn’t exist, five, certainly not 10 years ago. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

That’s right, that’s right. Some of them are brand new. We tend to build degrees that are really needed in the workforce now, but also in the future. And the number of students pursuing those degrees at Purdue is growing. Right now, we have almost 6,000 students who pursue full degrees at Purdue, fully online, and almost 14,000 who pursue micro-credentials. Those students benefit from the Purdue ecosystem, the infrastructure, our faculty, our staff members, the whole expertise, and from the industry connections we have to make those degrees relevant. For example, we work very closely with industry to co-build some of those micro-credentials in the areas, for example, of semiconductors. We work closely with industry, we have people from the industry working hand-in-hand with Purdue faculty members to bring a very unique offering, so people get to learn the fundamentals, but also what is applied right now. 

Kate Young: 

How do these things, AI-related degrees, we just talked about semiconductors, hypersonic certificates, how do these new online programs really help keep students future-ready? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Future-ready is a very interesting word. I know we talked a little bit about that. But when I think about a future-ready student, I think somebody who’s going to thrive and lead a very rapidly changing world. It’s a matter of giving them a very strong technical foundation in the areas, for example, that you mentioned, but it’s also a way of making them understand how they need to think about the future. Their mindset has to be a mindset of curiosity, of creativity, a mindset where they can take risks, a mindset that allows them to be adaptive and flexible. The world is not what it used to be 10 or 20 years ago, and likely the speed is going to accelerate for these students. So when we bring them through those unique offerings, of course, we will teach them what they need, but we try to create those communities that they will learn from each other and they will learn from the leaders, both in industry, as well as in academia. 

Kate Young: 

And when it comes to these online offerings and class formats, how does that differ from what Boilermakers get with the more traditional path? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

For people who pursue degrees, we have the same faculty members and the same people who will teach them, but the flexibility is the key. So the typical online student is a student who is a working professional, they tend to manage full-time jobs, sometimes they tend to manage families, so they have limited amount of time, so they need to focus on what they need to do, and they have to basically do that very quickly and very efficiently. So we try to be really flexible on what we’re doing, and we try to support them in terms of what they need. 

I’ll give you an example. A few years ago, and this is happening almost every year, I had a student who was a nuclear submarine officer. The student sent me an email at the very beginning of the semester saying, “Professor, I’m going to be literally underwater for three weeks, so I won’t be able to download lectures, I won’t be able to submit homework, I won’t be able to do projects.” And of course, we helped the student do the work as he needed. And it’s that flexibility, I think, that has put Purdue in a leadership position in the online courses, of course, in many other areas. But just to give you an example, many of our degrees are top ranked right now, many engineering degrees are top ranked, mechanical engineering is top ranked, electrical engineering is top ranked, engineering management, industrial engineering and so on. We really recognize, I think, in the way we do things and the kind of care, I think, we give to the students. 

Kate Young: 

How is Purdue, and specifically the online programs that we’re talking about, preparing students to leverage the degrees, the coursework, to excel after graduation? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

First of all, we make sure that the students are truly taught by the very best. We’re very blessed to have here on campus the very best faculty, so they really learn from the very best. They really learn from people who don’t just teach the material, but the ones who are leading the future, and getting that experience, I think it’s invaluable. At the same time, they get those connections with industry folks. Many of the companies that I discussed before are also engaged in the teaching and learning for the students. 

And of course, we help them afterwards. The students have the ability to come back to us every time they need something. This is not a static world. There are students who, yes, maybe right now, they’re studying AI, but perhaps sometime later, they need to study something more in the creative arts or something more in the business domain. So how does the business mindset blend with, let’s say, a science or engineering mindset? So we’re always there for them. When they come to our door, they can be absolutely certain that they get the best of the best, and in a way that they can actually learn, meet them where they are. 

Kate Young: 

And speaking of faculty, you still teach, you said- 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I do. 

Kate Young: 

… this will be your 23rd year at Purdue. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I do, I do. 

Kate Young: 

Amazing. Congrats. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I’m teaching every semester, yes, thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s dive into your Purdue journey. How did you come to Purdue? What’s your background? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

After I finished my PhD, I was looking for a university that could truly help me apply my knowledge, but at the same time, teach students. So I was looking for this, let me call it, perfect balance between research excellence and teaching excellence, and Purdue’s values were really well-aligned with what I was looking for. At the same time, Purdue had the facilities that I needed. I’m doing experimental work in the area of electronics and semiconductors. The Burke Nanotechnology Center was just coming up at the time I joined Purdue, so this was a big magnet, I think, for me, as well as many other folks. And I still remember how welcoming the community was here. It was incredible to start talking about collaboration options, growth opportunities, from my very, very first week here, and that spirit still remains. So there was no question really. 

Kate Young: 

And you won the Charles B. Murphy Outstanding Undergraduate Teaching Award in 2010, which is Purdue’s highest undergraduate teaching honor. How do you think your passion for teaching and your professional background helps you in your current role today? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I have been thinking a little bit about that over time, because I’m still teaching, but I’m still serving the university in different roles, and a lot of times, I think the skills in teaching and the skills in leadership overlap. For example, in teaching, I think a good teacher is all about connecting with the students, is all about curiosity, compassion a lot of times, and at the end of the day, what are you trying to do? You’re trying to truly empower a student to take the next step that normally they couldn’t take before you met them. But now, they feel not only they can take it, but they actually can take it with confidence, so they feel really empowered. 

In many ways, leadership positions require similar skills. And so, when I work with my colleagues, when I’m thinking about their problems, when I’m thinking about the next step we have to take as a university, a lot of these thoughts come back and I think a lot of these skills help me move forward. And of course, I’m an engineer by training, I have to bring my engineering and problem-solving mindset into this. So I think it all blends in a creative way. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely, that’s special. So you grew up in Greece and studied there, we had Assistant Professor Alex Psomas was also a fellow Greece resident. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Oh, yeah. 

Kate Young: 

And then, you were a graduate student at the University of Michigan. What did the workforce look like then? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Boy, I’ll try to remember, it’s been a while. But I do remember that when I was an undergraduate student back in Greece and I was studying engineering, it was a different world. The emphasis was a lot more on building analytical skills, it was also a lot more building a theoretical foundation, less about hands-on learning. And at the time, I think all I was thinking about, and most of my colleagues, were excelling academically and looking for some type of, I would say, stable next step. And again, I think we were in an academic environment that was more or less stable for decades. I’m not sure we can say that at this point. 

But in my graduate studies, things changed a little bit. I think everybody who goes to grad school find themselves in this dynamic environment which is very much innovation-driven. I actually chose to do a hands-on PhD, a lot of hours in the lab, a lot of hours trying things, even though I had almost no background in this, mostly because I wanted to push myself to learn that part of the world. And now, we come to university that gives opportunities to the students, thankfully much more than I experienced, much more than just the analytical skills, just the technical skills, forcing the students to think about business, forcing the students to think about entrepreneurship, allowing them to connect with the industry, allowing them to think a bit more broadly about the world. So thankfully, I think we are now providing more opportunities than in the past. 

Kate Young: 

Reflecting back and knowing everything that you know now, if you were a student at Purdue today, what career path do you think that you would take? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Oh, sometimes I think I wish I could become a student again, because we’re all learning, we talked about lifelong learning before, so I’m trying to do this in many opportunities as much as I can. But if I was back at Purdue, I think, as a student, perhaps I would think about three different dimensions. So one would be, I would say, excellence in technology. I’m an engineer, so I have to think about that, I’m sure it’s not for everyone. But think about depth in the particular field you want to focus on. But then, I would also think about creative expressions. I think this is so crucial in today’s world. We talk a lot about AI, we talk a lot about technology, but what about poetry and what about music and what about what makes all of us humans? I think this kind of creative expression will be more and more crucial in the future. And the last thing I would say is about thinking about the global business impact. So as I’m thinking about what domain I would focus on, I would try to make sure it’s business-relevant, and ideally in a global perspective. 

Kate Young: 

What advice do you have for students entering the workforce today? What are some practical steps that they can use to stay adaptable, resilient, persistent, what advice do you have? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Well, I think you already mentioned some very key- 

Kate Young: 

Key words. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

… key words. I would start with resilient. The world is changing, setbacks are almost unavoidable, challenges, frustrations, are difficult not to face. So resilience is a key, I think, skill and mindset that people need to bring. But also, the workforce provides opportunities. So I would think of a student who is applying both, I would say, an offensive approach, in the sense of grabbing opportunities, being out there, hungry to learn, hungry to contribute, eager to move the world forward in the right direction, and at the same time, being able to cope with difficulties that will come almost for sure, so not being discouraged, not giving up. The world is moving fast, is adaptive, but it also provides lots of opportunities. So that mindset, I think, is crucial. 

Kate Young: 

Well, Dimitri, it was a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today. Is there anything else that you’d like to tell our listeners or our viewers? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Well, as you can probably imagine, I’m quite excited about being at Purdue. Maybe one thing I will add is that no matter if you are a student or if you’re an industry partner or if you’re a global partner or if you’re a researcher or a faculty member, I think people find that Purdue is where innovation actually meets impact, and that’s what really is exciting so much. And that’s what I think all of our partners, no matter which direction come to us and no matter what opportunities they explore with us, at the end of the day, they think about people and impact. So thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, absolutely, thank you so much. 

Dimitri exemplifies the Boilermaker spirit and humility, and we can’t thank him enough for joining us. If you’re interested in learning more about Purdue online, you can visit purdue.edu/online. Dimitri also shared some bonus content with us, including his top two majors of the future on our podcast YouTube channel, youtube.com/@thisispurdue, and don’t forget to hit that subscribe button while you’re there. Plus, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. We have a very special series coming out in October, and trust us, you will not want to miss it. More to come on that very soon. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with Jon Garcia, Zach Mogensen and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production assistant is Dalani Young. Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler Up.

Kate Young: Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking, who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Sutton Tyson: We’re very used to the five o’clock evening news where you sit down and you have that hour-long packaged segments type of news programming. Streaming functions very differently in that it’s on-demand. You can access it at any time, whether it’s airing live or whenever you’re able to watch. There’s device flexibility. It’s not just being cast from your television. You can watch it on your phone, watch it on your laptop. There’s a variety of ways in which you can access this news content that didn’t use to exist. 

Kate Young: In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Purdue College of Liberal Arts alumna Sutton Tyson. Sutton is a rising talent in the broadcast journalism field and is currently the booking producer for The Takeout with Major Garrett on CBS News. She also previously served as the spokeswoman in the National Press Office for the FBI, where she covered issues of national security, criminal activity, and counterintelligence. As the rise of social media continues to grow and less people are sitting down to watch the 5:00 p.m. news on their TVs, Sutton shares what she believes the future of the news holds, especially for younger generations. Plus, we discuss her incredible career journey in Washington DC and her firsthand experiences in the rapidly evolving news industry. Okay, let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Sutton. Sutton, thank you so much for joining us on This Is Purdue, Purdue’s official university podcast. Welcome to the show. Thanks for coming. 

Sutton Tyson: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Kate Young: Younger audiences, and a specific generation is on a lot of people’s minds lately, it’s making headlines, it’s Gen Z. You’re someone who works behind the scenes at a major news network, CBS. What is your approach to meeting this demographic where they are? 

Sutton Tyson: Gen Z, they’re not the up and coming generation anymore. They’re the ones that we are really speaking to at this point. The biggest thing that stands out to me about their generation is their ability to seek authenticity and transparency. They’re the generation that grew up with influencers and catered content based on whatever their interests are, their passions. So that really does shape from a news standpoint how we’re really re-envisioning delivering the news. How do we give content that meets the demand that is speaking to this authenticity and this transparency and catered to a younger audience? At least for me personally, it’s definitely forced me to re-imagine how we reach that demographic in a way that’s tangible. 

Kate Young: They’re used to quick clips. They’re on YouTube. They’re on TikTok. They’re on Instagram. How much do you take that fact into consideration when you’re booking guests and shaping content for The Takeout? 

Sutton Tyson: A lot of my consideration when I’m looking to book a guest for our programming, it’s not just who’s going to give the best interview, but who’s going to give content that can function both as a long-form interview and be compelling but can also be a bite-size piece that can go on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. It’s very multifaceted, I would say, in my thought process in booking. I guess to join us, you’re wanting them to be able to, again, reach this generation on a variety of different platforms. 

Kate Young: And have that authenticity, too, I’m sure. 

Sutton Tyson: Absolutely. 

Kate Young: You believe streaming is the future of news, and that’s something that The Takeout is addressing. So they’re streaming on CBS on the website as well as a podcast. Walk us through streaming. How is streaming different from sitting down and watching the five o’clock news every night? 

Sutton Tyson: There’s a variety of ways that streaming differs from your traditional broadcast news. We’re very used to, as you said, the five o’clock evening news where you sit down and you have that hour-long packaged segments type of news programming. Streaming functions very differently in that it’s on-demand. You can access it at any time, whether it’s airing live or four or five, six hours later whenever you’re able to watch. There’s device flexibility. It’s not just being cast from your television set. You can watch it on your phone, watch it on your laptop, access it from a podcast platform. So there’s a variety of ways in which you can access this news content that didn’t use to exist. 

Also, I think the streaming format provides a more casual and formal setting, which is neat because it gives the opportunity for us to have more long-form intentional conversations. You’re not seeing those cut down two to three-minute interviews that came from a 30-minute sit down. You can actually capture that entire conversation, air the whole thing on your streaming platform, and then, as I said earlier, cut those down into the bite-sized pieces to put on your social media platforms like the TikToks and the Instagram. So it’s a very different way in which we’re creating and packaging news, but it provides, I would say, vast opportunity in a way that traditional broadcast just doesn’t. 

Kate Young: I know, too, with podcasting, we always talk about you can download it and it’s there on a flight, or if you lose WiFi on a road trip, you lose phone service, you can still access it versus sitting in front of the TV like traditional broadcasting. 

Sutton Tyson: Yeah, that’s exactly right. 

Kate Young: I asked Sutton how she thinks broadcast news and news consumption will change in the next five to 10 years. Does she ever envision cable news going away completely? 

Sutton Tyson: I think we’re already seeing this change play out with the iterations of streaming over the past few years. It goes back to this new generation, these up-and-coming generations that are seeking the content that they want. Do I think that that will completely rid us of traditional broadcasts altogether? I doubt it, but the way in which we are providing news is going to constantly evolve. Again, it’s why I find streaming to be such a unique platform for us to really think outside the box, be creative, and not just reach the younger generations, but reach all the generations based on the content that they’re choosing to consume. 

Kate Young: Sutton reflects on the potential challenges that traditional news networks have to navigate now that streaming is growing in popularity. 

Sutton Tyson: Traditionally, broadcast news, as it currently stands, its target demographic is just a much older age range than what you might see with a streaming audience. So I think in that sense, crafting the messaging so that it’s resonating with the audience that is tuning in, it’s really important. That’s something where, when it comes to the streaming networks, the streaming shows and segments that we have, it’s a bit more diverse in the sense of the age demographic ranges from young to old. You have more flexibility in your messaging and your strategy. 

Kate Young: Let’s go back to your career path, your Purdue journey. You graduated from Purdue’s College of Liberal Arts with a bachelor’s degree in mass communications and then a minor in political science. Then you moved to DC, you said, right after graduation. 

Sutton Tyson: Yeah, I graduated and moved the next week. 

Kate Young: That is so cool. You worked in the nonprofit sector, and then you transitioned to a role with the National Press Office representing the FBI. I know we talked before this interview, you said you had a bit of an unconventional career trajectory, which I kind of agree, and I’m also a mass communications major from CLA. But tell us more about your career journey after graduating from Purdue. 

Sutton Tyson: I’ll backtrack actually just a little bit before I even started at Purdue just to give some context. I’m from a one-stoplight town in Indiana, a proud Hoosier from southern Indiana, but I’ll always be Boilermaker at heart. But right before I started at Purdue, I had the chance to go teach English in Thailand over the summer. It was really kind of a whim decision on my part. I was going to visit some friends. But once I got there, I realized that the kids who I was living and teaching and working with were rescued from human trafficking. That completely altered my views on life and humanity and certainly what I wanted to do with my career. 

It was an interesting way to start at Purdue because, as you said, I was a mass communication major. It had been my dream since I was a little girl to be the Jane Pauley or the Barbara Walter. Now I had this newfound passion to raise awareness about this humanitarian issue and really work to try and create change. That’s what shaped me over my four years at Purdue that then launched me to DC. As you said, I worked in the nonprofit sector that was working for an organization called International Justice Mission, which is one of the largest anti-slavery nonprofits. 

I kind of followed that passion here in DC, but really always down in my gut knew that I wanted to pursue something that aligned with journalism and news. So the opportunity to work at the FBI came about a year after I moved to DC. I started in 2017. I spent five years with the FBI. The bulk of my time was spent as a spokesperson in the National Press Office. That was a really unique opportunity for me for a variety of reasons. It was very high stakes. It was having really the mouthpiece for this international agency. It also gave me the chance to work firsthand and cultivate relationships with national reporters, international reporters, news outlets. So it aligned with really everything that I cared about, mission-focus, mission-oriented, but also really tapping into my love for journalism. I really learned a lot from that role, learning how to work under pressure, communicate with executives, prep executives for news interviews, communicate crisis events. Also really ensure that with all of these crisis events that you’re speaking to as a spokesperson, you’re implementing that compassion, that empathy. It was an incredible opportunity. 

Kate Young: I can only imagine every day was so different from the previous day. What was a typical day, though, working for the FBI? 

Sutton Tyson: Every day was different. You’re exactly right. I was in the Press Office through a number of major historical events. Was there during the COVID epidemic, was there during the 2020 civil unrest. Also worked there through the course of two different presidential administrations. So there was a lot happening while I was there. With each thing that was thrown at us, we really just had to work as a team and learn how to navigate it as an organization. 

For me specifically, I was the one that helped lead our COVID fraud response. So I did a lot of work with our Criminal Division. That particular unit within the division oversees financial fraud. So they had a huge hand in doing a lot of the news, interviews, the press releases, the press conferences, really raising awareness about all the different types of COVID fraud that took place over those three, four years. It was really impactful to be able to help shape the narrative and get that message out to help protect the American people. 

Then certainly with the civil unrest that we saw in 2020, I had the opportunity to actually go help one of our field offices that was in the middle of all of that and help shape their messaging strategy, work with the state and local law enforcement there to make sure that everyone was operating in a cohesive manner. It ranged every day. Then on some days, FBI Director Wray would be doing an interview, and I’d be powdering his face before he went on camera. So you just never really knew what the day would hold. 

Kate Young: All duties as assigned. 

Sutton Tyson: That’s right. Yes, exactly. Serving the American people no matter what. 

Kate Young: What types of lessons did you learn in this role that you applied to your job as a news producer later? 

Sutton Tyson: Learning how to work under pressure, and also really prioritizing empathy and compassion in a way that I was communicating, whether it was writing a press release, helping one of our public affairs officers out in the field who’s about to go and do a press conference on a mass shooting, prepping the FBI director to do those 60 Minutes interviews. A lot of the time, the topics that we were addressing, they impact real people. They impact people like you and me and our parents and grandparents. So always making sure that no matter what the issue was at hand we were putting information out for, we always kept that empathy and humanity at the forefront of our mind. 

That’s certainly something now working as a producer in the news industry it’s so important, when there’s crisis events or really big news in the headlines that we’re trying to make tangible and digestible to the average viewer, you want to be able to have that human emotion, that authenticity and transparency. So I’m really grateful to have learned that at my time at the Bureau because it’s paid dividends now being on the other side in the news industry itself. 

Kate Young: A lot of times it’s bad news. I know recently in January you reported on the Army Black Hawk helicopter collision over the Potomac in DC. What is it like in those breaking news moments to shape the content, shape the news in these high pressure situations? 

Sutton Tyson: I think it’s situations like the plane crash that happened in January that really show how make or break this industry is in the sense of it’s critical that we do our jobs professionally and quickly and accurately and, again, approach them with that empathy and that compassion and humanity. The plane crash for me was a really challenging story to cover. 

I live here in DC, as you know, and so I was one of the first on the scene at Reagan National. My job as a booker is to be one of the first people that these family members, these loved ones see and are confronted by to offer our condolences and also try and get information as to what exactly is happening. There is a definite amount of responsibility there but also an immense amount of sympathy and acknowledgement to the human component of the tragedy that these people have faced that you have to be very mindful of. I think more than ever, that plane crash, that story that we covered really identified that for me. 

One of the people that I ended up going and interviewing was the manager of an ice skating rink in Ashburn in Virginia where a lot of the kids would train throughout the course of the day. I remember standing there and I’m holding my phone and I’m asking him questions, and you could just see in his eyes just the immense amount of devastation. That’s something that I think when a tragedy unfolds and we’re watching it play out on TV, sometimes when you’re just sitting on your couch watching, you sometimes don’t always get that raw emotion. But that’s something that I’ll never forget because it truly solidified for me and reminded me just how real these situations are, how impactful they are, and how important it is, and my responsibility as a reporter, as a producer to tell those stories well and accurately. 

Kate Young: You shared with me previously, too, that… I know you just said that that crash specifically was a really tough one for you. How do you take care of your mental health, that workplace wellbeing when you’re covering these horrific events? 

Sutton Tyson: It’s something that I think is really important for us to talk about because, especially working in the news industry, it’s constant. It’s never ending. The news doesn’t stop, as they say, and it is true. It’s so important working in this industry that we all prioritize our mental health and our wellbeing. So for me, I really do, as best I can, work to, the trendy saying, work-life balance. In the times where I can put my phone down and sit on the couch and watch a movie or cuddle with my dogs or take a walk, I take that on. I really make sure that I’m maximizing my time, just prioritizing, taking care of myself, working out, eating healthy. The things that everybody says you should do, it really does make a difference. Because just like with the plane crash, once something happens and you’re on, you’re on until the story is told. You have to be on your A game and ready at any moment for breaking news. So that downtime is just critical to rejuvenate and recoup and make sure that you’re at your best. 

Kate Young: I think that’s super important what you just said about always being on. It’s your job to tell the story and finish out the story. So as details are emerging, you’re on once again, right? 

Sutton Tyson: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 

Kate Young: You mentioned a couple of things, working out, going for a walk, eating healthy, all the things we should be doing, right? Any other go-to tips, methods for self-care, especially if anyone’s going through a challenging time at work? 

Sutton Tyson: I think another thing that’s been really important for me is really leaning on my community, leaning on my loved ones, being honest about my struggles and what I’m facing, not shying away from it, but just acknowledging that sometimes we do need our community to lean on. I’m very lucky to have incredible friends and family who make that pretty easy for me to do. They’re invaluable and really, I think, help me refocus in times where I’m just drained or need a break. So that’s, I think for me, one of the biggest ways that I just refocus, recoup, and get back on track and ready to keep going. 

Kate Young: You’ve had this incredible career, all of these experiences. The timing and relevancy of when you’ve served in these roles is super interesting, too. What skills or tools, experiences that you had as a Boilermaker really shaped and prepared you for these jobs today? 

Sutton Tyson: One thing that I always tell people, and it was one of the best pieces of advice that I was given before I even started at Purdue was from a dear friend of mine, Trisha Sorrells Doyle. She’s also a reporter in her own right. I remember she told me, “Right now, being from a one-stoplight town, you’re the big fish in a little pond, and you’re about to go become the small fish in a big pond. So with that in mind, make yourself the big fish in the big pond.” She gave me such great advice. Introducing myself to my professors, which was something I did at the beginning of every semester. I’d go just introduce myself. Really investing in my relationships, both with friends, but also with guest lecturers, with professors, thought leaders. That’s something that I think sometimes I might differ from other people. I don’t really love the word networking because to me that’s so transactional. 

Kate Young: Or intimidating, right? 

Sutton Tyson: Yes, absolutely. For me what I found to be most beneficial, certainly at my time at Purdue, was really cultivating meaningful relationships, sustainable relationships with professors, with friends, with bosses, with guest lecturers. Because ultimately, those are the people that then in turn invested in me and helped me get here. Without those connections and those relationships, it’s fair to say I probably wouldn’t be where I am right now. That was probably the biggest takeaway for me in my time at Purdue was getting the opportunity to learn that skill and see the importance and the value of it to then come to a city like DC and continue to really cultivate meaningful relationships. 

Kate Young: On that note, is that some of the advice that you would give to Boilermakers? Whether they’re hoping to pursue careers in media, any type of critical skills that they might learn during their time at Purdue, what would you tell them? 

Sutton Tyson: Absolutely, absolutely. If there’s one piece of advice I give to any student it is this, and I believe in it because it’s proven to be so beneficial and impactful to me. There are still professors at Purdue that we follow each other on LinkedIn. We’ll message each other. It’s so important to not just be a face but to be someone that people know. They know your goals and your heart and your intentions, and likewise, that you allow yourself to be that for others. Because once you keep going in your professional career, and even in your personal life, too, it’s those types of relationships that you can lean on and rely on. It shows who you are as a person. It kind of sets you apart. So, yeah, it’s the biggest piece of advice that I can give to up-and-coming students, soon to be, or recent grads. Just really, really take the time to invest in the people around you. 

Kate Young: I love that, too, because in your role as a producer, you’re speaking to connections that you’ve formed, maybe relying on them or working with them to gather some of the things that you need for your current job, so it was important to cultivate relationships there for the next step in your career. 

Sutton Tyson: Probably the biggest part of my job is building relationships with people, be it congressional members, their staff, agency executives. Being able to have those existing relationships and just send a text message or make a phone call on a whim, it’s a game changer. It’s a huge part of this job. It’s a huge part of being in the news industry. Fortunately, that’s a skill that I really value, so it’s not difficult for me to- 

Kate Young: It’s more and more difficult though, isn’t it? As you see people, they don’t want to talk on the phone. 

Sutton Tyson: It’s true. 

Kate Young: They don’t want to call to the doctor’s office. 

Sutton Tyson: It’s true, yes, yeah. I think as we continue to become a world that’s more reliant on things that communicate for us, AI, social media, DMs- 

Kate Young: Yeah, totally. 

Sutton Tyson: … it’s all the more important that we exercise that muscle and continue to prioritize those face-to-face sustainable relationships with other people because this will never fail you. That will only ever be a benefit. 

Kate Young: I love that. What is something people would be surprised to know about working in broadcast journalism and that 24/7 news cycle? 

Sutton Tyson: I think one of the biggest surprises for me was seeing just how much work goes into a television show. As a viewer and a subscriber, you see the pretty, neat finished package of the news. What people don’t realize is that sometimes we have a guest that’ll cancel an hour before the show starts, and we’re scrambling to find somebody who can fill the slot. Or breaking news will happen 10 minutes before we’re supposed to go on air, and so we’re scrambling to write scripts and make sure the anchor is read up on it. It’s kind of always a mad scramble. 

That’s also such an incredible part of being in this industry is that it’s such a team sport. There are so many people involved in making sure that the ship sails. A lot of those people never really… well, most all you won’t see in front of a camera. There’s only few who have that role. But there are so many individuals, the producers, the cameramen, the tech managers, the bookers, we all play a really vital piece in making sure that the stories that we tell and the segments that we produce are top-notch. So I always love to give a shout out to all of us who work in the industry because it’s a crazy life that we live. 

Kate Young: The behind the scenes. 

Sutton Tyson: So important, yeah. 

Kate Young: Then you have to turn around and do it all again the next day, right? 

Sutton Tyson: That’s right. That is exactly right. 

Kate Young: Well, I’ve loved this conversation. My very early career was in local news in Indiana, so this has been super cool to talk to someone who really made it big and made it to that national stage. I love all your advice about cultivating relationships, too. I think that’s so important. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with our listeners? 

Sutton Tyson: I’m so grateful for this opportunity. It’s always a pleasure to be able to share the insights that I’ve gained over the past decade. I love being able to just invest and uplift our up-and-coming Boilermakers who are going to enter the workforce. So really grateful for you having me. 

Kate Young: Amazing. Thank you, Sutton. 

Sutton Tyson: Thank you, Kate. 

Kate Young: It was a pleasure getting to know this young Boilermaker alumna on This Is Purdue. We’re so appreciative Sutton could join us. You can check out additional content and bonus clips from Sutton’s interview, like her tips on how to break the ice and make a great first impression when meeting new people, on our podcast YouTube channel, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And of course, be sure to follow This Is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. 

This Is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. 

Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. Don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler Up!

Brent Yeagy: 

This is Brent Yeagy and you’re listening to This is Purdue. 

Matt Butler: 

This is Matt Butler and you’re listening to, This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Brent Yeagy: 

What Purdue has done with freezing tuition, coupling that with a highly prominent top-tier research institution, is the national benchmark. The value that a Purdue student gets today is off the chart. 

Matt Butler: 

Lots of options in which you can accelerate attainment and increase attainment for better bank through. But I see those are some real trailblazing areas Purdue’s working in. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to Brent Yeagy and Matt Butler. Now, you’ve probably seen the headlines about how the value of higher education is rapidly evolving and Brent and Matt are joining us today to answer the question, is college still worth it? Brent is a transportation industry leader and is the president and CEO of Wabash, a logistical equipment manufacturer headquartered in Lafayette, Indiana. He’s been spearheading strategic direction and operations there since 2018. Brent is a Purdue engineering alum and a university partner, which we’ll dig into more here soon, but he’s seen firsthand how a Purdue degree can impact your life and how the university is driving innovation. Matt is a higher education and workforce expert and previously served as a senior policy advisor for former Indiana governor, Eric Holcomb. Matt is a Purdue alum as well. Today Matt serves as the senior associate commissioner and chief academic officer for the Indiana Commission for Higher Education. 

In this episode, we’ll discuss Purdue’s approach to affordability, return on investment, and how today’s students are preparing for a future that looks dramatically different from the past. Should people still be investing in higher education and what’s Purdue doing differently when it comes to earning a college degree? We’re diving into all of this and more with Brent and Matt. Here’s our conversation. Brent and Matt, thank you so much for joining us on This is Purdue, Purdue’s official university podcast. So Brent, you are a transportation industry leader, you’re the president and CEO of Wabash National Corp. You’re also a Purdue alum. 

Brent Yeagy: 

Correct. 

Kate Young: 

Welcome to the show. And Matt, you’re also a boilermaker alum. Welcome to the show. So, you are a higher education and workforce expert and right now you’re the senior associate commissioner and chief academic officer for the Indiana Commission for Higher Education. You’re working to ensure that the state’s post-secondary offerings are meeting the needs of the modern workforce, which is exactly what we’re going to dive into today. So, we’re eager to get to know both of you and discuss what Purdue is doing differently when it comes to earning a college degree. So we’re just going to get right into it. As I just mentioned, we’re talking about this buzz worthy topic. Do you all think that higher education and a college degree is still worth it? 

Brent Yeagy: 

I personally have seen that in different media publications, articles, social media, really asking that question, and a lot are advocating on the negative. I would have to say I don’t agree with that in any way, shape or form. And in no way, shape or form has Wabash embraced that mindset in any way, shape or form. I think the process of going through a degree is forming in terms of the maturity and the experiences and the problem solving and the resiliency of people. I think when it’s applied with solid degree programs, with all of the external application of what they learn, it creates a robust experience that employers can leverage. Now, obviously there’s times when maybe a person doesn’t necessarily get into a robust degree program or institution, that’s a different problem, but in terms of saying that’s a general consideration, that it’s not effective, don’t buy into that. 

Kate Young: 

What about you Matt? 

Matt Butler: 

I would wholeheartedly agree. The Georgetown Center for Education and Workforce forecasts that 66% of good jobs, good jobs in 2031 will require a bachelor’s degree and most of those will require even more. I think also sometimes when we think of college, we also need to think of post-secondary training like credit bearing certificates, apprenticeships that sometimes have an associate degree with them. So I agree with Brent that in every way, shape or form we have the metrics that the post-secondary credential still has currency, if not even more so. However, individual results may vary, more degrees might be more career relevant than others, especially in such a, when technology’s evolving so much. But I think the other good thing is that we know that who’s your families based on research we’ve done at the Commission for Higher Education, that 80% of students and families value post-secondary education. 

Kate Young: 

How do you think Purdue is bridging the gap between traditional academics and real world industry needs? 

Brent Yeagy: 

I’ll go back to when I was at Purdue in the late ’80s, early ’90s, and even then we were starting to talk about how do we create multidisciplinary types of degrees. And there was a level of resistance around that, but there was some accommodation and I was one of those that was able to influence through my counselors in the schools I was in, to how do you create a level of hybrid degree. You now fast-forward to today, and I think Purdue leads the way in that ability to create interdisciplinary engineering. The Daniels School of Business has really elevated that with the business degrees they have, the School of Engineering is continuing to advance that, polytechnic is as well, and I think that is a great way we are beginning to pull those types of degree programs into Wabash, because they have such a well-rounded view of technology, business application, fundamental engineering principles at scale and we think that’s important for where the world’s going. 

Kate Young: 

When you guys think of higher ed’s value, how do you think it’s evolved over the past five to 10 years? And we keep seeing headlines, we’re hearing things that the workforce looks so dramatically different from the past. So what do you think the future of higher ed looks like for students who are entering this new workforce? Matt, we can start with you. 

Matt Butler: 

I think there’s concerns about ROI, and ROI is a function of the sticker cost or the real net price you’re going to pay. It’s also time. Time is not just paying tuition fees, room and board, but it’s also the opportunity cost in which you could be out there earning money and earning experience and then it’s let’s say the return on the investment afterward once you land a career and start advancing. And families and students are rightfully concerned about a lot of that. And I think, because we’ve had such tremendous technological change, a global economy continues to globalize, there’s competitive pressures that perhaps traditional areas aren’t as easy perhaps as they were in the past. I know there’s been a lot of buzz say about computer science, concerns about AI’s impact on that. I would argue that a computer science student here at Purdue has nothing to worry about and they’re getting trained with top-notch faculty and technology. 

So, where I do think there are some areas, also the multidisciplinary that as well, but I think accelerated delivery Purdue in its three-year degree program has really set a national standard. Also, bringing in students when they already have a significant amount of dual credit from high school, the Indiana College Core, which is a 30 credit hour block of gen ed courses. Those students can come in and they can pretty much already be a sophomore and we know also that some of them will graduate quickly. Others will perhaps do a dual degree or a double major, because they still want that four year experience. So lots of options in which you can accelerate attainment and increase attainment for better bang for your buck. I see those are some real trailblazing areas Purdue’s working in. 

Brent Yeagy: 

I think in the way you want to consume the educational process is important and whether it’s Purdue or any higher education institution, has to advance. I think Purdue is doing that, whether it is pure online, whether it’s hybrid and really variations in between. And even thinking about how do I mix online classes with on campus classes to really fit how the individual can best consume it, what’s best for them, their time, their schedule, their family, just the travel back and forth, is for the consumer today to meet them where they’re at, all the institutions have to advance in that level. And I think Purdue is working through that. The addition of Purdue Global is a great example of fitting that need. I have a daughter-in-law that wanted to advance her higher education. That was a path she was able to go down and she’s leveraged that very successfully and it allowed her to do something she wouldn’t have been able to do in a traditional setting. 

Kate Young: 

As the largest logistical equipment manufacturer in the US, Wabash recently partnered with Purdue on a research and development project resulting in a game-changing innovation that could accelerate sustainability in the transportation industry. Brent shares more about this collaboration and the impact a project like this has on students. 

Brent Yeagy: 

Wabash has a relatively long history of working and providing opportunities for students to learn, but typically that’s been done within our factories, our office setting. We’re attempting to adapt to where the world is going and that means that the increased use and demand for alternative energy sources for the powering of equipment is paramount. 

Typically, the equipment that we make is passive, meaning it doesn’t have an engine, so we would think that maybe it doesn’t have a part to play. Well, what we found with working with Purdue and others is that possibly we can harness energy just by the movement of our products going down the road, that we can capture through the vibration or the wind going past it, and we can capture that energy and then we can store it in batteries and make it available for the entire system. When we can do that, we can, for example, in a thermal refrigerated setting, so think about carrying your ice cream down the road. Instead of that being a diesel engine, maybe it’s electric in the future, simply powered by the movement of the trailer going down the road, and that would be game-changing in terms of environmental impact, sustainability cost, and then overall efficiency in that. 

And then we partnered with Purdue, because we think they have the experts and the technology to do it and we now have four or five graduate students that get hands-on multi-year experience. They can work with it across their entire time at Purdue to advance the technology that’s being put into that application. 

Kate Young: 

We’ll link to the full story on this research and development project in our show notes, so be sure to check that out. In June 2025, it was announced that Indiana’s 15 public colleges and universities will freeze in-state undergraduate tuition and mandatory fees for the next two academic years. Indiana governor Mike Braun pointed to success at Purdue, where tuition and mandatory fees have stayed flat for 14 years, while still, “Delivering successfully on the institution’s core mission.” When it comes to college affordability and student debt, how are public institutions in Indiana, and specifically Purdue, addressing these concerns? Here’s Matt. 

Matt Butler: 

Well first when I thought of that, or heard of that and working at the commission and the commission unanimously approved the tuition recommendation, hold it flat. Terrific news for Hoosier students and families, great news for them. Second, as a proud boilermaker, Purdue has set the standard with President Daniels going forward and it’s shown that you can hold costs flat or we can control costs while still delivering an ever-increasingly better product. So that’s the case. 

I would also call attention to the fact that our peer institutions, state institutions have held the line too. Adjusted for between 2014 and 2024, Indiana’s in-state tuition has decreased by 11% in inflation adjusted. So the average tuition to go to a state college, a University of Indiana, is cheaper today than it was 10 years ago. Not many states can say that, especially with our portfolio of institutions. And another thing I would also point out, state lawmakers over decades have invested in state needs-based financial aid. And when it comes to needs-based financial aid, Indiana is in the top five Midwest and in the top 10 nationally in terms of its generosity. So I think those factors of investing, affordability, two years of consistency, families know what they’re getting into, I think it’s just great news. 

Brent Yeagy: 

Just to highlight something there. The question was asked in the context of the state of Indiana, but what Purdue has done with freezing tuition, coupling that with a highly prominent top tier research institution, is the national benchmark. It’s not just the state, it’s the national, which the value that a Purdue student gets today is off the chart. 

Kate Young: 

My colleague and I just at a conference in Chicago and we presented about higher ed podcasting and whenever we say, “Hey, we’re from Purdue,” it is, it’s a national recognized thing, “Haven’t you guys frozen tuition?” 

Brent Yeagy: 

They kind of go, “How are you doing that?” 

Kate Young: 

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So for both of you, from a corporate and then a policy perspective, what makes a degree from Purdue an investment that’s worthwhile, going right back to what you just said, Brent, essentially. 

Brent Yeagy: 

Yeah, I’ll come at it from a different angle, whether it’s business or STEM or health sciences or consumer science, whatever you’re coming at, the ability to get an education at Purdue, where you’re not only being exposed to some of the best thinkers in the world, but your ability to interact with business and real world applications, to access cutting edge facilities, to apply and to do your investigations, to surround yourself in an atmosphere of excellence, is off the chart. And I would also add that the culture at Purdue is distinctly different than other institutions. I don’t want to say this, it’s about doing the work. It’s pragmatic, it’s gritty, and employers love that about Purdue, and it is part of the brand. And so you just, while the piece of paper itself and what you learn is important, it’s all those intangibles that a person walks away with what that Purdue degree, that really not only personally elevates them, but also it’s in the eyes of those that also value that degree. 

Matt Butler: 

I would echo everything Brent just said. I would say that the undergirding of that is Purdue’s land grant mission. I think it’s always had employer and industry applications front of mind, because its key outputs are typically trained and technically competent engineers, healthcare workers, what have you. And then [inaudible 00:14:47] research institution, all of those things that when push comes to shove, the gritty math figures, whatever, have to be done. And as someone who was a liberal arts student here at Purdue, I did minor in biology, but I was pre-med. We know that didn’t pan out. I got to be a doctor, you don’t [inaudible 00:15:00] an airplane. I think that pervades the entire campus in terms of, I remember when I was going to go to Purdue, but both my parents went here and their comment is they described Purdue as no drama. 

Brent Yeagy: 

That’s great what you’re saying. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. 

Matt Butler: 

Or people are just too busy to get in trouble. 

Brent Yeagy: 

That’s right. 

Matt Butler: 

I found that was the case too. I, from my liberal arts perspective and then other students who weren’t necessarily in engineering or science, just sort of fixation to accuracy, to process. I think when I’ve been overseas or in other states, that sort of ethos of Purdue, which is intangible and hard to capture, it speaks for itself, I think. 

Kate Young: 

You know, we previously discussed degrees in educational paths that are more relevant to the modern workforce. Matt, do you think these types of degrees and offerings will change the current educational model for public institutions in Indiana? 

Matt Butler: 

Yes, and thankfully they are already. There’s been a lot of movement on them. I think I mentioned the degree in three. I know Purdue has a, I believe it’s dual plus, which is packaging degrees in which students in technical bachelor of science areas can make it far more manageable to take a bachelor of arts and you’re combining an appreciation say of that humanities or social science to bolster, say coding and AI or medical science. Apprenticeship degrees I think are going to become more of a thing. We’re seeing them more in areas where learning by doing and having practical experience, teachers are a great example, I think you’re going to see more of that in those kind of areas, so students can earn while they’re learning. 

And I think you’re going to see more of, as Brent put it, multidisciplinary hybrid degrees, but you’re going to probably see those come and go or they’re going to have to really revise themselves. They rename themselves as technology shift and employer demand shift. So thankfully we’re seeing a lot of that. And then I think also, nobody’s going to throw their academic program inventory out the window. I mean, the bulk of Purdue’s degrees have been here for decades and rightfully so, but it’s going to be careful curation through program reviews, employer boards, advisory boards, what have you, and the expert faculty, knowing they need to keep abreast of development. Those are some of the things I see that are already happening and are on the horizon. 

Kate Young: 

Brent, what do you think as far as college students, when they’re choosing their majors, they’re figuring out what are my extracurriculars, what clubs should I join? What do you think they should be doing to set themselves up for success through your eyes as a CEO? 

Brent Yeagy: 

I think first the student has to be successful in finding a home at Purdue. They’ve got to make it through all four years, so finding things that resonate with them and not completely overthinking, it’s got to be in the right club or I’ve got to have this leadership position and do all those things. I had one child that was all about feeling good about what he was doing. I had the other one that was very anxious about what she was going to be doing. I really needed something in between. 

And so I think it’s about making sure you get a great fit, you have a great group of people you’re surrounded with, that you’re happy. But once you can check that box, then over the course of your four years, begin to think about how do I focus some of that time into those things that I’m passionate about, that I think is going to translate into a career or an identity area. You don’t have to be perfect, but be active. I think that’s the biggest thing is don’t waste your four years and say, I never plugged in. I have my degree, but I didn’t plug in. Beyond that, I would not try to be overly specific about it. 

Kate Young: 

I think too in the interview process, right, it’s great to be able to talk about maybe you got a 4.0 or something, but hey, I also had these experiences in this club or with these people, or in this leadership position. 

Brent Yeagy: 

And being able to show that you were flexible, you were thoughtful, you were experimental, is just as valuable as saying that I was in this top tier club for four years and I had this leadership position. In today’s world and how dynamic it is, sometimes it’s about are you flexible, are you open? Can you handle challenges? Did you have to shift what you were doing? Being able to think through that and have those answers and interview process that really explain how you navigated your time at Purdue, is a powerful message when you can do it, 

Kate Young: 

You frequently mentor, you recruit, you hire Purdue graduates, so let’s dig into a little bit more on specific things you look for when it comes to students’ resumes and cover letters. 

Brent Yeagy: 

Obviously we’re off the top, we’re looking for degree programs and completion of degree programs that fit the need that we’re searching for. If it’s a hardcore engineering role, we’re looking for an engineer. If it’s a technology application, we’re looking for that level of degree, certified confidence in what that is. Depending on where they’re at with their career and their time spent at Purdue, we’re looking for practical application. Can you show me where you put it to work at scale and what types of problems we you able to solve? 

Now, at the same time, we’re looking for more and more well-rounded individuals. At your time at Purdue or your time in your career between Purdue and maybe the time you’re thinking about joining Wabash, how did you gain other experiences? What did you seek out? Did you look to grow in multiple areas? Are you flexible, are you resilient? And so, we’re going to look and see how did, specifically to Purdue, how did your time here build a more rounded you, that we can leverage in ways that we know that you can succeed in a really, really dynamic world. 

Kate Young: 

In March of 2025, Purdue was named among the nation’s best in establishing value for students and creating job ready graduates for employers. The Forbes New Ivy’s 2025, 20 great colleges employers love ranking, lists Purdue among 10 public and 10 private institutions that are, “Outpacing the Ivy League in the eyes of employers.” Business leaders ranked Purdue a top 10 public university that is stepping up to educate the country’s brightest students and graduating the talent employers seek. Brent and Matt reflects on this ranking gain. Here’s Matt. 

Matt Butler: 

Go back to that land grant angle in terms of the mission is always, has that real world application front of mind when that has to do with the education and training of the students and then say it also has to do with R1 output, the research, the patents, the what have you. I also think that Purdue has for decades, when I was here and I know it was pretty old, before that it’s engineering round table, it’s co-ops invites employers to the campus. They mingle amongst the students and the faculty and getting a co-op or an internship, or those sort of work-based learning and experiential learning opportunities, was just sort of expected for many of the colleges here. I think this is one of the best times to be actually pursuing higher education, despite all the naysayers, because of these employer synergies, these experiential learning opportunities, whether they’re virtual or they’re in person or you’d get to do both. I think that nurtured relationship with employers or with industry groups over decades is probably why employers have ranked the university so highly. 

Kate Young: 

Brent, you have firsthand experience from hiring Purdue grads. 

Brent Yeagy: 

I’ve had the opportunity of going all around the world and whether it’s China Eastern or Western Europe, South America, Central America, and I have always honestly been surprised, no matter how far away I go, when I wear a Purdue shirt or whatever, I am recognized and commented on in the airport in Beijing or Shanghai, or Copenhagen, or wherever I’m at, and might be why I wear it sometimes. When I talk to people about it, Purdue is very, almost first of mind, the legacy of excellence over time always comes out. They just know that. But what I’ve found over the last 10 to 15 years, really starting with Martin Jischke and then now we’ve got President Meng, which had President Daniels in between, and there was a tone of we are excellent. There was that pragmatic, no drama, just do it type of persona that you as a boilermaker get with that degree. It resonates everywhere. No matter what country you’re from, everyone appreciates just, I get to work and I make it happen and that’s all you need to know. And I think Purdue just epitomizes that feeling and people love it. 

Kate Young: 

What about for you, specifically, personally, what skills and tools did you gain during your time at Purdue that’s helped you excel in your extremely successful careers today? 

Brent Yeagy: 

For me, I would just say just problem solving in general, of having to sit down and think about very complex things from multiple dimensions and be comfortable sitting there, figuring it out. I can leverage that in many different disciplines and abstract situations, but it’s that confidence that just give me enough time, I will think through it. I have seen parts of this before, and when I haven’t, I can sit and logically come to a conclusion that I can act on. 

Kate Young: 

We’ve had a lot of Purdue engineering alums and it’s the same story. Matt, what about you? 

Matt Butler: 

I mean, sort of the same way, but from the humanities and social sciences aspects, it was a lot of independent work. In high school you do homework and all of those things, but when it comes to four-year university, that’s a lot of time in the library. People still go to them. That was a lot of time in the library, immersing yourselves in multiple texts to understand differing arguments, understanding them from both perspectives. If you disagree with something and you can’t really make an argument for it, then you probably don’t fully understand that opposing argument. The other one, and I remember you had this as one of the prep questions, I was thinking, oh my goodness, I can’t think of really anything, but I’d say this isn’t unique to Purdue, but the last two years when I was here, I just had a great amount of writing-intensive courses and that has served me very well. Went on to graduate school for my master’s and my doctorate and then every job I’ve had since 2011 has involved writing and writing frequently. 

And they’ve been a reporter, legislative staff, working for a non-profit, worked for the governor’s office and now working at the Commission for Higher Education, different audiences at times, all audiences at times. So I’d say really wrapping your head around something, so you understand it from about every angle you can, I know we have some limitations, that you can explain it off the cuff or in depth, what have you. So I think those were some key things I got from my upper-level courses in the last few years. And then another one I’d add is I mentioned before I had a minor in biology. I had a pretty atypical experience for most of my fellow history majors and liberal arts majors is that I took chem 115, 116, chem two, I took the organic and all of that physics, that has served me well. It served me well when I did my PhD. 

My PhD was in agricultural history, so having that scientific basis, that genetics basis for many things, and it’s just served me well as just a citizen. I think being able to span multiple disciplines with intensive study is something I would really recommend current and prospective Purdue students do, is maybe get a minor completely outside of your college, completely out of sight of like out of STEM, or if you’re out of STEM, then get a minor in STEM. I think you just become so much more well-rounded and it speaks of the critical thinking skills Brent talked about. 

Brent Yeagy: 

I completely agree and I think two things I would add around that is Purdue is a place that you can follow almost any career or path that you want to go down, and at the same time you can learn how big systems and big things work, that allow you to go into the world and just see and understand and process very complex things. And at the same time, maybe you go through your problem solving process, you feel confidence that you can defend your answer, that you can defend your point of view and articulate it and communicate it in a way that maybe it’s a little better than some of the others. I think that is as a very tangible point of value and confidence that allows people to do big bold things when you know that you can stand toe to toe and defend your argument. 

Kate Young: 

We’ve seen the headlines, the current job market, it’s being impacted by economic uncertainty. What words of encouragement would you give to recent college grads or even future students? What advice, and again, encouragement? Because like you said Matt, there’s naysayers out there. What would you say to the younger people out there? 

Matt Butler: 

For recent college graduates? I’d say absolute congratulations. You’ve made it. It’s quite an accomplishment. Don’t diminish it. But just like it’s the cliche at a high school graduation or college commencement, it’s just the next step and there’s probably going to be some sprints and some hills and some pitfalls. For those I know that you read things about how the unemployment rate for recent college graduates has taken an uptick, I think that’s probably transitory and at least I hope so, but I think it is. 

But the thing is get out there both professionally, in your community, socially. I’d say that everything is sort of an audition. If it’s not the job you wanted, there’s only so many things you can control in your life, how hard you work, quality of your work product and how you treat other people. There’s something I found and perhaps Indianapolis is a big little city or however, it’s a small world and there are always people watching even if you don’t think so, and that could lead to your next opportunity. And there typically sometimes in this day and age, there are career change that you never even thought about. I’d say head up and then I’ll go back to how we open the conversation is that the returns to post-secondary study are undeniable. You just have to approach it carefully and thoughtfully. There’s no promised return from an investment, just like there’s no promised return from stocks or equities, what have you. It’s not making the investment, not planning for something after high school is the worst thing you can do. 

Brent Yeagy: 

Whether you are a high school student looking to go to Purdue University, you’re at Purdue University, you’re a recent college graduate, all three of those situations right now are looking what’s the job market going to be? And you hear all different types of things. If you go to Purdue, you remain at Purdue, you get your degree, you are heads and shoulders above the rest in your ability to go out and deal with whatever the world’s giving you. You got to know that. 

You got to be confident in that and not get negatively biased by what you hear. We are not like the rest. There’s your provocative thing. We are not like the rest. We’re better. So lean into it. And to your point, be flexible. Don’t have such a narrow view of what you believe your next step would be, that you walk past that’s just as good. And there’s always the next better decision that you can make, but what you can’t do is stand still and overthink or worry about what’s happening in the moment. You just have to keep moving forward. And if you do that, the Purdue degree will carry you where you want to go. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, so the title of the episode is Purdue is Not Like The Rest, We Are Better. 

Brent Yeagy: 

I would go with that. We’ll make t-shirts. 

Kate Young: 

I love it. Is there anything else that you all would like to share? It was a wonderful conversation. So cool. You two just met today and we’ve had this incredible conversation. 

Matt Butler: 

It’s been a pleasure. It’s also an honor to be invited to something like this as a Purdue alumnus and also as I said, my first podcast- 

Kate Young: 

Yes. 

Brent Yeagy: 

Yeah, you were great. 

Matt Butler: 

But the first of many hopefully. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, absolutely. 

Matt Butler: 

I just say applaud the work you’re doing, telling the story of all the great teaching, learning, innovation, connections with employers and philanthropy outside, off campus, and I know so much of it’s going on on campus, it’s just exciting. It’s like in some ways I miss being here. And I have the joy to be able to work in higher education policy and work regularly almost every day with some individuals who work for the institution. So I’m optimistic. I think with hard work we’re going to only improve our higher education system. And in Indiana I think we’ve got a good head start, and with Purdue, we’ve got a great asset amongst our other institutions. 

Brent Yeagy: 

I think what I would add, building off some of the questions at the end of the podcast, is that it doesn’t matter whether you’re a young person in school, recently graduated, or we’ll call it at the late stages of your career, we are bombarded with bluntly what you talked about earlier, before you got started, click bait and the negativity around what’s happening around you. I think that doing something like this to where you can try to get reality out to people, is wonderful. Specifically when we can do it to Purdue students, Purdue alumni, those that have that affinity for Purdue, so they know not to get overly biased by all those influences, and to really think about what they’ve done, what they’ve accomplished, and know to set some of that to the side and leverage what you have, and just again, we’ll say, just keep moving forward. 

Kate Young: 

Well, we so appreciate your time and thank you so much. It was a pleasure. 

Brent Yeagy: 

It was a pleasure. Thank you. 

Matt Butler: 

Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

We can’t thank Brent and Matt enough for joining us on This is Purdue. These two had just met each other that day of the interview and it was incredible to witness them have a candid conversation about the state of higher education and what Purdue is doing differently when it comes to earning a college degree. You can watch additional video clips of this interview on our podcast YouTube channel, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. We have some great content on there, so go ahead and subscribe while you’re there. And of course, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart radio, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Fad Boon in collaboration with John Garcia, Zach Mogensen and Ali Cheney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. 

Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotspa. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshi. And our creative production assistant is Delaney Young. Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, boiler up. 

Barry Odom: This is Coach Barry Odom and you’re listening to This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: Hi, I’m Kate Young and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Barry Odom: The athletic department can be the front porch of your house because you’re on display. We are, for 12 Saturdays, anywhere in the world, if you have the opportunity to have television or internet, you can watch us play. So the brand is on display and the Purdue logo is for everyone and it’s a strong logo across the world. So in my opinion for our team, we represent something so much bigger than ourselves. 

Kate Young: Welcome back This is Purdue listeners, and thanks for joining us for our first episode of our fall 2025 season. Now, we have a very special guest to kick off this new season. This guest is new to our Boilermaker family and I know many of you are interested in getting to know more about him. He’s a husband, a father, a Midwesterner at heart and a self-proclaimed grill master. More on that later. In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to Purdue head football coach, Barry Odom. Coach Odom has a storied history with college football and most recently he was the head coach at the University of Nevada Las Vegas, leading the program to its winning this season in 40 years. Now he’s entering his first season at Purdue, aspiring to also build a championship caliber program here. We dive into his new role and his path to Purdue and we’re getting to know Coach on a more personal level as he discusses his family life with his wife, Tia, and their three children, JT, Garrett and Anna. 

Plus Coach Odom discusses what it’s like to coach his son, Garrett, who is a freshman quarterback for the Boilermaker team. And finally, we dig into the latest NIL news and his vision for the future of the Purdue football program. Coach is disciplined and no-nonsense. He’s also warm and genuine and his values and attitude display exactly what makes our Boilermaker spirit so special. By the way, we shot this interview overlooking the Purdue football practice fields, and you can check out this full video interview with Coach on our podcast YouTube channel, YouTube.com/@ThisIsPurdue. Okay, let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Coach Barry Odom. 

Thanks for having us. 

Barry Odom: It’s kind of a nice view, huh? 

Kate Young: It is. It’s beautiful. 

Barry Odom: Those guys, the grounds crew, best I’ve ever been around. It’s amazing what they do after we finish a practice and it’s like all hands on deck. They go out and like it’s new. It’s amazing. 

Kate Young: The attention to detail is wonderful. 

Barry Odom: Really cool. 

Kate Young: Well, thanks again for taking the time. 

Barry Odom: You bet. Thank you guys. 

Kate Young: You’re on the official university podcast, This is Purdue. Welcome. 

Barry Odom: Awesome. So great. Everything in seven months that I’ve had a chance to experience that has to do with this great university is first class. It’s really amazing. And you look the educational side, the community, the greater Lafayette area, honor to be here, have a chance to represent Purdue and all those that care about it in a way through sport. 

Kate Young: You’re known for bringing discipline, structure, consistency to the football teams you lead. You’re entering your first season at Purdue. Let’s start by diving into what every Boilermaker football fan wants to know. You joined Purdue at a time that we’re striving to rebuild the momentum, right? What do you think it’ll take to experience a quick turnaround and success for Purdue football? 

Barry Odom: If you look at what it takes, number one, it’s about people. That’ll never change. It’s about the organizational structure. It’s about leadership, it’s about alignment. We started seven months ago in a number of things on talking about hope, vision, and belief. And then at some point through your work ethic and through your commitment and trust and love and openness and honesty, there will become some validation. I believe in the values of what makes up Purdue, the people, the hardworking mentality, I believe that still wins today. We get to do it through a game of football. There’s tremendous leadership here. You start at the top with Mung in the president’s office, and outstanding, unbelievable across the world, his impact. And then you go to our director of athletics in Mike Bobinski, the first conversation I had with him when looking at this job, immediately was attracted to his vision, what he thought it would take to get our football program back to the winning ways. 

And every step of the way, those two guys in the leadership and alignment have proven to be true. So I think that’s the first step with that. And then the culture and the organization that you put together in a timely fashion. Nobody, our players, the staff that we brought here, the families, nobody wants to hear, fans, nobody wants to hear that. It’s a rebuild. I will not talk about that to our team. Our expectation is to set a standard every single day that only allows winning habits. And then when you do that and you everybody aligned with that, it becomes who you are. We know that we’re going to be judged on 12 opportunities this fall. It is a results-driven business. We’re judged on results, not effort. So we understand that, and excited about the opportunities that we’re going to create this year. 

Kate Young: I heard you recently in an interview say, “This is our story for the people in this room.” Other people can’t talk about that. The outside people can’t talk about that. So I think that what you just touched on was kind of perfectly putting it as well. 

Barry Odom: Yeah. I think you look at, I don’t want to be defined on what Purdue football did last year. And then I can also go back to three years ago when Purdue was in the Big 10 Championship. I didn’t have anything to do with that either. Neither did this team. We’re only as good as what we create today, and then the body of work leading up to that point. And then tomorrow when we get up, it’s our job to make Purdue football better tomorrow than it was today. And then consistently, if you do that, eventually the results will take care of themselves. 

Kate Young: One day at a time. 

Barry Odom: That’s right. 

Kate Young: So how has your first summer been? What’s it been like here? 

Barry Odom: It’s been great. I lived in Las Vegas. My family and I did the last two years, so I would say much milder here than Vegas. A little slower paced, but it’s been great. The welcoming of the community and the state and all the people have been so great to myself and my family. We’ll be forever thankful for that. I think it’s a great college community that you can feel as the students start to come back to campus, you can feel it starting to become a little more alive. I’ve always loved living in college towns. There’s a different feel and a different vibe and a different energy. We’ll capture that and run with it to help our football program. 

Kate Young: Coach Odom is a former college football player himself. He was a starting linebacker for the University of Missouri in the nineties and helped the school make two bowl trips. He also served as the team captain during his senior season. Later, he went on to coach for multiple football programs, including UNLV and the University of Arkansas. So what lessons and experiences from his time playing and coaching is he using in his role here today at Purdue? 

Barry Odom: I think we all learn from our experiences. Some are really good experiences. Some are setbacks. When you’re open and really vulnerable with yourself on, okay, what we did worked, what did we do that we came up short. There’s always reasons on why you either had success or you didn’t, or you remove the ego from it, really get down to the core of what worked and maybe what do you need to improve on. So I think I’ve been able to take pieces with me from not only as a player from the leadership that I had a chance to play under, and then I was an assistant coach for a number of years, and then became a coordinator and then a head coach, and then step back into the coordinator’s role and then another head coaching opportunity. So you take experiences and pieces from all of that, and then my belief, then you blend those things together. And every single team is different. This team that I’ve currently got right now through the first part of fall camp, we’re certainly different than last year’s team. 

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:09:04] 

Barry Odom: Through the first part of fall camp, we’re certainly different than last year’s team. It doesn’t mean we’re better or worse, just every team’s different. Every group has different motivational beliefs. You’ve got to find ways… We’re educators, you’ve got to find ways to teach kids, teach young men, and then you’ve got to galvanize the group together as quickly as you can. You got to get everybody on the same page. 

So, I will reach back through experience that I’ve had, this is year 26 for me in coaching, from all of those years. And then when I even go back as a player, there’s some of the things that still are shown to me in these experiences to be true. 

Kate Young: Part of this is Purdue, we love having our athletics guests on, but we want to get to know you as a person. You seem very close with your family. You have three children, your wife, Tia. What has it been like to be back in the Midwest with your family? 

Barry Odom: It’s been great. Living in a college town, just the feel of that, this feels like home. My wife, Tia and I, have been married 25 years. We’ve met our sophomore year in college. She’s from a small farming town in the state of Missouri. I’m from a rural town in Oklahoma. We lived in Columbia, Missouri for a number of years, Fayetteville, Arkansas, and West Lafayette, it feels like home. Our kids, we’ve got three kids, two sons in college, and a daughter that’s going to be in the fifth grade, they have really embraced the opportunity to be here and it’s been great for our family. 

Kate Young: What has it been like with Garrett playing for you on the team this year? 

Barry Odom: Yeah, it’s harder on him than it is me, I would say. He goes in the locker room after a tough day at practice and everybody’s talking about the head coach who, well, that’s also his dad, so it’ll be a good experience for him. 

I had a chance to coach our oldest son at UNLV, he played for me for two years. So a little bit of that I’m using, and as close that our kids are in age, our two sons, they’re different as well. So, the approach in parenting, there’s times that I need to be the head coach and then there’s other times when I’m talking to him, obviously away from the office, that I’ve got to be dad. He has handled it really, really well. When they were growing up playing little league baseball and travel basketball and all those things, I always made an excuse that I was too busy to be their coach and I couldn’t get away, and the time commitment that it took, I didn’t feel like I could do it the right way. So, I never really saw them in that capacity as growing up for them. 

At that time, I was the head coach at Missouri, and if this didn’t work out, I’ll never take this opportunity for granted to have a chance to be not only their coach, but also my son sitting in the room, but also a little bit you look at… And I don’t want to minimize that question, because it is dear to my heart. As a coaching staff, we will always have the approach if we coach our team and our position groups just like they’re our son, then we know that we are doing right by them. And I believe in that, and I believe somebody across the country has trusted us with their son, we’ve got to pour into them. And if you do that in the right way and build a strong relationship, it’s so much bigger than the three and a half hours on Saturday afternoon that we get to go compete. 

Kate Young: That’s so special. So, your little one, Anna, is she a team helper? Does she like to be around? Does she stay out behind the scenes? 

Barry Odom: She could. My wife has done such a great job over the years on bringing the kids by practice. I think it’s most professions, they take time, you’re away from home. Coaching’s no different than that, so she’s always been able to bring them by practice, and when Anna shows up to practice she fits right in. You could say she’s grown up in a locker room and around it. She gets it at the age of 10, has never met a stranger, so it’s been pretty cool to watch her, how that fits in with a young girl and she looks at the team as her family. 

Kate Young: Oh, that’s so fun. You’ve been coaching for many years now. Are there any traditions that your family celebrates on a game day or any lucky shirts or breakfast, or- 

Barry Odom: Yeah, I think you look at, for us, I don’t know how my wife does it, throughout the years we have so many people, fortunately that, really close friends or family, that always come to games, whether it’s home or away, and somehow she gets it organized and handles it. I’m sure there are things that go on behind the scene about getting the tickets distributed, parking passes, hotels, food before and after the game. And we will have 20 plus every game, sometimes closer to 50. She just handles it. 

I’m sure they’ve got some routines that I don’t have any idea about. I know that we’ll always forever be thankful for that, because the game of sport brings people together. It’s a really small fraternity when you really look at it, the longer you’re in the business on bringing people together, and we’ve been fortunate over the years to… We’ve got a lot of really close friends that care about, take the title, take all that away, they care about how real friendship should be and that’s certainly special to us. 

Kate Young: Any boilermaker traditions? 

Barry Odom: We’re going to start. I know obviously the season is getting close, so she’s getting the logistics down on what that’s going to look like. It’s hard to win, but man, winning is fun. After this first game, we’ll be one and O, and we’re going to start something that will hold true for a number of years and a lot of wins. 

Kate Young: You heard it here first. One and O- 

Barry Odom: That’s the plan. 

Kate Young: … to start off the season. Coach Odom was born in Lawton, Oklahoma and raised in Maysville, Oklahoma with his parents and two brothers. I asked coach what his first memories of football were. 

Barry Odom: I was really fortunate because we lived less than an hour away from the University of Oklahoma’s campus. Early in, well, before I was born, my dad was a high school coach and then he got out of coaching and in another line of work, so sports were never forced on us at all, as I’ve got an older brother and a younger brother, so I was the middle. Was never forced on us, but also they wanted us to be involved in something, whether it was music or sport or activities, just to be involved. 

And if we were going to do them, we wanted to be competitive and you wanted to do as best as you could at it. And I, in a small town that I grew up in, I was always chasing my older brother and his friends or trying to compete with them. I gravitated towards sport. One of my best childhood friends, his dad was the high school football coach, and they had access passes to the University of Oklahoma, to practices and they had invite the high school coaches. So, I got to tag along a lot at an early age with that. 

And at that time, Coach Barry Switzer was the head coach at University of Oklahoma and they were having great success. They had won a number of national championships and I got to see up close and personal. That I remember really vividly in the fourth grade being able to go on the field and then in the locker room after the game. And that was really impactful for me to understand and seeing something so much bigger that I knew that even imaginable could become true. 

And then our parents, they always provided us opportunities. I ran summer track as well, and we would go all over the country doing that. So it exposed me to sport in a lot of different way, and also allowed me to see how important being able to have a routine and the consistency of, if you want to try to have success, on what that took. 

Kate Young: You’re known for that old school approach to football. How were you molded by this growing up? 

Barry Odom: I think just the values of growing up in a small town. Work ethic was so important, honesty, determination, grit, those things were just in the fabric of the community that I grew up in, certainly in our house. I think it also, when I went to the University of Missouri as a player, that’s how we turned that program around. There’d been a number of years that they had not had success. Larry Smith was the head coach when I was a player, and those are the values that he built the program on. 

I saw how it worked and then we turned into consecutive ball games. As a player, there’s a formula for that, I believe in that. Then I got to work for a guy named Gary Pinkle for a number of years who had the same values of what it looked like consistently to build a program. So, those are really, I’d say, what I was brought up on and saw how it worked and then had been able to put into action and it still holds true today. 

Kate Young: How do you picture that elevating Purdue’s program with those values and morals? 

Barry Odom: I think that’s what defines Purdue, I think what defined the fabric of what this place is. That’s why when the job came open, I was so attracted to it because, number one of leadership of Mike, but also of the Midwest region geographically. Years ago when I was a head coach at Missouri, we played a non-conference game here in 2018. It was a night game and I saw what Ross-Ade was. I’ve always had that in my mind, and then when I learned that this job was coming open, I was in full pursuit. 

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:18:04] 

Barry Odom: I learned that this job was coming open, I was in full pursuit. I believe in this place because of the values of the people, and I believe it can be a consistent winner at a high level. 

Kate Young: On a fun note, I’ve read that you like to cook. I believe it’s a direct quote that- 

Barry Odom: I like to eat. So in turn… 

Kate Young: Well that’s easy. Okay. 

Barry Odom: I do like to cook, good food. 

Kate Young: You said that you grill steaks better than St. Elmo’s which is a bold statement. 

Barry Odom: I’m going to go on record. That was a joke. St. Elmo’s is the best. I took a lot of heat for that comment. 

Kate Young: That’s why we’re asking you. 

Barry Odom: I’ll rival any steakhouse, but always St. Elmo’s, all the thing, the tradition, the history, unbelievable. As a family the time that you get to spend together, we enjoy, we’re normally outside around a pool and there’s usually a grill going and I enjoy that. My wife is the best cook I’ve ever been around, so I try to at least assist every now and then when I can. 

Kate Young: What’s your go-to meal to cook for the family? 

Barry Odom: If I had time and all three kids were at the house, if they said, “Hey dad, make this,” it would just be a steak. Wife would do the sides and it turns out pretty good. 

Kate Young: So you’re like a grill master. 

Barry Odom: I would say a grill master. Yeah. 

Kate Young: Love it. Okay, so refocusing on your time in Missouri, the grit, the discipline, we talked about, so vital to the Midwestern culture. How do you think that influences your strategy and your mentality here as the head coach? 

Barry Odom: Number one, it’s about the organization that we have built, the staff, the support staff, the assistant coaches, how we’re going to recruit to Purdue, the values that takes, I mean, it’s got to be a great fit. To come here educationally. The process of how we practice, not just during the season, but it’s a 12-month plan. And if you really, really like football, if you like the process of what that looks like, then this is going to be a wonderful place and we’re going to win a lot of games doing it that way. 

But it’s not for everybody. That is society, in my opinion. In the world of the Instagram society, that’s not how long sustained success is built in my opinion. It’s over time and it’s you’re going to have some setbacks, you’re going to have some great moments, but the ability to put blinders on and just keep moving forward, that’s what’s going to build this program. 

Kate Young: Speaking of recruiting, you were the director of recruiting at Missouri. How did this experience kind of shape how you look at recruiting today? 

Barry Odom: As our time goes on and things change, staffs become larger in numbers. When I was made the director of recruiting at the University of Missouri it was a department of one. It was me. So you learn by sometimes things you didn’t do well. Coach Pinkel at that time was, I mean he had a process and an approach on everything from recruiting to marketing to the X’s and O’s of the game and that blueprint are still some of the ways that we approach it today. So I feel like I know it in detail and very selective on how we’re going to go recruit in different areas of the country, whether high school recruiting or junior college or portal or four year transfer, whatever that looks like. We still have characteristics that we try to hit in every guy that we want on our team and in our program. So I think those experience, although they have changed over time, it’s still at the core of how we’re going to recruit. 

Kate Young: So speaking to your players today, sophomore offensive lineman, Ethan Trent, who’s the younger brother of the late Tyler Trent, received a scholarship during a recent spring practice. We’ll link that video for our viewers and listeners in the show notes. But what did that mean to you and what do you think that meant to the team to give that scholarship out? 

Barry Odom: Yeah. Normally, and I said this, I have given and awarded a number of walk-on scholarships over the years. I have never done it in a public setting. It’s always this either been in my office or a meeting room because you always look at, number one, he earned it. But then you look at the other guys on the roster that have also worked really hard that are walk-ons and they didn’t get awarded the scholarship so I never wanted this single out. 

But in this case was a little bit different to me. Number one, the first day I got the job and met with the team here, and then I went through and met with everybody that was still on the roster and it weren’t that many at the time because most other guys had left. But Ethan sat down in the office as genuine and confidently as he could, just looked me straight in the eye and said, “I’m going to be your hardest worker.” He said, “All I’m asking for is an opportunity.” I gave him a word that we would do that from the day we started, I think January 13th with our workouts, he’s been a great leader. He has given his max effort every single day. He cares so deeply about this university and program, and then also he’s a pretty good football player. 

So all those things combined, it was exciting to be able to reward him for that. He earned every step of the way. And then I knew that the team, I could watch as we started in January the team gravitate and follow his leadership, not only vocally, but by example, and I knew that the team would rally around that opportunity and what a great moment it was. 

Kate Young: We’ve had the Trent family on This is Purdue and we’re just so happy for Ethan. 

Barry Odom: Yeah, that’s awesome. 

Kate Young: What do you think the overall attitude and motivation that you want to instill in the team? How will that set Purdue Football apart from other Big 10 schools? 

Barry Odom: We understand that this program works. I don’t say that arrogantly, I’m just confident in what it is and our guys. They will have success because of the habits and the preparation and the work that they put in. And then the challenge is can you do it every single day? I have talked to them more recently about every habit that we have is creating and is exposed on game day and whether they’re winning habits that’s going to get exposed and if they’re not, that’s going to get exposed as well. I think our guys are understanding that. They see the proof in that. 

And then also then the challenge becomes, can you do it every single day? And when you do it, then you can go into the stadium, you can go into Ross-Ade or whoever we’re playing, and then it’s a nameless, faceless opponent. The opponent is the guy looking back at you in the mirror. Can you prepare? Are you willing to do that? Are you disciplined enough to do that every single day? And if you are, then game days should be exhilarating because you can go play free and play confident and play fast. The results take care of themselves. I believe the more people, the quicker we can get into that mindset in the organization, that is going to set us apart. 

Kate Young: So hot off the press, hard, smart, tough, our new Coach Odom T-shirt. For our YouTube viewers, you can see it. For our listeners, I have a special code for you. What inspired the saying? Tell us the behind the scenes of this motto. 

Barry Odom: In the world of college football, do I get a NIL deal with that? I didn’t sign any paperwork on that. 

Kate Young: I’ll check on that. 

Barry Odom: Yeah, get back to me on that. 

So I was an assistant coach. I was coaching the secondary at University of Missouri mid 2000s, a guy named Justin Fuente who grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I knew we were the same graduating high school class. He went to the University of Oklahoma, played quarterback, transferred to Murray State, and we had kept in touch. And then I was a high school coach right out of college and he was coaching at Illinois State at the time. He recruited my school. So we just kind of had ways that we stayed in contact. He was a running backs coach at TCU and got the head coaching job at the University of Memphis. So Justin called and asked if I wanted to interview to be the defensive coordinator there. 

So I was a position coach at Missouri. The next step for me in my mind was, okay, I’m ready to be a coordinator. Let’s go try to find a job. To do that at that time, Memphis was about as low as you could be as far as success in college football. It was 2011. So I interviewed and got the job. When I went to work for Coach Fuente, he developed those three qualities, that saying, hard, smart and tough. And then the qualities that go within that on the discipline and the structure and all the different things. It’s just an easy, quick way to give a point to your team and then you can go as detailed as you want about what each one of them means and why that will prove to be successful for us. 

So we built that program. I was there for three years. One of the most rewarding three years I’ve ever had a chance to be a part of in coaching because of Coach Fuente’s leadership. It always rings true to me on those things and qualities that it takes to be successful, not just in the sport of football, but academically and socially and in life. The third year we were there, we won 10 plus games, won our conference and we flipped the program. And then I left and went back to the University of Missouri. He got the Virginia Tech job. But I’ve always, I’ve used it. So credit goes back to him on really, he taught me what that looked like. I guess I would have to share part of that NIL with Coach Fuente. 

Kate Young: The deal needs to be shared. 

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04] 

Barry Odom: … have to share part of that NIL with Coach Fuente. 

Kate Young: The deal needs to be shared. 

Barry Odom: That’s right. 

Kate Young: So speaking of the NIL, this is timely news here, on June 6th this year, the ruling of the House versus the NCAA settlement began allowing direct payments from schools to athletes. How has that changed your job? 

Barry Odom: The world of college football, just with the rules, have changed more in the last two years than probably the last 25 combined. I’m a firm believer in student athletes receiving some benefit, I think that’s important. When you look at the number of dollars that are brought in every single year through sport, the ability to be able to distribute that is important. I also think there are things within the rules that we need to slow down on just a little bit. The education piece is so important, on financial literacy, paying taxes, a number of things on budgeting money, so we do all those things. 

For a team, I believe in being able to spread the wealth, so to speak, and I think that is healthy when you’re able to do that. I think there’s some incentive-based things on ability to connect with the community and assist in being a great member of the community, academically, responsibility, longevity in the program, retention of your student athletes. All those things go into how we’re setting up the opportunity for our kids to make money, and I think we’re slowly moving in the direction with some rules on putting guardrails on what it really needs to look like. We’re still a little ways away, in my opinion, on really having structure of what everybody in the country is doing. Somebody’s always trying to find a way around the rule. If we all just do what the rules are and get the rules set, number one, and do what they are, it’ll be healthy for the game of football. 

Kate Young: You talked about Mike Bobinski and his leadership earlier, so with major support from him and the entire athletics program, how do you see ruling and revenue sharing increasing the team and players’ competitive edge on and off the field? 

Barry Odom: The great thing in the Big 10 conference, Mike has said, and we continue to take this approach, we’re not going to take a back seat to anybody in this world, that I think it will even the playing field. As you look at college sport now, on the way that things are distributed, there’s got to be rules in place for it to be the same for everyone, and when we do that, it’ll help us out, because cost of living here for a student athlete is certainly much better than living in Los Angeles, for example. So there’s ways that creatively we can find advantages, and we’re working every single day to find a way to get that done. 

Kate Young: Purdue announced its Victories and Heroes campaign earlier this year. It’s the largest Purdue fundraising campaign to date, and we want to raise $4 billion by early 2030. How do you see this campaign and the donor engagement benefiting the team and the long-term success? 

Barry Odom: You look at the educational experience, certainly at Purdue, it’s different than most places, but the 10 square miles or so that Purdue University is sitting on, there’s nothing like it in the world, and the more that we can pour into impacting students in this case, the better our society is going to be. Football plays a small part of that, because if we can create momentum and excitement, that is going to help kick off the school year, because we’re the first sport that plays. 

I’ve often said, and some look at it with a frown, and then others, once they take time to process it, your football program, your athletic department, if you look at the university in total, the athletic department can be the front porch of your house, because you’re on display. We are, for 12 Saturdays, anywhere in the world, if you have the opportunity to have television or internet, you can watch us play. So the brand is on display and the Purdue logo is for everyone, and it’s a strong logo across the world. So in my opinion, for our team, we represent something so much bigger than ourselves, so much bigger than the 2025 football program at Purdue. We represent everyone, whether you like football or not or sport, we’re still that brand is out there and I feel the responsibility, the deep responsibility, to put a football team in position to represent all those people in winning ways. 

Kate Young: I love that. That’s a fantastic point, that athletics is the front door of Purdue as a home, right? 

Barry Odom: You look at on the last Saturday in August, there’ll be close to 60,000 people that are cheering for the Boilermakers. That is impactful when you look at the difference you can make by playing winning football. And then, that excitement and that momentum is captured and it carries on to the next week, and if you do it right, then it bleeds out through the entire country of the people that care about Purdue. 

Kate Young: We’ve talked about your background, your family, your leadership style, what’s a final message that you have for Boilermaker football fans out there? 

Barry Odom: I’m honored to be the head coach here. As you gain experience, the opportunities that come with sitting in the chair as the head coach, I’ve got tremendous vision, belief, and also responsibility to represent them the right way. We’re going to play in a way with our style of football that will resonate with the Purdue Faithful. We will win, that’s going to happen. I need their support, unwavering support, and it’s been that way for seven months and I know it’s going to continue. We need to turn Ross-Ade into one of the toughest places to play in college football. I know I’ve got a job to do to get our team ready, honored to represent them, we’re going to do it the right way. Boiler up. 

Kate Young: I just bought my Purdue IU 100th Old Oaken Bucket game tickets yesterday, I’m super excited. 

Barry Odom: I’ll be there. 

Kate Young: I’m glad you will be. 

Barry Odom: Friday after Thanksgiving. 

Kate Young: Friday night. 

Barry Odom: Friday night. 

Kate Young: I’m excited. 

Barry Odom: What a great scene that’s going to be. 

Kate Young: I made the mistake of marrying a Hoosier, so it’s a house divided. 

Barry Odom: Somebody’s got to. 

Kate Young: Well, Coach, thank you again, it was a pleasure having you. Anything else that you want to tell our listeners? 

Barry Odom: No, I appreciate you guys. 

Kate Young: Absolutely. 

Barry Odom: It’ll be here quick. 

Kate Young: It will be. Wow, we are so thankful Coach Odom gave us his time and joined us on This is Purdue to kick off our fall season. Right after the interview, we gifted Coach with his very own special shirt featuring his motto, “Hard, smart, tough.” And remember, you can get your own coach Barry Odom T-shirt by using code THISISPURDUE for 20% off a single item at the official Purdue team store. If you want to see the T-shirt and other bonus video clips from this episode, go check out our podcast YouTube channel, youtube.com/@thisispurdue, and while you’re there, please hit that subscribe button. We’re wishing Coach Odom and the entire Purdue football program the best of luck this season. Boiler up. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with Zach Mogensen, Alli Chaney and Matt Kerkhoff. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production assistant is Dalani Young. Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler up. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

This is Jeanne Boyd, and you’re listening to This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators, who are these Boilermakers. Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps toward their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Sports don’t happen in a vacuum. And even some of the events that surround sports, it is so interdisciplinary. One of the pieces that’s going to set us apart is the fact that we’re going to rely on industry experts to help us build that curriculum. We’re going to stay not just on trend but ahead of the trend. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to Jeanne Boyd, Executive Director of Sport Management and Senior Advisor to the Provost at Purdue University. Jeanne is leading Purdue’s new master’s degree program in sport management, an interdisciplinary program with courses taught at both the West Lafayette and Indianapolis locations. That includes hands-on opportunities with Purdue Athletics, Indiana Sports Corp, and other industry leaders. The program starts this fall of 2025 and will be housed in the College of Health and Human Sciences with offerings led by the College of Science and Department of Computer Science. Jeanne discusses the wide variety of careers students can pursue in the sports industry from sport marketing, sport analytics, organizational leadership, ticketing, sales, sponsorships, and venue management, plus sport analytics and AI in technology and sport. This new program reflects Purdue’s commitment to meeting workforce demands and preparing students for future career success in a dynamic and evolving industry. 

Jeanne is also a veteran with national respect in the sports industry. She previously spent over a decade as the managing director of the Division I Men’s Basketball Championship at the NCAA. It’s safe to say she knows a thing or two about March Madness and the behind-the-scenes work it takes to put on a massive event like that. We’re diving into all of this and more in today’s episode. Here’s my conversation with Jeanne. 

Jeanne, thank you so much for joining us on This is Purdue. We’re delighted to have you and talk to you today. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Hey, thank you so much for inviting me. This is really special. I’m excited. 

Kate Young: 

We’re excited to have you. You are the executive director of Purdue’s new master’s program in sport management. This is taught at both West Lafayette campuses and Indianapolis campuses, and there’s so many hands-on things that you’re going to tell us about with the program. We’re partnered with Purdue Athletics, Indiana Sports Corporation, other sports industry leaders. We’re excited to jump into that, jump into your personal journey in the sports world, but first things first. 

How did you come to Purdue? And tell us a little bit about your role here. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

I was so fortunate to be able to work at a high level of college athletics. The highest level, actually. From undergrad, I was at a very large SEC institution, and then I went to another SEC institution, which was large, then a conference office which was also Division I, and then the national office. And at some point in time, though, you start thinking about your position in life. How do you give back? When do you give back? And the responsibility to give back. And I felt that this was a perfect opportunity to do that. 

That, plus you take into consideration just the academic success that is unmatched here at Purdue. The fact that you have an athletic department which is unbelievably successful. You have a brand that is nationally and internationally recognized, and also our Purdue and Indianapolis campus. It just felt like all the stars were aligned, and it was going to be a perfect opportunity for me. 

Kate Young: 

What are you most excited about for this role? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

I’m surprised by how excited I am. I’m really excited about the interdisciplinary collaboration. Sports don’t happen in a vacuum. And even some of the events that surround sports, it is so interdisciplinary. I was thinking as I was preparing for today that, if you gave me a specific discipline or major at Purdue, I could make a tie to every single one. It doesn’t matter what it is. Veterinary science. Bomb dogs. Agricultural, where you had your turf management. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes- 

Kate Young: 

The Cubs. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes. Amazing. It is just such an interdisciplinary effort. I think that that’s what makes it special. 

Kate Young: 

And I know we’ll get into this, but a lot of people, I think, talk about the glitz and glamour of sports, and there’s so many behind-the-scenes roles that are so important and are new and that didn’t exist 10 years ago probably. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

That’s very true. 

Kate Young: 

We’ll dive into that. Sports is such a fast-growing industry. It generates billions of dollars in Indiana, and it’s expected to grow 11% nationwide by 2033. 

What should students be excited about with this new master’s degree program? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

We’ve worked with industry experts to help us build this. And at the end of the day, we think we’ve built something that is innovative. It’s forward-thinking. It addresses the fact that sport, not just college sport but sport across the board, is ever-changing. I don’t know if this is because I’m getting older, but it feels like time is going by quicker, but it is in a perpetual state of change. It addresses that. 

It’s a 36-hour residential program. And courses, as you mentioned, will be taught in both West Lafayette and down in Indianapolis. And one of the things that I think is going to set us apart is, once students are accepted into the program, we’re going to sit down with them and conduct an in-depth interview to find out their area of specialty or interest or, again, just area of, again, almost specialization. 

Every student’s going to have to complete six courses of foundational knowledge, and those are all housed in HHS. And those include things like sport management and sport business, business law, business communication, things of that nature that, regardless of what area of specialization you go into, there’s an application that’s there. 

But then after that, every student’s roadmap is customized to their area of interest. And we’ll get to the point that maybe somebody doesn’t know which way they’re going to go, and that’s okay. But if they do know their way to go, they have four additional courses that they have to take that are electives outside of the department that will be tailored again to their specific area of interest. And then they have 450 hours of hands-on work where we’ve partnered with industry partners and university departments here to also match those areas of interest. 

For example, if somebody comes in, and in their interview they say, “Hey, I would love to be a sport information director,” they’d have to take those six courses that, again, apply to everybody. But then those four courses … They might take something like public relations, public speaking, that I did not take that I would wish at this moment that I would’ve taken. Communications. And then maybe a data analytics and sport class and an AI and technology and sport class. And then those 450 hours will also be targeted in the sport information world. And again, we’ll work with our industry partners to make those opportunities available. 

Kate Young: 

It sounds like you’re zeroing in on what they’re passionate about, but then if they don’t know, there are paths for those people who don’t know either. Right? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Right. And you know what? If you come in as a generalist, and you have no idea which direction you want to go, we’ll be able to just start them off somewhere, wherever they might think they have an inkling. And you know what? If that doesn’t work, that’s okay because I think you learn oftentimes just as much about what you don’t like or where you don’t want to go. And it’s not necessarily meaning that it’s a negative experience, but you can say, “Hey, I’m not really … I don’t love kids. I don’t want to be around kids. I do not want to be a high school teacher,” whatever it may be. But you learn just as much from that, so we will redirect that. Yes. 

Kate Young: 

Downtown Indy is such a special place. It’s the amateur sports capital of the world. We have the WNBA All-Star Game coming up this summer. We have the 2026 NCAA Final Four in Indy again. It’s home to the Colts, the Fever, the Pacers. 

Why should students be excited about leveraging Indy and their position in the sports industry when it comes to this degree? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Indianapolis has created such a special opportunity and almost an ecosystem that doesn’t exist anywhere else. There’s a lot of different components to this. The first component is, well, what makes them set themselves apart? The first thing is, going back in history, in 1979 … Was anybody even alive in 1979 in this room? 

Kate Young: 

Two? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Two. Three? They created the first sport commission in the United States. Since then, it’s been setting the tone of, how did these large cities, usually, attract and also host these large-scale events? They’ve really set the tone for every other city in the world. There’s this historical significance. 

The second piece that sets Indianapolis apart is that they have world-class facilities. Everything is walkable, is the third piece. And they also have all these tremendous hotels and restaurants. The other piece is the fact that we have now a campus down there in Indianapolis. All those things together make for a perfect almost ecosystem. In a sense, I think of it as, if you wanted to be in film, it doesn’t matter if you’re an actor, a director, a producer, or if you’re a camera person or in special effects. You’re going to Hollywood. Right? 

Kate Young: 

Going to LA. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

That’s exactly right. To back up, the other thing that Indianapolis has is just an unmatched level of direction or leadership. Patrick Talty there at the Sports Corp, he understands kind of the broader picture and all of the things that are needed to host and support these events. Again, they’ve got almost, again, a broader sense of the economic impact and the infrastructure and things that are needed and the lasting effects that hosting these types of event brings with it. 

Anyway, if you are … Again, it doesn’t matter what your area of specialization is. If you want to be in film, you’re going to Hollywood, and that’s what they’re creating in Indianapolis. If you want to be in sports, Indianapolis is the place to be. 

Kate Young: 

I’ll never forget … I’m from Fort Wayne. Smaller than Indy. And I went to my first NCAA Final Four. Maybe it was in 2010. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes. Yes. Butler’s run. Butler’s run. Loved it. 

Kate Young: 

And it was just this whole the vibes of the city and how hospitable Hoosiers are, right? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

There were so many pieces and parts that I was just so proud to now be living in Indy and be a part of that. It’s such a special place. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

And you should be proud of it. I mean, again, in my previous role as the managing director of the Men’s Final Four, I had, again, the privilege to work across all cities that submitted bids. They were able to host the event. I remember as a part of the post-tournament evaluation that we conduct with all the Final Four teams plus the host city to basically say, “Hey, what can we approve upon? How can we do things better? What issues came up that were not detailed in our directions or bid specifications?” And I talked to the person who ran all the volunteer stuff, and I said, “Coming into this again, what set them apart?” And it was very clear that it’s this really nice balance of knowledgeable staff. They’ve hosted all of these events, and they do it really, really well. Mixed with an interest in almost an evolution or an evolvement of the event. As events continue to grow and whatnot, they’re open to all of those things, but also preserving the Hoosier hospitality just made such a special combination. 

When I worked for the Final Four, I was also the main point of contact for the NABC, which is the National Association of Basketball Coaches, and they host their yearly convention in conjunction with the Final Four. You had basketball coaches coming in from Divisions I, II, III, high school coaches from all over the country, and they have a board of directors that at the end of the Final Four, they submit these recommendations for future years, and they wanted the Final Four to … Can we set up an opportunity where it rotates between two specific cities? And one of those was Indianapolis. And I had to gently explain that there’s a little bit of taxing. It’s a heavy load. It’s a heavy load in a sense of personnel and volunteerism and all of those things, but there’s also a financial heavy load, so we do need to spread it around a little bit. But based on their experience only … Again, these are folks that are coming in from all around the country. They wanted to just narrow it down to two different cities, and Indianapolis being one of those. 

Kate Young: 

We know Indy is special. West Lafayette is also special. The program here on campus in West Lafayette will be housed right next to Purdue Athletics. 

What does that mean for students? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Oh, my gosh. Yes, we are in Lambert, which is connected through a tunnel right directly to Mackey. Those students who decide to come and experience the program from a West Lafayette perspective gives them the opportunity to get behind the scenes to, again, one of the most respected and successful athletic programs in the country. 

Again, not only being connected physically, but we do have a great partnership with Purdue Athletics that will offer these students a behind-the-scenes look at a wide variety of opportunities or what are potential jobs. I don’t think people understand the depth and breadth of the different opportunities that are available. In my mind, if you think about sport management, you might think about coaching or essentially managing, whatever that may be, but I would encourage folks to take a minute and look at our team link that’s there on Purdue Athletics website to see the depth and breadth of opportunities because it is crazy, but it’ll give them a behind-the-scenes look at what opportunities are available. 

Also, an opportunity to be connected with those professionals because they’ll be guest speakers in our classroom. They’ll serve on a board that’s helping us continuously look at the curriculum and make sure that it is evolving and keeps up with trends and things of that nature. It’s going to be fun. 

Kate Young: 

With things like the NIL in the news everywhere now, this increased regulation at the professional level of sports, how will this degree program at Purdue support this need for flexibility in an industry that’s always changing? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

You’re exactly right. It is changing every day. I feel for the commissioners and the athletic directors and the NCAA and all of those that are involved from an administrative perspective, that it’s changing constantly, and it’s almost like they’re whipping in the wind. 

I think one of the pieces that’s going to set us apart is the fact that we’re going to rely on industry experts to help us build that curriculum. We’re going to stay not just on trend but ahead of the trend. Not only will they be involved from an advisory perspective, but they’re also going to serve as, in some cases, adjunct professors. Guest speakers. They’ll also serve as mentors and more of those types of tangential touch points with our students. They’ll oversee kind of … 

Again, we talked about the hands-on experience and the 450 hours that they have to complete. They’re also providing those opportunities. They’ll give feedback on job performance and what’s needed. Because actually right now there’s a lot of conversation about there being a little bit of a disconnect between when folks come out of graduation versus what the industry needs. These folks, again, being so well-connected with them and being essentially friends, they’re going to allow us and provide feedback to help us bridge that gap or close that gap. 

Kate Young: 

Before coming to Purdue, we touched on this a little bit, but you spent over a decade leading operations as the managing director of the NCAA Division I Men’s Basketball Tournament. I’m sure a lot of our listeners are excited to hear some more behind-the-scenes- 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Oh, boy. 

Kate Young: 

… details of that job and what that entails. Tell us about your path to the NCAA and what led you on that journey and through that role. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Looking back to undergrad … And I think a lot of your guests that have come on the podcast have said that their journey wasn’t linear. That’s certainly the case for me. I started out as an accounting major. Well, I love numbers, I love money, but that did not work for me. I was like, “This is so boring.” Then I shifted to being a business major. That didn’t work either. And then I was in education. And again, as looking back, that didn’t seem linear at the time, and I felt like I was kind of in this weird place, and my parents certainly didn’t think it was very logical at the time. 

But looking back, sport management has elements of all of those things. You’re preparing budgets. You’re doing organizational leadership, learning how to communicate with folks. There’s an educational component in a sense that, with a local organizing committee, you had all of these meetings where you would educate them on what’s needed and what we need. Here are all the logistics of it. It’s just so multifaceted and so multidisciplinary. 

Up until the day my dad passed away, every time I called, and I had been directing the Men’s Final Four for eight years, he would say, “Don’t tell me. You called me to say you changed your major.” I was like, “Dad, I have a PhD.” 

Kate Young: 

We’re too far down now. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Right. Right. Again, it wasn’t linear. It wasn’t logical. But looking back, just because, at that point in time … Again, I’m older than everybody in this room. That opportunity wasn’t available, but it’s so multidisciplinary. 

Kate Young: 

I can’t imagine the logistics and coordination that it takes to put on an event that big. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

It’s crazy. It is absolutely crazy. 

Kate Young: 

Tell us some insider info. Some behind-the-scenes stories. What’s something that’s really memorable from your time in that role? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

The memories for me … There are a couple of special ones. You mentioned the Butler run in 2010 was memorable only because when you work at either a conference office or the NCAA, you’re coached, and it’s the expectation that you’re neutral. You want everyone to have the same experience. You don’t have any type of emotional investment on who wins and who moves on through the bracket. 

To me, it was, again, take the names off. It was really boring to have the same four teams there every single year. I always loved when somebody kind of- 

Kate Young: 

The underdog? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes. Yes, absolutely loved that. Absolutely loved it. 

Kate Young: 

The Cinderella story. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes, yes, yes. That was really fun. But my most memorable moments of working in that for over a decade wasn’t really a individual moment or an event, but it was more so the relationships that were built behind the scenes. 

Every year, we had 13 preliminary round sites, which in my mind, again, is kind of one unit of the Final Four. And then the Final Four itself is its whole other entity. It’s the same staff that works both of them, but they’re very, very different. Talking about the preliminary rounds, there’s a responsibility to have kind of a cross section of West Coast, the Middle America, East Coast to make sure that it covers all the different television zones and things like that. But there are a handful of tournament managers who are usually deputy athletic directors that we would come back year after year, and it would be the same … Not year after year, but a couple of times next times bids came open that ended up being my best friends in the business. 

You’re in it at a pace that is unbelievable. You’re working, I would say, at least 70 hours a week. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

You’re in the trenches with these folks, and you just … You’re there with them for so many hours a day, and you have no idea what it’s like coming down the pike, what issues you’re going to hit, and through all of that, you’re essentially in the trenches with them. 

There’s a handful of tournament managers across the country. There’s about six of us that established almost this clique. It’s almost like being in a high school, being new to a high school, and you don’t know what lunch table you’re going to sit at, and you end up finding your people, and this is the exact same situation. And you find your people by trust, by mutual respect, by accountability, availability, consistency in management. Those folks have ended up being some of my best friends. 

And it was also special because we grew up together. We all started around the same age. Even though our professions have taken different twists and turns, we still have a text string together, and we make fun of each other and tease each other, but at the same time, we’re still supportive of each other. That’s what really has stuck with me and will stick with me for the rest of my life, is the friendships and the connections. 

Kate Young: 

We were talking earlier this week. I think something that people might not necessarily think of is how secretive and basically locked down you had to be in your role when you talked about a police officer was guarding the door. Tell us a little bit about the process of choosing cities. Choosing the team’s selections. I know our listeners and viewers will be super interested in those little behind-the-scenes stories. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

There are two separate processes. The whole site selection thing is important because, again, you should … In a perfect world, you’ll be able to balance an East Coast site and a West Coast site. And not dating myself, but back when I was doing it, there were only seven cities that could host the event, meaning that they would have the facility requirements that were needed. They had the hotel and essentially the infrastructure that was required. We developed this big bid specification notebook that was probably 200 pages long that talked about everything from the broad brushstrokes of what’s required down to the height and the width and the depth of the tables and the candlelight strength in the competition venue. It was just ad nauseam detail. 

Versus the selection seating and bracketing thing is something that’s completely separate. That happens right before selection Sunday. That’s about a week-long event. You’re in lockdown where they would set aside … There was a specific hotel down in Indianapolis that we would go to that no one was allowed to visit the floor. We bought out the entire floor. There was a guard who was an Indiana state police officer, who was absolutely wonderful, who was positioned right there at the elevator bank. He had a list of every single person plus their headshot, so he knew who was supposed to be on the floor. And anyone else who would try to get off that floor, obviously he wouldn’t let them. But when I first started, I remember helicopters flying, circling the facility. There were no deliveries that would be accepted. 

Kate Young: 

No lunch deliveries. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

No deliveries. 

Kate Young: 

Delivery driver could overhear something. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

That’s right. Well, and it was a lot of institutions who might be considered right there on the bubble would send pages. And again, I’m dating myself. It would send pages and pages of information to basically bolster their position as to why they should be- 

Kate Young: 

“This is why we deserve to be in the- 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes. We closed down every phone line, so you couldn’t call our individual rooms. It was absolutely crazy, but it is a real protective environment, free as possible of any type of bias. Perception is reality in a sense that, if there were teams that were involved in the discussion … I remember one year we had Mike Slive, who was the commissioner of the SEC Southeastern Conference. And anytime an SEC team was discussed, he would have to leave the room. And if I remember correctly, there were a handful, five, six, seven institutions that were in the SEC that were up for discussion. And so, he would have to leave the room. He was out of the selection room just as much as he was in there. 

But again, just to be able to look everyone in the face and say, “Hey, look, this is completely free of bias.” He wasn’t even in the room. He didn’t submit a vote. It was an independent decision. A collective decision. I think that that gave it a little bit of credence. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. That’s fascinating. 

We talked about you changed your major several times, it sounds, but what was that turning point for you that you were like, “I really want to pursue sports as a career,”? 

Did you grow up just loving sports? Walk us through that. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

I grew up in a family. I’m one of five children. I’m a four of five. The best, number four of five. I have three brothers and a sister. And our household was incredibly competitive. Hyper-competitive. Unhealthily. Unhealthy competitive. We would compete at every level. I remember my first memories again are probably field day in elementary school, and I may or may not still have the 50-yard dash record at the elementary school. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s do a fact check on that- 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes, please. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Heights Elementary. Spring, Texas. 

But all of my brothers competed, and my sister competed, and just this unhealthy hyper-competitive. It wasn’t even really about sports at the time. It was who could unload the dishwasher the fastest. Who had read the most books over the summer months? 

Kate Young: 

Your parents are smart. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Oh, my gosh. Yes. My dad was an engineer and military, so it was a no-nonsense type of household. And again, every day, life is about competition. And then mom was a nurse. 

My earliest memories revolve around, again, playing football in the backyard or the elementary school field day. But one memory that stands out to me that is kind of full circle is we have to picture it. It is Spring, Texas 1983-ish. I was playing seventh grade basketball, and we were on our way to a tournament. I remember it like it was yesterday. It was a double-elimination tournament. And we’re about to pull out of the parking lot, and our coach comes down the little skinny aisle, and she’s handing us copies of the bracket. She hands one to me. By the way, I had the pigtails. I had the tube socks pulled up high. I was wearing the blue-and-gold polyester, scratchy uniform. She hands out the bracket, and we’re at a number seven or whatever seed, and I thought, how did we arrive at this number seven? Who designed this? How did it come about? Why are we seven when we’ve already played against number one and number four, and we’ve beaten both of them? 

And so I was just fascinated by the inner workings of not only the bracketing piece, if we win, we go here. If we lose, we go here, but also just the behind-the-scenes operational detail of it. Who is calling to make sure we have referees? Who’s calling to make sure we have an official score? Does that even matter in seventh grade basketball? I don’t know. But again, it just became a very full-circle moment that I remembered. 

And also with it being a double-elimination tournament, it’s a little bit confusing. If you win, you go here. And I remember trying to gently … She said, “If we win, we play this time. If we lose, we play it this time.” And I remember going, “No, no, no, no. If we lose, we actually go over here.” Again, I’ve just been fascinated. Again, maybe it’s genetic with dad being the engineer and military, but I’ve always been fascinated with the behind-the-scenes work. 

Kate Young: 

And then fast-forward, and you’re literally just deciding- 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes. Yes. 

Kate Young: 

… where people go. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes, yes, and the bracket, actually, would come off of my computer. I facilitated the selection seating and bracketing process. Gosh, and that’s a whole ‘nother level of- 

Kate Young: 

Secrecy? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

… secrecy and pressure. The committees are … At that time, again, it was a 10-member committee, and they were usually athletic directors or conference commissioners, but there’s a requirement to make sure that there’s a balance of representation from East Coast to Central, all the different time zones, plus the level. They all had to be Division I. But the different sizes of institutions. There had to be a cross-section of representation. 

Again, the fascinating thing was they served four-year terms, but they would rotate off every four years. The addition or subtraction of one person was just kind of this fascinating case study because it would change the whole dynamics in the room. But it was really fun to … Again, you’re in the trenches with them. You’re talking about teams for 12 hours, at least, a day. 

And there were some instances when I was like, “For the love of the Lord, can someone just please vote? Let’s just call for a vote. We’d had enough discussion.” It was really fun. And again, you’re in the trenches with them, so you develop these relationships. And some of them would feel the pressure during the selection piece, whether or not the team is in or out. Others would feel the highest point of pressure being where their seed was. Isn’t that interesting? In my mind, for me, it’d be whether they’re in or out. After that, it’s up to them, right? 

Kate Young: 

Sure. Sure. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

But, well, every- 

Kate Young: 

It’s all the dominoes and how they fall into place depending on the seed, right? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

I can kind of see that side of it, too, I guess. Women are increasingly stepping into leadership roles in the sports industry. People in general are getting more excited about women’s sports. You think about Caitlin Clark coming to Indy with the Fever. Our own Boilermaker, Stephanie White, is now the Fever head coach. 

What will that mean for the future of the industry to have more female voices? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

When I walked into that room for selection, and again, I was facilitating the process, so I would lead them and say, “Hey, this is what you’re doing,” I never once gave a thought to, my goodness, I’m the only woman in this room. 

Kate Young: 

Interesting. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

I never once thought about that, I think because I looked at him and thought, you don’t have anything on my brothers. They were so mean and brutal. They would say, “Hey, go run deep. Do a slant.” And so I’d go, and I’d run the little football pad, and they would never throw me the ball. On one hand, I wasn’t ever … I didn’t ever feel intimidated, but I knew I had to have my ducks in order. 

And I was also very appreciative for all the women who came before me because, if not, this opportunity wouldn’t be afforded. We talked a little bit about Indianapolis. They also set the tone way back in 1979 when they developed that first sport commission. They also identified a woman who was the first president of the Indiana Sports Corp, which, in 1979, that was unheard of. Again, I’m just so appreciative of all the women who came before. 

There’s been a lot of conversation on your podcast about the implication and the effects and of everything from Amelia Earhart who was ahead of her time. I feel privileged to have been a part of the sport evolution where, when I first started, it was an exception. Now, it’s an expectation. And it’s not about really representation. It’s about women being put in positions of executive level. You think about Mel Raines, who’s down there, who is a CEO of Pacers Sports & Entertainment, but I don’t think we do a really good enough job of celebrating that because Mel is amazing. 

But there’s also Allison Melangton who was the head of the Super Bowl back in 2012. Again, we don’t hear her name enough. But under her leadership, we set what which is widely known as being the most successful Super Bowl in recent history. You have people like Julie Rowe who is the commissioner of the Horizon League, which is down in Indianapolis, and she’s the first woman to chair the Indy Sports Corp. You have Susan Baughman ran the college football playoff in 2022. Every single Final Four in recent memory for me. She’s also overseeing or directing the NBA All-Star Game. The WNBA All-Star Game. 

These are women who … Again, it’s not about representation. It’s about them being in positions where they are, again, executive directors and just making a real impact. 

Kate Young: 

What advice do you give to young women when it comes to pursuing a degree in the sports industry? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

I would tell them to be prepared to work your butt off. And that’s not any different for women versus men, but it is so competitive. Life is competitive, again, as I mentioned, but it is about setting yourself apart from these other 300 applicants. That I would tell them to be passionate about it. Be a really, really good team player because that’s a whole ‘nother part of it. And be curious. Don’t be afraid to ask questions. And also surround yourself with people like you. It’s about finding your people. 

Kate Young: 

Just like you did. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Yes, just like I did. And again, we talked about Susan Baughman, and we haven’t mentioned people like Joanne Briett who is on the board of trustees here. She is such a, again, fascinating case study. I keep telling her that she needs to run for office and that I would be her campaign manager. She doesn’t want to do that. She’s kind of giving me the thumbs down on it. That she’s so impactful. Been almost kind of behind the scenes, and that’s where she’s most comfortable. But also people like Dean Flesch. Lucy Flesch has her fingerprints all over the sport management program. Again, it’s not about representation. It’s about influence and creating the next generation of sport leaders. 

Kate Young: 

You talked about how you had to stay neutral for a long time. How does it feel to wear black and gold and truly be a Boilermaker and support Purdue? 

Jeanne Boyd: 

And mean it. It has been so special. You and I talked about this off camera, but being able to be here in West Lafayette and Purdue is really, really special. I really feel like I have made friends here that will be friends for the rest of my life. 

Now, throughout my career, I’ve had an opportunity to work across a lot of different campuses, whether I worked at them, or they were part of the … When I was an associate commissioner, one of the member institutions, or Final Four, I’ve worked with several, several campuses. I also had, again, brothers and sisters who went to … At the time were Southwest converts or whatever, but they went to University of Texas and Texas A&M and the Naval. I’ve had exposure to a lot of different campuses. 

Purdue is just something that is really special. I mean, it is a really unique blend of humility and almost understatement, but at the same time kicking ass. I mean, they are incredibly … And that is Joanne Briett, right? It is this understated excellence and this, again, just humility and friendship. I am so proud to be a part of the Purdue community and take that, I don’t want to say position, but opportunity very seriously. 

The other thing that really is special about Purdue is that it is generationally deep. And again, it’s weirdly collegial in a sense that, when you’re in the SEC, you are not going to see University of Florida and University of Tennessee or Georgia fans tailgating together. That just doesn’t happen. Here, again, there’s a collegiality that you see them tailgating together. It’s almost a shared experience, but also the roots are generationally deep. I’ve never seen anything like it in my life. And I’ve talked to Mike Bobinski about it too. We’ve just never seen it. To have not only a sibling, but your mom and your grandmother and father, and your aunts and uncles, and everybody’s involved in Purdue, it is really something special. And again, it’s something that I so much love and appreciate and cherish. 

Kate Young: 

It’s nice to hear that from someone who’s had so many different experiences with so many different colleges show and tell us how special Purdue is. Well, Jeanne, we can’t thank you enough. It was such a pleasure. It was so fun learning more about you and your journey. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Thank you so much for having me. If anybody’s interested in the program and willing to do the work, we have a place for ’em. 

Kate Young: 

And we’ll link some things in our show notes for easy access for our listeners. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Great. Thank you so much. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you. 

Jeanne Boyd: 

Boiler up. 

Kate Young: 

We can’t thank Jeanne enough for joining us on This is Purdue. She is so delightful and genuine, and we’re proud to have her as part of our Boilermaker community. You can watch more videos with Jeanne, including some of her thoughts on why Purdue basketball is so unique and her time serving as her college mascot, on our podcast YouTube channel, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

Time flies when you’re having fun, and this marks our last episode of our Spring 2025 season already. But we’ll be back in August for our Fall 2025 season, and we have so much more in store for you all. And don’t forget, we’ll have bonus content releasing on our YouTube channel all summer. Be sure to subscribe over there. Plus, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don’t miss out on our kickoff to the fall season, which may include a certain athletics guest I’m sure all of our Boilermaker fans are curious to learn more about. We’ll talk to you in August. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Ted Schellenberger in collaboration with John Garcia, Thad Boone, and Zach Mogensen. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube Promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production assistant is Dalani Young. 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

And as always, Boiler up. 

Alex Turner: 

This is Alex Turner and you’re listening to This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Alex Turner: 

Coming into work every morning, I take it for granted sometimes, but it’s like the historic speedway right there and all of the history. My family’s always been kind of in the Midwest area. I found an old notebook from my great-grandfather that he drew the 1930s of IndyCars going around the track and I never met him, but maybe it’s just in our DNA here. 

Kate Young: 

It’s that time of year again, Boilermakers. For the past three years, during the month of May, our This is Purdue podcast team has featured all different types of Purdue storytelling that ties into the iconic Indianapolis 500. From IndyCar race engineers on the grid to those leading the behind the scenes detail at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to execute the largest single day sporting event in the world. In this episode of This is Purdue, we’re talking to Alex Turner, Design Engineer at Dallara and proud Purdue Motorsports Engineering alum. 

Last May, Dallara, a globally recognized motorsports manufacturer and Purdue University formally partnered together to house Purdue’s Motorsports program at Dallara’s U.S. headquarters in Speedway, Indiana. Just steps from the iconic Indianapolis Motor Speedway, this facility will house space for classrooms, hands-on training, and diagnostic testing for Boilermaker students, further cementing the prestige of the only accredited motorsports engineering undergraduate program in the country. 

Alex was part of this prestigious program which led him to interning for Dallara and kickstarting his full-time career there in 2023. We’ll dig into how Purdue’s Motorsports Engineering program teed him up for success in the professional racing world, including how Chris Finch, Program Director of the Motorsports Engineering program at Purdue University in Indianapolis helps to prepare Boilermaker students for these hands-on experiential learning opportunities in racing. Plus, Alex discusses how curiosity and collaboration play a huge role in his career as a design engineer and shares some of his family ties to IndyCar and favorite race day memories. 

By the way, we shot this interview with Alex right inside Dallara’s incredible showroom in downtown Speedway. You can watch the video interview on our podcast YouTube channel if you want the full visuals, IndyCars and all. So drivers, start your engines. Let’s get to it. 

Alex, thank you for joining us on This is Purdue. We’re excited to feature you. We’re at Dallara, you’re a Dallara design engineer. You’re also a Boilermaker, so we’re going to go through all those fun journeys right before the 109th running of the Indy 500. 

Alex Turner: 

Thank you for having me. 

Kate Young: 

Of course. Okay, so we’ll dive right in. Dallara and Purdue’s Motorsports Engineering program formally partnered together last May. You did your schooling at Purdue in Indianapolis. Why is it an exciting opportunity for students and what do you think they’ll learn and benefit from this partnership 

Alex Turner: 

For students, I think it’s a great opportunity to literally get a foot in the door here at Dallara and before this was announced, we already had so many Purdue graduates and interns from Purdue Indianapolis or Purdue Lafayette. It’s just a great opportunity to come here and see where it’s actually happening and be at the center of IndyCar. 

Kate Young: 

Yeah, we’re steps from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. The Purdue Motorsports Engineering programs going in right here at Dallara too. You were saying before this there’s about 20 other Boilermakers that you work with? 

Alex Turner: 

Yeah, most of our design office, I think five or six out of the nine of us are all from recent Purdue graduates in the last four years or so. We have two current Purdue Indianapolis interns, another is joining us in May. So it’s exciting and it’s a great feeder program, the Motorsports program. Chris Finch there does a really good job of preparing students so they’re ready to go once they graduate. 

Kate Young: 

What do you think this partnership means for the future of Dallara and motorsports engineering to have all these Boilermakers together working on the same team? 

Alex Turner: 

For Dallara, it’s great because I think it gives students even more hands-on experience, a good amount of technical experience here in the building, working in our shop and right next to our trailers where all the engineers are working day in and day out. As a student, to me, that would be super exciting to be able to do that. I wish I could have done that when I was in the program. And from Dallara’s side, it’s just great to have that when students are finished with the program that they’ve already had that little bit of experience and they’re not starting completely fresh and green. So it’s a good opportunity for everyone. 

Kate Young: 

We’ll get into the day-to-day of your job soon, but first I want to hear what was your entry into the motorsports world? Have you always been really passionate about racing? 

Alex Turner: 

Yeah, so for me, I went to my first IndyCar race, it was at Kentucky back in probably 2007. I was seven or eight years old at the time, and I thought it was pretty cool, but I didn’t really catch on and then I went to my first 500 in 2011 with a family friend and that’s when it really caught onto me. I didn’t think I realized at the time that it could actually become a career. I was just like, I was into cars, so it became a hobby of mine and then later on, especially once I found out about Purdue Indianapolis Motorsports program, like wow, this could actually be a career. 

Kate Young: 

I asked Alex what led him to Purdue and if he had always been interested in pursuing engineering as a career. 

Alex Turner: 

As far as I can remember, I’ve always been into some sort of engineering. When I was really young, before I really got into racing and the automotive side, I was fascinated, I still am with space travel and with aerospace engineering and aeronautics. I was just drawn to Purdue at that age just because of all the astronauts, Neil Armstrong, Gene Cernan, Gus Grissom, they all went to Purdue, so that’s kind of where I wanted to end up before I was even in motorsports. 

Kate Young: 

So you’ve always loved Purdue is what you’re telling us? 

Alex Turner: 

Pretty much, yeah. 

Kate Young: 

What were some of your favorite things about being a Purdue Motorsports Engineering student? 

Alex Turner: 

When I did my campus tour, when I was getting close to graduating high school, one of the things that drew me to the program at Purdue Indianapolis specifically was just the amount of hands-on courses that they have and the practicum classes where you spend a semester once or twice where you get a project, you’re designing something and then you actually go into the shop and you have to make it and make it a reality. To me, that was incredible to be able to do that. So the theory side of it is important, the calculus, the physics, that stuff is super important obviously and foundational. But to me, for students, the most exciting part was just the hands-on stuff and you actually learn how to be a motorsports engineer. 

Kate Young: 

I know that’s important and unique about Purdue Indianapolis. What about some of your professors, your courses, how did they tee you up for success in your role at Dallara today? 

Alex Turner: 

Another thing for the program is that Chris Finch, they have a board of people that are involved every day in the motorsports industry, different teams here at Dallara. So they have a really good finger on the pulse of what teams need, what Dallara needs, what other manufacturers need from students coming out of the program. So the courses are geared directly towards that. Whether you want to become on the race engineering path or the design path or whatever your career goal is, there’s always courses that are very relevant to the industry at the time. 

Kate Young: 

So you’ve had internships at both Dallara and IndyCar. How did you pursue those opportunities? Tell us a little bit about those internships. 

Alex Turner: 

The IndyCar one was directly linked with the Purdue Indianapolis program, so they always would select after your first year a couple of students to come and do that, and you’d work at the track, you’re doing technical inspection, you were doing safety reporting, so when there was a big accident, you were taking pictures of the accident and analyzing it with the engineers. Ironically, a lot of the people that I work with now at Dallara that I got to meet back then, I didn’t know that’s where it would lead to, but it was foundational from that standpoint. And then here at Dallara, I really wanted to become a design engineer and for IndyCar, this is basically the place to do it. So I kind of just kept applying, kept applying, didn’t get hired the first couple times, but I just kept at it and they finally let me in the door. 

Kate Young: 

That persistence paid off, right? 

Alex Turner: 

Very luckily.Got to intern here for a couple of years before graduating. 

Kate Young: 

So what brought you here full time? 

Alex Turner: 

I think that’s kind of what they try to do with their interns. They want to bring people in and if you do a decent job, they want to help you grow. You’re not expected to be perfect out of the gates, but they look for someone that just wants to grow and wants to learn and does well in the Dallara culture. It’s a lot easier to hire someone like that than just fresh out of college because they already have along with me and the other kids that have been hired out of the program, already know how the company works, the systems, you know all the people. So it’s a matter of just that’s kind of a running start in a way. 

Kate Young: 

Alex shares some of the key takeaways he learned through both his IndyCar and Dallara internships that helped with the transition from graduation to his professional motorsports career. Plus, he dives into a day in the life of a design engineer. 

Alex Turner: 

I think for me, it really solidified that I wanted to be in the motorsports industry. I think with anyone, you’re kind of your first year in college, it’s really tough and you’re trying to adjust everything. You’re starting to doubt yourself and you’re like, is this really what I want to do? Can I even be successful in this? And the first internship at IndyCar and then coming here to Dallara just solidified them like, yes, this is absolutely what I want to do. It motivated me to work harder in my classes and finish on time because I just really wanted to get out into the real world and start working because I found it was incredibly engaging to me. 

Kate Young: 

Walk us through what’s a typical day in your life as a design engineer? 

Alex Turner: 

One of the things about Dallara for me, it feels like most days aren’t the same. So it’s different every day. You never know what you’re going to get. So when I come in, initially it’s first going through if there’s any issues in our quality department, we’ll inspect the part. If they have a question about maybe a defect or something that’s not quite matching a drawing, they’ll grab one of the designers on the part. So that’s kind how I start the day. Then you get your coffee and then you start working towards your whatever project you’re on at the time. We usually have longer term projects that we’re on for a month or a couple of months. Sometimes there’s meetings. If it’s a race weekend coming up, you’re gearing up for that, getting all your stuff together, all your documents, your reports. I always look back at the last year and the year before and see what was problem areas at this event or this track last year or the year before historically, and that’s always helpful to get you in the right mindset for the upcoming weekend. 

Kate Young: 

Curiosity is one of Dallara’s core values. How do you use that in your approach to your engineering when you show up to work every day? 

Alex Turner: 

For all of us, I think one of the things that Dallara does well is I think in the design office we have a really good strong company culture where we really try, sometimes you can’t avoid it completely, but we try to not let our egos get in the way. So whenever we’re working on a project, it’s very much, even if it’s kind of an individual task, it’s always a group involvement. So once a day or a couple of times a week, we’ll all come together and be like, “Hey, this is what I’m working on. This is what I’m thinking. What do you guys think about this? Do you think this will work? Or something else?” 

Kate Young: 

Really collaborative. 

Alex Turner: 

Yeah, it’s very collaborative and sometimes someone will say something like, “Well, I didn’t think about that. That’s a really good idea. I should do that.” 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Alex Turner: 

In that way it’s kind of humbleness and not letting your ego get in the way of a good design. 

Kate Young: 

Do you think part of your education at Purdue also helped with that curiosity, that collaboration? 

Alex Turner: 

Yeah, I love group projects. And never assuming that you have all the answers. There’s always a better way to do something most likely and always being open to finding new ways or a better way to do whatever you’re working on. 

Kate Young: 

Dallara has an incredible legacy in motorsports. It’s the largest multinational Italian race car manufacturer with a rich history in IndyCar, Formula One and other series. So what does it mean to Alex to work for a brand with such heritage in the sport? 

Alex Turner: 

It’s really incredible, honestly. Obviously Giampaolo has been incredibly successful in everything that he’s done and built this amazing company, and Dallara was extremely successful early on in IndyCar winning their first 500 in ’98 with Eddie Cheever. I believe the first Dallara chassis ran in 1997, and then like I said, we won our first Indy 500 in 1998. I say we, it was before I was born. It’s hard to say we there. But Dallara just continued to dominate through the early and mid-2000s, and then in 2012 when the current chassis was developed, Dallara became the sole supplier of the IndyCar Series. 

It feels like a big responsibility to have the Dallara name on my shirt because I grew up watching IndyCar and watching all kinds of racing where Dallara, like you said, is heavily involved. Going from an outsider’s perspective to being in the core group now, it’s been an interesting transition I would say. It’s hard to wake up sometimes and realize that that’s what your job is. That legacy just, it still runs deep in the company. I think it’s a very competitive environment. One of our company models as well is Pursuit of Excellence that runs deep here and we really try to do our best to uphold that. Again, not let egos or other things get in the way of that. The most important thing is design the best race car we can. 

Kate Young: 

What’s an unexpected element of being a Dallara engineer? Is there anything that maybe our big racing fans that would surprise them? 

Alex Turner: 

It’s a lot of work, long hours. The teams, obviously they have a ton of work and long hours as well, but not everyone’s always happy with you. As an engineer, I found that out pretty quickly. Now, whether it’s a design that didn’t work as you expected it to or something that breaks, in the motorsports industry, especially when you’re at the racetrack, it can get very passionate. So there’s a lot of emotions running high sometimes, so that kind of surprised me, but it’s all part of the job and it’s part of the fun, and you just got to keep pushing and do the best you can. 

Kate Young: 

How have you worked through that? 

Alex Turner: 

You have to have a thick skin. Some of the older guys that work here have been around a long time. Sometimes they’ll just try to build your character a little bit. It’s good because that’s what you need and you need to not take things personally when someone criticizes you or criticizes a design that you did. Again, just not letting your ego get in the way and say, “Yeah, I didn’t do a good job here and this can be better, so we’re going to do a better job next time.” 

Kate Young: 

Alex further explains the role of the Dallara chassis, which is essentially the backbone of each IndyCar that supports and holds all other components in place. 

Alex Turner: 

Safety is incredibly important. We take it very seriously that we don’t want drivers becoming hurt, or worse, in our cars. That’s something that’s very important to Giampaolo and to all of us. And then just every aspect of the car from what the driver interfaces with, from how the car handles, the consistency of the car, the balance, that’s all incredibly important. From the mechanics side, how easy the car is to work on, to assemble things, for maintenance, all that is incredibly important. So the chassis is just the centerpiece in all of that. It’s where the gearbox comes together, the engine comes together. It’s, I don’t want to say the most important part of the car, but it’s definitely the central backbone of the car where everything relates to the chassis. 

Kate Young: 

Dallara has a unique race simulator at their U.S. headquarters in Speedway. Alex shares more about this simulator and how engineers and race teams benefit from it. 

Alex Turner: 

So from the design engineering side, it’s not really our department, but we do have simulations engineers, people that are more kind of on the race engineering path and they work directly with the teams and with the drivers when they come in for a sim session. And normally what would happen is the team will come in, they’ll bring their own data. We say, “Hey, here’s our track model, here’s our tire model,” we’ve developed for like sports cars, for example. They will do a pre and post-event session working with the teams. IndyCar teams occasionally will use it for the Indy NXT side, the development series, it’s more for driver development. It’s time where a driver can purchase some time and they just get seat time. So we’ll say you get eight hours in the day for just practice. As a street circuit, you don’t get a lot of testing or a lot of seat time. 

So it’s a really good way for drivers to learn the tracks, learn the cars. We continue to develop it with the series. Especially for the IndyCar and sports car side, they’re doing setup recommendations. Teams will bring, they’ll usually start with their setup from last year and they’ll say, “Hey, here’s what we struggled with last year. What if we tried changes A, B and C?” And we’ll put those in the sim and see how the drivers like it. If they like it, they’ll move on with that and they’ll keep going in that direction. 

Kate Young: 

You said you’re a racing fan. You grew up a racing fan. What’s a Indy 500 memory that really sticks in your mind that’s really important to you? 

Alex Turner: 

There’s so many because I feel like… Our family always went to the 500 for most of my life. The best one probably it was honestly last year when being on the grid, my sister, she’s in the Purdue pharmacy program and she’s also in the All-American Marching Band. So she got to play with Jim Cornelison with Back Home Again in Indiana. So we were both on the grid together last year. Even though it rained, that was kind of delayed, but that was incredible to share that with her and have two members of our family on the grid. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, that is so special. Wow. 

Alex Turner: 

For me, as an engineer, it’s super important to be engaged with the final product that’s on the track. It’s one thing when you sit at your desk and you design something in CAD and it looks great. You think it’s the best thing ever, and that you think you’re super smart and then it goes on track and it breaks immediately. So to me, that’s really important. That’s honestly where I’ve learned the most. It’s just being at the track and seeing how the mechanics deal with the cars, how the drivers relate to the cars. It’s incredibly important. 

Kate Young: 

Is there a specific memory or moment that you remember that didn’t go as planned and you had to pivot? 

Alex Turner: 

There’s always something that comes up that always surprises you. Sometimes it’s things where you think, “Hey, I think this is not great. Maybe this could be an issue.” That never becomes a problem, and then it’s the one thing you never thought about that breaks, that’s super simple. So it’s just stuff like that all the time. It’s just always surprising, I guess. 

Kate Young: 

What are you looking forward to for this year’s Indy 500? 

Alex Turner: 

So we have the new hybrid system, which is exciting the first time at the Speedway with that. 

Kate Young: 

Tell us about that. 

Alex Turner: 

I think it’s going to be interesting. The weight’s gone up a little bit. The balance of the car is going to change. It’s going to be a little bit more power for qualifying, which is exciting. It was a big challenge last year to kind of package all of that and get that to work properly. So it’ll be really exciting to see that this month I think 

Kate Young: 

Being so close to the IMS, being in downtown Speedway, what does it mean to the Dallara team to be so involved with the iconic Indy 500 every year? 

Alex Turner: 

The location is perfect, obviously. During the month of May, we’re constantly running back and forth. They’re delivering parts or sending people over if there’s something. It’s nice to be just geographically close to the Speedway and then coming into work every morning, I take it for granted sometimes, but it’s like the historic Speedway right there and all of the history. My family’s always been kind of in the Midwest area. I found an old notebook from my great-grandfather that he drew the 1930s of IndyCars going around the track. 

Kate Young: 

Oh my gosh. 

Alex Turner: 

And I never met him, but maybe it’s just in our DNA here. 

Kate Young: 

That is so cool. What a cool story. What do you think Dallara’s broader impact in the world of motorsports is beyond just the Indy 500? 

Alex Turner: 

We have cars in Formula One. We have five or six cars that compete in Le Mans every year. It’s 24 hours to Le Mans. We have the IMSE SportsCar Series here in the U.S. We do F2, F3 over in Europe. We do Japanese Super Formula. So we have almost every continent, every weekend there’s some Dallara car racing. It’s almost like this global empire in a way, I guess. 

Kate Young: 

It is. Have you made the trip to Italy yet? 

Alex Turner: 

Yeah, a few times. 

Kate Young: 

You have? 

Alex Turner: 

Yeah, it’s an incredible facility. We have an incredible facility here as well, but over there we have about 60 employees here in the U.S. Italy has the Wind Tunnel, they have their own simulator, almost identical to the one we have. They have about 800 employees over there, so that’s still where most of the company is, and we’re on the phone with them every day on either video conference calls or chatting back and forth with them. So yeah, it’s an incredible, incredible experience over there. 

Kate Young: 

What advice would you have for students who are currently in the Motorsports Engineering program or hope to be one day? 

Alex Turner: 

I would take advantage of all the extracurricular activities that you can, like getting hands-on experience. Obviously internships when they become available, because that’s, I think, where you learn an incredible amount. Always take up opportunities when they come up. Just keep working incredibly hard. It’s really easy to get disheartened whenever classes get tough, they will and they do, but just keep pushing through it. It’s hard. Everyone goes through it. So we’ve all just had to survive and it does get better. It does get better. 

So I have a funny story about this. When we were going around to, I was in high school and we were looking at with my parents, some different colleges and everything. My dad really wanted me to check out the Purdue Indianapolis program. He’s like, “You don’t understand. They have this really cool program with former motorsports engineers and they have all these connections with race teams.” I’m like, “No, I don’t really want to. I want to go to the bigger campus.” I didn’t really want to go. I finally went. It was the most incredible thing ever and after that day, I didn’t want to go anywhere else but Purdue Indy. So I would probably tell myself to shut up and just listen in that scenario. 

Kate Young: 

Follow your instincts there. 

Alex Turner: 

My parents were right on that one. I was wrong. It turned out okay. 

Kate Young: 

They must be so proud to have two kids on the track at the Indy 500. That’s awesome. 

Alex Turner: 

Very lucky. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, finally, in case you weren’t aware of our podcast streak for predicting the winners of the Indy 500, This is Purdue has interviewed multiple Purdue IndyCar engineers who have gone on to win the Indianapolis 500 with their respective teams and drivers. 

In 2022, Purdue alumna Angela Ashmore made history as the first woman to win the Indianapolis 500 as a member of the winning cars crew with IndyCar Driver, Marcus Ericsson. And in 2023, we interviewed two team Penske IndyCar engineers, also Purdue alums, Matt Kuebel and Mike Koenig. They worked on all three team Penske IndyCar entries that raced in the 2023 Indianapolis 500, including Josef Newgarden, who won the 107th running of the Indy 500 that year. And then Joseph won it again in 2024. It just wouldn’t be our annual Indy 500 celebration episode without a few predictions. So I had to clue Alex in on the fun. 

Wait, I have to tell you a funny story. So every year that we do this interview, yours is excluded because you’re not part of a true team, of course, you’re part of Dallara. So the one year we interviewed an engineer at CGR and that driver won the Indy 500. The next year we interviewed Team Penske engineers and that driver won the 500. So we have a track record for predicting the Indy 500 winners. So we have to hear who your prediction is, if you’re allowed to say. 

Alex Turner: 

I think it’s going to be a Dallara car. I think we got a shot this year to do it. So you’ll be able to keep up your streak, which is good. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a biased opinion, but I like being able to keep up my streak. Well, Alex, did I miss anything? Is there anything else you want to tell our listeners? 

Alex Turner: 

I don’t think so. Thank you very much. Appreciate your time. 

Kate Young: 

It was great being here at the Dallara U.S. headquarters, and thank you for joining us. 

Alex Turner: 

Thank you very much. 

MUSIC: 

How I long for my Indiana home. 

Drivers, start your engines. 

Kate Young: 

This year’s 109th running of the Indianapolis 500 presented by Gainbridge is on Sunday, May 25th. We can’t thank Alex enough for joining us on This is Purdue, and a special thanks to Dallara for hosting our team for this incredible episode. You can watch more behind the scenes videos with Alex. We challenged him to draw an IndyCar by memory. And spoiler alert, he did a fantastic job. Don’t miss this video and more. Head over to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@ThisisPurdue. And be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Ted Schellenberger, Jon Garcia, Thad Boone, and Zach Mogensen. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team Project Manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. Our creative production assistant is Dalani Young. And our This is Purdue intern is Caroline Keim. 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@ThisisPurdue. And as always, boiler up. 

Cara Putman: 

This is Cara Putman, and you are listening to, This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to, This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking, who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Cara Putman: 

I think that one of the best things that women and really, any student can do when it comes to being job ready is, figure out what your superpower is, because that will help you become more confident as you step out into the workplace. When you invest in that, you really get the opportunity to dig deep and go, this is what I bring to any team, to any employer that nobody else does. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to Cara Putman, Director of the Mitch Daniels School of Business’ Brock-Wilson Center for Women in Business, Clinical Associate Professor at Purdue, and bestselling author. Cara is dynamic, she’s enthusiastic, she’s passionate. Our entire team was captivated by her stories, and I know we all learned a thing or two from her practical advice. And it was no surprise that just recently she earned a Charles B. Murphy Award, Purdue’s highest undergraduate teaching honor. Cara has called Purdue home for over 20 years, and has dedicated her life to being an educator and mentor to thousands of students over the years. 

In this episode, you’ll hear more from Cara about why Purdue is a supportive place to learn, grow, and discover your purpose, how the Brock-Wilson Center for Women in Business creates empowered and confident leaders, and what she believes is the biggest ethics issue facing the business world today. Plus, she shares her secrets to finding purpose, success, and belonging, and advice for discovering your superpower in the workplace. And finally, we’ll dive into Cara’s experience as an accomplished author of more than 40 books and how her writing journey helps further energize her work at Purdue. I myself just had the pleasure of reading one of her legal thrillers and I could not put it down. All right, let’s get to it, here’s my conversation with Cara. 

Cara, thank you so much for joining us on This is Purdue, the official university podcast. You’re our second guest in our new studio, we’re so excited to have you. 

Cara Putman: 

It is beautiful and I am delighted to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me. 

Kate Young: 

Of course. So you’re no stranger to podcasting? 

Cara Putman: 

Nope. 

Kate Young: 

You’re an author, you have your own podcast called Book Talk. 

Cara Putman: 

I do. 

Kate Young: 

I’m excited to talk to a fellow podcaster today. 

Cara Putman: 

Well, and it’s kind fun to be on this side of the microphone, although it’s also a little weird to be the one getting the questions instead of giving the questions. 

Kate Young: 

Sure. Well, we hope it’s a good experience for you. 

Cara Putman: 

So far it’s been great. 

Kate Young: 

So you’ve helped champion the Brock-Wilson Center for Women in Business, part of the Daniels School of Business. We are just really excited to dig into everything that you’re doing for women and Boilermakers in business, but let’s kick things off at the beginning. You had an interesting childhood and schooling experience growing up. You finished high school at age 16, you graduated from college at age 20, and you completed your law degree at 27. So, tell us a little bit of background about your schooling experiences growing up. 

Cara Putman: 

I was a first generation homeschooler, so that’s how I graduated from high school at 16, because I was really one of the first homeschoolers in Nebraska, which is where I’m from. And so as soon as it became legal in Nebraska, my parents were some of the first to sign up and go, “Hey, this sounds like a great way to get an education.” So, we started when I was in fifth grade and I was homeschooled from fifth to 10th grade, and then I kind of talked my way into college. 

I had read an article in Homeschool Legal Defense Magazine or something like that, about young man somewhere who went to Harvard at 16. And being the person I am, I was like, well, if he can go to college at 16, I should be able to go to college at 16. And God bless my parents, they went, “Okay. Well, maybe,” but they didn’t shut it down. They were like, “Well, we’ll see if Cara is still serious about that when she gets to 16.” And essentially the moment I turned 16, I went, “Okay, are we going to go sign me up for college?” And they were like, “I don’t even know how we do this.” 

But we had a community college in our town. I’m from North Platte Nebraska, which for those of you who’ve never heard of it, it’s halfway between Omaha and Denver. So, I like to say it’s in the middle of everything and absolutely close to nothing, it’s about four hours from each of those. So we had a public school, a Catholic high school, and the community college. And so the community college really became a fantastic launching pad for me, I think of it as my high school. And so I started at 16 and graduated with my associate’s degree when all of my friends were graduating with their high school diploma. 

Kate Young: 

So then what brought you into law school? 

Cara Putman: 

So it was actually the fact that I had been homeschooled, and I very vividly remember, I was 12. The teachers were trying to get the law reversed to make it illegal to homeschool. And so my mom dragged us along with a lot of other homeschool families, we’re down at the unicameral, Nebraska has a one-house legislature. And so we were down there for a day and I’ll never forget because it was a really long, really boring day, but we were sitting there for an entire day watching the legislative process in the committee room. All these people are getting up and they’re talking about why homeschooling is important and why it’s a necessary educational alternative for families, and the state senators just really aren’t engaged. 

And then the attorney from homeschool legal defense sat down and it was almost night and day. All the senators sat up and they all started really paying attention. And my 12-year-old brain went, “I want my words to matter. And if it takes a law degree for my words to matter, then I think that might be what I need to get.” And that’s that pivotal moment where I started thinking about, maybe law is what I need. And I also think it’s when I started really falling in love with politics. My parents were really engaged with party politics in Nebraska, so we were always going door to door in campaign seasons. 

When I was at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, I paged at the unicameral, I interned for a state senator. So I mean, I was majoring in political science, so I was really engaged in that whole process, which really leads to law school as well. But it was kind of that one-two of watching the process and then watching the impact that an attorney had versus everybody else and I’m like, it really shouldn’t have made a difference. But for some reason that JD at the end of their name really made a difference to those state senators and I went, “I want that.” 

Kate Young: 

That’s incredible at age 12. 

Cara Putman: 

It’s like my path did a little bit of tacking side to side, but I never really deviated from, I think I want to go to law school. 

Kate Young: 

So, let’s talk through your Boilermaker journey. How did you get to Purdue, how did you join us here? 

Cara Putman: 

Funny story, I didn’t even know Purdue was a thing. There are a lot of people who will be on either coast, they’ll be all over the world. My husband and I travel, and he’s always in his Purdue gear and it doesn’t matter what airport we’re in, you’ll always hear, “Boiler up, hammer down, boiler up, hammer down.” And so, there’s such an amazing community of Boilermakers, but at the time I was at Nebraska as an undergrad, we were not in the same athletic conference like we are now. And so, I was just not really familiar with Purdue. But then I married a Boilermaker and very quickly became familiar with Purdue. And he followed me to DC where after graduation, we both worked in the DC area for a while in the nonprofit world. And I went to law school while working, clerked for a federal judge. I was headed to the Department of Justice to work in their honors program and I was really excited, it was like my dream job at the time. 

And then my husband came home from work one day and he said, “I just saw this listing in the Chronicle of Higher Education for a job at Purdue for the Jischke,” what we came to find out was the Jischke Capital Campaign, and it was for the College of Ag, which is his alma mater. And I was like, “I think you’ve got to apply,” and my HR brain went, “And they would be absolutely insane not to hire you,” And that was in April. And I really started packing then, even though I knew I was headed to the Department of Justice for my dream job. 

And it was August when Purdue finally got through all the hoops. And so the week I was supposed to start my dream job, we were moving to West Lafayette, a town I’d never really been to. I’d been on campus one time, I knew there was a Cracker Barrel and there was Purdue, and that was it. So I told him, I was like, “I can do anything for two years, as long as there’s a Walmart.” And that was why we came here, because I knew Indy was an hour away, Chicago was two hours away, and that was 23 years ago. So we got here and obviously fell in love with the community, and Purdue has been really good to us. 

Kate Young: 

And here you are today. 

Cara Putman: 

And here we are today. 

Kate Young: 

Cara digs more into both the Daniels School of Business and the Brock-Wilson Center’s efforts on recruiting young women, and what led to her passion for mentoring and leading women who are pursuing business careers. 

Cara Putman: 

It’s something that’s really fun to think about, because when I look back on my life, I think about the moment I stepped onto the campus at Mid-Plains Community College, as the 16-year-old who really didn’t know hardly anything. I mean, I’d been homeschooled for six years and I think about Mrs. McGann, who took me under her wing and gave me the opportunity to be the student body president and to do some different things like that. I think about … Mr. Babcock who were on the Truman Selection Committee at Mid-Plains Community College, which then I was a finalist, that then got me on track to at the university become a Truman Scholar, which then actually allowed me to go to grad school. Because this is first gen, I didn’t know how I was going to pay for all of these things. 

And so every time I look back, there have been people who have poured into me and have mentored me because I didn’t have this wealth of family experience. We were entrepreneurs. My parents were very much at the time, I was navigating this whole college experience, they were helpful as much as they knew to be helpful, but they were also really focused on building our businesses. And also telling me, “Cara, you’ve got three siblings and so we don’t know how much we can help you pay for college because you’ve got three siblings coming behind you.” And so it was all these different people at Mid-Plains. 

At the University of Nebraska Lincoln, there was one of my professors, the department head that I think every time he had office hours, I was in his office. Sometimes I don’t even know what we talked about. I mean, I look back now and I’m like, I am surprised he didn’t see me coming and slam the door, because he had to be like, “Oh my gosh, here comes Cara again.” And yet at the same time, if he hadn’t done that, I don’t know that I would’ve actually gotten into grad school because it was him and then the executive secretary of the Truman Foundation, who both gave me the advice of, “You are graduating at barely 20,” my birthday’s the end of March and I graduated at the beginning of May. 

So I mean, I was a baby 20-year-old and they’re like, “You’re going to go to grad school. You have this scholarship, but let’s take a couple years and figure out what you really want to do.” Because I got the Truman on, I’m going to get a PhD in international relations. The Iron Curtain had just fallen and I was like, I want to be part of figuring out what’s going to happen in this power vacuum in Europe and all of this. What’s going to happen now and what are we going to do? And I look at the world today and I’m like, we still got to figure out what’s going to happen in this power vacuum and everything that’s going on. And they were like, “Maybe that’s what you’ll do, or maybe you’ll go to law school.” And I had another professor telling me, “You should really get an MBA in HR,” and none of them were wrong. I ended up with an MBA and I ended up with a law degree, but that advice to go work for a few years and figure out what you really want to do. 

So I think those experiences, coming back to your question, is what really birthed this passion for mentoring today’s students. And I think it’s why I am so passionate about Purdue and what we do, because we are a land-grant university. We are all about fundamentally, if we ever lose that part of our DNA, that we are a land-grant, we should be the place for first generation students, because there are still a lot of first generation students out there. We should never lose sight of the fact that there are students who they come here, and one of the things I tell students every time I see them on tours, I’m like, “You are getting a lot of pressure today to know exactly what you’re going to do and you’re 18 years old,” some of them are 17, “And you’re going to change your mind six times.” 

And I always tell mom and dad, “Cover your ears, but actually don’t, because it’s okay.” Because our advisor to student ratio, at least at Daniels, is one to 250. The national standard is one to 750. We are scaffolded to help students and to provide the tools that they need to be successful. So you don’t have to panic when your student calls you, says, “Mom, dad, guess what? I want to change my major.” You should be able to go, “It’s okay. Purdue is going to help you through that process.” And there’s people like me, there’s people like their advisors, we’re here to help. That’s what gives us our joy. All of that I think comes together to kind of fuel me to be like, how can we create more of those structures and systems and safe spaces and communities of belonging, so that every student at Purdue can absolutely thrive? 

Kate Young: 

And how do you guys within Daniels School of Business recruit the types of people that you want to see come through the school? Like you said, first generation, women, how do you guys do that? 

Cara Putman: 

It really is challenging in higher education right now, because one of the just realities of demographics right now is what we’re calling the demographic cliff. Because in general in higher education, there’s this cliff of there aren’t as many 18-year-olds today as there were five years ago or 10 years ago, and there’s going to be even fewer starting, I think it’s 2025. Oh, that’s this year, oops. And so it’s like there’s just this in general, smaller pool of 18-year-olds. And then in Indiana, we have this added demographic challenge that I really want to crack, because I’m like, don’t tell me no because if you tell me no, I’m like, we can solve it, there’s a way to fix it. But in Indiana, there’s still a lot of students who don’t think they need to go to college, period. And especially with men, which I think is just fascinating. And I think when you talk to different people, they’ll say it’s because of unions, it’s because of agriculture, but those demographics are shifting in the job market. 

So I think part of what is happening with the semiconductor plants coming and AI and all these different things, we’re doing some really interesting things with the economic development job marketplace that we are going to have a different story to tell high school students, but we’ve got to bridge that divide between high school and college. And so, that’s part of what we’re actually doing at the Brock-Wilson Center and I’m so proud of it because when we go out to recruit, if we are just talking about women in business, it is such a miss. It’s a big part of it, but we are recruiting for Daniels and we are recruiting for the university, because we’re going to the DECA State Conference, we’re going to junior achievement. 

I mean, we’ve got to talk to junior high and middle school students, because the decision that eighth graders are making related to math is going to be the deciding factor on whether or not they get into Purdue. Purdue is an elite university, and so if you are not calculus ready, you will not get into engineering, you will not get into science, and you will not get into Daniels, period, end of story, stop. And so, we have actually got to be talking to students and families in seventh and eighth grade because in eighth grade right now, they’ve already decided what math class they’re going to take their freshman year. But then we also have to talk to them in ninth grade when it gets hard, because their high school advisor is going to tell them, “Oh, it’s okay. Hop off the honors track. No big deal.” It’s actually a huge deal because now you have just hopped off being ready to have an application for college at Purdue, that means you’re going to get accepted. Ninth grade. 

Do you think a 14 and 15-year-old is going to make the hard choice if they don’t have people at home saying, “Grid it out, sweetheart. Grid it out, young man,” because what you’re doing today is going to have a huge impact on what you’re doing tomorrow. And so we have got to be interacting with those students at a really young age. And so that’s part of what we’re doing with the Brock-Wilson Center, but we’re one little tiny unit on campus trying to make an impact and really testing some different spaces where we can go, where other organizations are already pulling together our target market, and then just kind of lend strength to what they’re already doing. 

Kate Young: 

Today’s business world is full of complex ethical challenges. And with all of the headlines in the recent years, Cara knew she had to take charge and prepare her Boilermaker students to navigate these challenges with practical hands-on advice. So in 2024, Cara piloted a core ethics course for Daniels School of Business students. Cara discusses this class and why it’s fundamental for students to be knowledgeable about ethics in the business world. 

Cara Putman: 

Ethics is one of those things that all you have to do is look at the Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, any broadcast of your choice to see that people still struggle to make good choices on a day-to-day basis. Think about if you have kids, what’s one of the things we’re always telling them? “Make good choices.” I tell my son all the time, our youngest, I’m like, “Use your powers for good.” We’re always telling our kids that, but there seems to be a disconnect between when they’re kids to when they become professionals. 

And so about 2018, 2019, I became the principal investigator with a group of faculty, and it’s not all just in Daniels, we’ve got a few from Polytech, that we are studying, how can we more effectively teach ethics at the undergraduate level? The Blake Family Ethics Center is an outgrowth in part of that work. What we are doing in this one credit course is kind of that foundation, but we’ve developed a four-year model that we hope will at the end of it, when students have spent four years with us, when they leave, they will have a toolkit but they will also have practiced, because I think that’s important. And we think the research shows that, that the more interactions you have with ethics, the more times you have to practice ethics, the more times you have to pre-think, what would I do when I am confronted with those tough choices? Not that you will do it perfectly every time, but you will be better prepared to then make that hard choice, because life is filled with choices. 

And the other thing we’re trying to do is remove ethics from being over here. So when we make decisions in a business context, most people will tell you there’s a people decision, there’s a finance decision, there’s a supply chain decision, there’s all these different things, and then ethics is over here in a corner. And it really, it should just be another part of this decision-making process. So we’re trying to help people to see it’s just integrated in instead of being the afterthought. And so that’s really what we are trying to do with this modeling. 

And so we’ve been able to take it, I’ve presented it internationally at conferences, nationally, so we’re trying to get a lot of feedback on it and get thoughts. We’re starting to write it up and put it, disseminate it in different journals and things like that, because another one, I guess my foundational philosophies is, if we’re doing something and we really believe it’s excellent, then we should be opening it up for other people to challenge us on it, but also to disseminate it in a way that other people can replicate it 

Kate Young: 

Can use it. 

Cara Putman: 

Yeah. 

Kate Young: 

What do you think the biggest ethics challenges are right now today in the business world? 

Cara Putman: 

I think it really comes down to being willing to walk away. I’m a big believer in giving people practical tools, and this is going to sound so simple, but one of the things I am constantly telling my students, and they’ll even tell you, practical tips of Putman, is you need a six months emergency fund. So that if you’re asked to do something that’s illegal or unethical, you can walk away, because often people don’t leave even when they know they should because they don’t feel like they can leave. 

And so if we are helping students to pre-think, okay, these are my non-negotiable, so we’re asking first year students in that class to write down, these are my non-negotiable values. And I even tell them, I’m like, “Unless I can see that this value could lead you to jail, I might not agree with you but I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong. Unless I’m like, I think this one could actually lead you to jail, then I might ask you to reconsider it. You can write what you want, I just want you to know your why, because you have to know why it’s something that’s really important to you or it’s not going to actually help you make choices.” I would love in three years to have them rewrite it and see if it changes, see if there’s any movement in it. This is our first year of the longitudinal, so maybe we’ll be able to do that, maybe not, we’ll see. 

But then we’re also giving them other tools, like really quick okay, here are three questions that walk you through three of the big philosophical ideas and giving them lots of things. But I think seriously, one of the most practical is, have a six-month emergency fund. So you can literally walk away. Because often, like WorldCom, two of the people who went to jail knew what they were doing was wrong. They wrote letters of resignation, but they didn’t submit them because they thought they didn’t have a choice. 

Kate Young: 

Because they didn’t have the savings, or at least in their mind, they wanted to keep making money and not walk away from it. 

Cara Putman: 

Because the WorldCom’s headquarters was in a small town, smallish town, 20,000 people in Mississippi, and they were both the primary breadwinner in their family. I don’t want our students to be in that situation. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a great, great idea. What was it, practical tips with Putman? 

Cara Putman: 

Yeah, practical tips with Putman. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a perfect tagline. 

With your law background, plenty of cases, you teach students about plenty of court cases that have affected women specifically in the workplace. Why are you passionate about sharing these cases with your students? 

Cara Putman: 

I think it’s really important for students to understand the context of where we’ve been. And so understanding work cases is one way to do that. 

So another meeting I had was related to study abroad program that I’m taking students on this summer in Prague, and one of the things we were talking about was Czech Republic, Prague, it has been this crossroads of so much of history and so much that has happened that I don’t think our students understand. They don’t understand it was behind the Iron Wall, they don’t understand that the Nazis overtook the country during World War II. So it was helping them to see that, like taking them to a bomb shelter that was in place during the time that it was behind the Iron Curtain actually is not a bad cultural trip, especially in the context of what’s happening in the world today. And so helping students to understand where we’ve come from and where that might help us see where we’re going, or help us avoid certain things, that’s actually a part of what education is. 

And so, one of the things that I do appreciate about teaching at Purdue is the fact that we followed the Chicago principles. So I’m always in the first day or two of class level setting with students, that one of the things that’s absolutely fundamental. You don’t have to agree with me on everything, and in fact, you shouldn’t. I don’t want to create a bunch of mini Cara’s, that would be an absolutely terrifying world. We don’t need that, but we do have to respect each other. We do have to have civility, because I teach law and ethics, you’re not going to agree with me. You’re not. But if we can’t actually have the conversations, the world is a really scary place, because groupthink is actually not a good thing. 

I have to in ethics, I have to talk about confirmation bias. I have to talk about framing bias. I have to talk about overconfidence bias. I have to, I have to. If students aren’t willing to go with me there, the class isn’t going to work and I’m not going to be able to do my job. But that means I have to respect them and they have to actively feel that respect from me, and then they have to respect me back. It’s this really interesting two-way street. And with the ethics class, they’re first year students. And so it’s been really challenging in some ways to be able to real quickly in an eight week class, establish that and build that rapport, and get to the place where I’m like, no, I’m serious about this. I really do want to have these conversations. And if I’m playing devil’s advocate, it doesn’t mean I don’t like you or I’m not agreeing with you, but we have to have this full enriched discussion so that we can actually get into, well, what does this look like? 

And guess what? Not everybody’s going to agree with you in real life, so you have to learn how to handle this. It can be a challenge, but it’s so important in this world today to know how to have those conversations and actually be able to do it and do it well. 

Kate Young: 

And be able to exist with other people who may not have your same beliefs and have that respect still. 

Cara Putman: 

Absolutely, we need that. If I just stay with people who only think like I do, my life is very narrow and I am missing out on the richness and diversity of experience. And if people who don’t think like I do are doing the same thing, there’s so much richness in the middle, but there’s also a lot of danger because we’re not seeing all the opportunities and we’re going to miss a lot of answers to problems because we’re just so entrenched in our spaces. And so we’re not going to solve the most challenging, pressing problems that our world is facing today. 

Kate Young: 

As the Director of the Brock-Wilson Center for Women in Business, Cara has seen expansive growth in the center itself and many of the programs within it, including the Women in Business Learning Community and the Confident Transitions Pathway. She shares more about this growth and why these resources for Boilermaker students are so unique. 

Cara Putman: 

It has just been so exciting because of the transformation that we’re seeing in students’ lives. If it’s just a numbers game, then it’s really, it can be a waste of resources, but when you see the impact it has on students, and numbers is a part of that story. 

So when I stepped into this role in August of 2021, it’s been three and a half years. For example, there’s an ambassador program, so it was called Ambassadors, I haven’t changed the name. There were six students who were ambassadors when I came in. Those are students who want to be part of the Brock-Wilson Center, and they help us with recruiting, but then they also help us create community for the students who are in Daniels and do programming. That program went from 10, well, six to 10, to 35, to 80, and now this year it’s 205. So it’s like this hockey stick. When it went from 10 to 35, it was like, oh, that’s really good. And then it went to 85 and it was like, oh my goodness, that’s great. I mean, more than doubling, and how do you keep that community, that belonging, that we’re all here supporting each other? And then it grew to 205, but that’s basically 15 to 18% of the women at Daniels are ambassadors. 

Kate Young: 

Wow. 

Cara Putman: 

That’s pretty cool. 

Kate Young: 

Yeah. 

Cara Putman: 

And then our learning community is for first year women and they take classes together and they’ve got similar communities and science and technology and engineering. We’ve got a mentoring program. They take classes together, they do professional development. We take them to the career fair so they can get the overwhelm out of the way when they’re not really looking for a job, but then their sophomore year, they know what to expect. We do Friendsgiving and Galentine, so there’s fun activities, we take them to Exploration Acres. So, just all these really cool things so the moment they step onto campus, we are there at the residence hall to meet them so that they have community immediately. It went from 10 to last year, this year we had to beg for more spaces so we could have 40, and we’re begging for more spaces so we can have 50 next year. And we just won Learning Community of the Year and Signature Event of the year. 

Kate Young: 

Wow, congratulations. 

Cara Putman: 

So I was like, yay, we’re doing something right. And so it’s just been fun. I look around, I’m like, okay, what are we doing? What’s already existing? And then how can we, if it’s excellent, how do we scale it? How do we make it more impactful? And if it’s excellent, how do we invite more people to it? Why should people go to Harvard? They should come to Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. 

Cara Putman: 

Mic drop. 

Kate Young: 

That’s incredible. So in the fall of 2024, women made up 36% of the Daniels School of Business class, which is an uptick from 32% in 2022 and 2023. This increase might not seem like a big deal to people outside. 

Cara Putman: 

Big deal, yeah. 

Kate Young: 

Tell us about that. What obstacles do you believe that women still face in business today as well? 

Cara Putman: 

If you don’t live in the recruiting space, you could go, “Oh my gosh, that sounds terrible,” but if you look at the broader landscape, if you do benchmarking against other big 10 schools or business schools in general, it’s actually pretty shocking that that 32 to 36%, it’s kind of the standard. Wharton and maybe one or two other schools, Rutgers actually, has about 50% women, which I still am trying to wrap my mind around it. I think it might be because it’s an urban, more of a commuter type of school, but I haven’t really been able to figure out what the secret sauce is for Rutgers. But Wharton has 50% women at the undergraduate level. And then it really is this 32, 36, every once in a while you’ll get someone at 40%. 

And so my best guess is, when you get women who are good in math and science, what are they told? “Go into engineering. You should be a doctor.” And that’s fabulous if that’s what you want to be, but there are a lot of young women who don’t want to be engineers and they don’t like blood. 

Kate Young: 

They don’t want to be in healthcare. 

Cara Putman: 

Hello? That was me. I’m like, ugh, I went to law school because I don’t want to do blood. And so, part of what we are trying to do at the Brock-Wilson Center is just help people, young women in particular, but really all students, to understand that there are some fabulous opportunities in business if you are really good at math. And if you’re good at math and science, Purdue is the place for you because we’ve got integrated business and engineering. And that is a phenomenal degree for people who are like, “I really like science, but I don’t know that I want to do full on engineering because IBE is first year engineering and then three years of business with some engineering woven in. And we’re looking at other degrees like that where it’s going to be this incredible blend, and that’s something that you get at Purdue that you cannot get at any other school. I mean, we really are the crossroads of technology and business. That is something that we really need to be trumpeting from every rooftop and getting the message out. 

But what happens is when you have 32, 35, 36% women is, especially as you get into higher division courses, it is not unusual for our women students to realize, I am one or two or three in my class. And so what has been happening is we’ve had these clubs start cropping up, women in consulting, women in econ, women in just all these different, women in law. And so really coming around them and saying okay, first off, do you really need a separate club? And then if so, how do we support you so you get that… Because what they’re signaling is, we need community, we need a place where we can belong. And to me, what belonging is, is it’s just, I don’t have to pretend. I can just be myself. I have a place where people are glad to see me and I can just be myself. 

Kate Young: 

You’re full of advice, you’re full of practical tips, as we’ve heard. What is your single biggest piece of advice for women in business when it comes to networking, mentoring, and being kind of job ready after graduation? 

Cara Putman: 

I think that one of the best things that women and really any student can do when it comes to being job ready is, figure out what your superpower is because that will help you become more confident as you step out into the workplace. It’s one of the reasons I created Confident Transitions for our students. And I think when you’re at Purdue, again, you have this low-hanging fruit that’s available to you, because Purdue is already invested in Gallup Strengths, and so you already know what your five superpowers are. The question is, are you going to invest beyond taking that survey, that assessment when you’re onboarding as a first-year student? When you invest in that, you really get the opportunity to dig deep and go, “This is what I bring to any team, to any employer that nobody else does,” and that combination of the top five, when you put it all together, it’s like 33 million to one that anybody else is going to have that same unique combination. 

Second, I’m an activator, achiever, input, maximizer, strategic. So I see possibilities where nobody else does, and I automatically see five ways to make it happen. I’m going to make it happen because I’m an activator and I’m an achiever, and because I’m input and I’m constantly taking in information, when it’s time to do it, I already have the information there and I can connect it and I can get it done. And so, I’m a unicorn in higher education when you put all that together. It’s really great because I can then walk into a room and I can be like, “Okay, here’s where I add value. Here’s where I get joy. And when you put that all together, I’m pretty much a passion explosion,” and it’s really fun. The earlier you can figure that out and start going, “Okay, I’m going to do this and I like this,” and then be ready to experiment and be ready to fail fast, because the faster you fail, the faster you can get onto the next thing. 

And so college is that safe place to fail, because you’re not failing on a $10 million account or $100 million account, you’re failing on an event that yeah, it might be embarrassing, but it’s not the end of the world. You’re not going to lose your job most of the time and if you do, it’s an appointment in a student club, move on. It’s not the end of the world. Find that thing that you do that nobody else does, and be willing to try things because the cost of failure is so low in college and it’s so much lower to do it here. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. Find your superpower. Cara’s advice there had, thinking about what my superpower is, and I hope you all can reflect on yours, because everyone has one. So how has Cara seen all of these robust Purdue resources impact young Boilermakers firsthand? 

Cara Putman: 

Young Boilermakers at Purdue have so much available to them through alumni connections, through our amazing connections with donors who just pour their resources into… Even just thinking about study abroad, there are so many study abroad scholarships. I mean, my one regret from undergrad is I didn’t go. And I think that’s why I’m so passionate about taking students on study abroad, and there are resources to help them do that. And that’s just one example. 

Undergraduate research, there are resources to help students do undergraduate research and so many great opportunities. And so it’s really just helping students make the connections, and sometimes they just don’t know where to go and what those resources are. And sometimes it’s helping faculty make those connections, and that’s fun too, being kind of that… If you’ve ever read Malcolm Gladwell’s Tipping Point, he talks about there’s the early adopters and there’s the connectors, and then I forget what the others are. I am not an early adopter because I am an attorney, I’m risk averse. I want to make sure it works before I jump head in. But then once it does, I’m like, I am all in. 

And I love connecting people. I don’t silo. And so I love when I could be like, “Oh, you want to do that? Well, here are the people you need to connect with.” And being networked across campus or being networked off of campus, so I could be like, you’ve got a great idea and you’ve got a great idea, but you don’t know each other. And so if we can get you together, it’s going to be amazing for our students and for you. And when it works across the river, how much better because now we’re getting off of campus. I get goosebumps, it’s so cool. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. I want to go back because at the beginning of this, I mentioned you’re a very successful author, you’ve written over 40 books. You also have a podcast called Book Talk. So, tell us about the types of books you write. We have some, if you’re watching on YouTube, we have some placed throughout our set here, but I’m really excited to hear more about your writing in your books. 

Cara Putman: 

I am editing book 43 and 44 right now. 

Kate Young: 

Oh my goodness. 

Cara Putman: 

And book 42 comes out in April. So by the time this is out, it will have been in bookstores for a month. But I write primarily books centered around either World War II history, finding those kind of unknown stories and bringing them to light, or tapping into my legal knowledge of writing legal suspense or romantic suspense. 

Kate Young: 

Amazing. So, tell us about this passion for writing. You’ve had such an interesting career path, education path. Where did this passion for writing and becoming an author come from? 

Cara Putman: 

I have had it literally since I was about 13 or 14, and it came from being kind of that hubris of the young. My favorite authors weren’t writing fast enough, and I went, well, if they can’t write faster, I guess I’ll just have to write my own books. And then I started college and got married, but the passion for writing just never went away. 

So when my husband was working on a master’s degree and we had two young kids, so they were going to bed at 8:00 and he was starting to study, I was like, well, I guess now’s a good time to try writing. And I was really fortunate. A lot of people, when they start writing, it’ll be 6, 7, 8, 9 years before they get a contract, and my journey was a year. And then my first book came out and a year later it won a major award, and I’ve been writing two or three books a year ever since. So to have 43, 44 books, and I started writing in 2005. So in 20 years, it’s pretty incredible. I’m very blessed. 

Kate Young: 

How do you think that that helps you, this journey of being an author and enjoying the writing process? I can tell you’re passionate about it, helps you with everything that you do with Purdue? 

Cara Putman: 

I think it’s this interesting balance because when I started writing, I was a lawyer by day and a writer by night, and it was that balance of left brain and right brain. And so with the teaching, it’s still a lot of, I get to do the left brain of, okay, how do I get all these concepts across to students? And then the teaching itself can be the right brain, how do you present it? And then the writing is right brain, creating and all that, and then the editing’s very left brain. And so it was just this, I guess I’m ambidextrous when it comes to, I really like to use both sides of the brain and I miss it when I’m not writing because I’m like, I really just wanted to have one book. I want to be able to say I’d written a book and gotten it published. And now I’m like, okay, so I’ve got this idea for the next series and I’ve got to get it put together so my agent can send it out to publishers. And every time I’m like, do I want to do this again? 

And now of course with the Purdue Book campaign, they’re like, now we want you to write nonfiction. I’m like, do I want to do that? Because it’s very different to do academic writing and the fiction, but it just feeds a different part of me, so I love it. 

Kate Young: 

That’s amazing. So many people dream of writing a book. We were talking before this, some of the girls, and they’re like, “It’s on my bucket list to become a writer.” What advice would you give to young writers or really any writer who wants to get published? 

Cara Putman: 

Yeah, I love teaching at writing conferences and helping people have their writing dreams come to life, because studies out there that say something like 85 or 90% of people say they want to be a writer. And some of the best advice I can give is, number one, you have to be a reader because if you want to write, you have to know what makes a good book. And one of the best ways to do that is just to read voraciously, particularly in the genre you think you want to write. But I also think it’s good to kind of read across because you can pull in techniques that work well from other genres. 

And then the other is, you have to put your butt in a chair and you have to actually write. And so if you write 500 words a day, which is about two double spaced pages, over the course of a year, you’ll get to roughly 100,000 word book. Two pages a day, it’s not that much. Break it up into small chunks. Once you know what you’re doing, it’s about 20 minutes. Take part of your lunch, stop binging a show. I gave up watching TV when I started writing. So there are a lot of TV shows that people will talk about that I have no idea what they’re talking about. I had to give something up to make space for writing. I am catching up on a few shows now. I did watch the first season of Only Murders in the Building, and we’re watching High Potential right now.  

Kate Young: 

I love High Potential! 

Cara Putman: 

I know, it reminds me of Castle. I’m like, I kind of like the energy behind it because you can learn a lot from really good TV shows or all the Marvel movies, I love that. Well, now they’re going downhill, but there’s so much on character development from the Iron Man one through Endgame. There’s so much you can learn about character development and things like that. But even then, my family was like, “Seriously, can’t you just watch a movie?” I’m like, no. I am studying for character and all this kind of stuff, but figure out what you’re going to give up so that you can make space to write two pages, a day. 

Kate Young: 

Stop scrolling on social. 

Cara Putman: 

Yes, exactly. 

Kate Young: 

Stop watching Netflix. 

Cara Putman: 

Instagram. Do you really need Instagram or whatever it is, TikTok? You can find the time. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. So I want to bring us back to Purdue and the Daniels School of Business. What do you envision DSV to look like in five years? 

Cara Putman: 

Well, in five years we will have our new building, and that will be amazing because it’s student facing. The Brock-Wilson Center will be on the fourth floor, very excited about that. We will probably have 4,000 to 4,500 undergraduate students. They will be and continue to be some of the top business students in the country that I will love teaching. And I think what we will see is we will probably have a couple new majors. There will be a class, at least one class on artificial intelligence. That one’s rolling out in the fall. Hopefully we’ll have a law major, we’re working on that. 

What you’ll see is that the faculty and the students will really be engaged on the question of, how does business connect with technology? And I’m really excited to see what we can do with having access to Indy in the new way. I think that there’s opportunities for engagement with all of the great companies in Indianapolis that when it comes to opportunities for students to really get in there and apply what they’re learning in the classroom to real world problems. In a way that, not that we couldn’t do it here, but actually getting to go to the company and see the systems and see the processes, like a living lab. I think that having the Indy campus will allow us to do some things like that in new and fresh ways. 

Kate Young: 

What about the future of the business world in five years, what do you hope to see? 

Cara Putman: 

I would love to see, you’re putting on my ethics hat. I would love to see a world where there aren’t so many scandals, where the business leaders really are thinking about shareholders and employees, and thinking about the long-term impacts of their decisions in a way that balances those interests. You can create shareholder value without having to sacrifice treating people well. 

Kate Young: 

That’s perfect advice. Well, we can’t thank you enough for joining us. 

Cara Putman: 

Yeah, thanks so much. 

Kate Young: 

Is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners? Anything I missed? 

Cara Putman: 

This has been so much fun. Thank you for having me today, and Purdue is just such a great place to be. I’ve been really, really blessed to be here for all these years, and boiler up. 

Kate Young: 

We can’t thank Cara enough for joining us on on This is Purdue. You can watch more behind-the-scenes videos with Cara, including her advice for upcoming graduates, and more details about her favorite characters from her award-winning books. Check out our podcast YouTube channel, youtube.com/@ThisisPurdue. And of course, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Ted Schellenberger, Jon Garcia, Thad Boone, and Zach Mogensen. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team Project Manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini  Malshe. Our creative production assistant is Dalani Young. And our This is Purdue. intern is Caroline Keim. 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@ThisisPurdue. And as always, boiler up. 

Mung Chiang: 

Hello, this is Mung, president of Purdue University. 

Kate Young: 

And I’m Kate Young, host of the This Is Purdue podcast. We are here at the Fast Company Grill at South by Southwest, and we’re talking innovating what matters and driving pharma forward. 

Mung Chiang: 

Join us and Boiler up! 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Mung Chiang: 

Purdue has an industry-university collaboration. Because it’s the pharmaceutical industry and university talent pipeline research innovation together that has been defining the past decades and will continue to define the future ones. 

Kate Young: 

In this special episode of This Is Purdue, we are featuring the live Brands That Matter panel spotlighted at the Fast Company Grill during the annual South by Southwest Conference and Festivals in Austin, Texas. South by Southwest is one of the world’s biggest festivals, bringing together innovators, creatives, and industry leaders, and our Purdue brand studio team was so excited to be there for this on-location episode in partnership with Fast Company. 

Now, for this episode, I handed off my host microphone to moderator Shibani Joshi as Purdue president Mung Chiang took the stage as a panelist at the Fast Company Grill in the panel titled Innovating What Matters: Driving Pharma Forward. But first, a little bit of background. How exactly did Purdue end up on this global stage at South by Southwest? Well, for the fourth consecutive year, Purdue University was named to Fast Company’s Brands That Matter annual list. This distinction recognizes organizations for their ability to convey their brand, perform their mission, and advance their ideals with intention and authenticity, and Purdue stands proudly as the only university to make the list. 

Purdue has also emerged as a global leader in pharmaceutical and biotech innovation, collaborating with corporate leaders and pharma partners to tackle critical issues facing the industry. Plus, pharmaceutical manufacturing is a key component of Purdue’s One Health initiative, which advances knowledge and innovation related to animal, human, and environmental health and well-being through novel interdisciplinary research and industry partnerships.  So naturally, President Chang was a perfect fit to discuss pharma innovation as part of this panel. 

Now, remember, this is audio directly from the live panel, so it’s going to sound a little bit different from our other podcast episodes. This Is Purdue is proud to share Purdue’s giant leaps in the future of pharma, cross-industry partnerships, and the importance of forging meaningful connections with our audiences. Let’s get to it. Here’s Shibani kicking off the panel. 

Shibani Joshi: 

Good morning, and welcome to what I think is going to be a great conversation and a great morning. We are going to talk about the importance of cross-industry partnerships, particularly in the pharmaceutical industry, which is facing a crossroads these days with advances in technology, the need for sustainable solutions, as well as the opportunity to reimagine how we develop and deliver drugs in the marketplace. 

One of the bold ideas that we are seeing play out in industry around this is cross-industry partnerships, and that’s something that’s happening with all of our guests here today, and they’re talking about how they’re using cross-industry partnerships to advance their priorities and their strategy. I’d like to introduce our panel as we kick things off. Sean Bruich is the senior vice president of AI and Data at Amgen, President Mung Chiang of Purdue University… All right, in the house. 

Mung Chiang: 

Boiler up! 

Shibani Joshi: 

… Tatyana Kanzaveli, the CEO of Open Health Network. But before we jump in, I’d like to thank our partner, Purdue University, for making this conversation happen. 

And I want to start off this morning by taking a big picture kind of approach. There’s a lot of hype and promise around AI, right? Everybody’s doing AI in almost every single industry, but I’d love to hear from you particularly, how are you thinking about AI, prioritizing it, thinking about the pain points that need to come first within your specific organizations? And I’d like to start with you, Sean. 

Sean Bruich: 

Great. Well, thanks so much for having me. Everybody, it’s great to meet you. If you don’t know Amgen, Amgen’s one of the largest biotechnology companies in the United States. They make a whole host of medicines that serve areas of great unmet medical need. And I joined about six months ago to lead the AI and Data team, as you mentioned. 

We’re focused really on two zones. The first is around drug discovery and using AI and machine learning tools to augment the incredible work of our scientists to find new opportunities to treat disease, and then the second is to move faster in bringing these medicines to market. And that’s a more classic kind of approach to machine learning and AI around reducing cycle times, improving supply chain efficiency, improving manufacturing efficiency. So those are the two big zones that I’ve been focused on since I joined. 

Shibani Joshi: 

Terrific. President Chiang. 

Mung Chiang: 

Well, good morning, everyone. First of all, Purdue is very proud to be part of Fast Company Grill here. We’re getting grilled, I guess, right now. Why is it so hot here in winter? And great to be at South by. Purdue is proud to be a Brand That Matters for four years in a row now, and we are a brand that talks about excellence at scale, so 58,000 students on main campus, top 10 public university in the United States. We’re proud to be creating jobs and workforce at the same time along with innovation. 

So on AI for pharmaceutical industry, you can think of drug discovery, and then think about drug manufacturing and storage and transportation. On both fronts, AI can play a transformational role. Drug discovery front, you’ve got computational power coupled with the domain expertise on the data and on the manufacturing front. So Purdue created two years ago the Bill and Sherry Young Institute for Pharmaceutical Manufacturing Innovation, named after a legendary Boilermaker in the pharma industry, Bill Young. And we’re looking at how AI can enable deep automation in order to create a whole new set of manufacturing capabilities, both small molecules and biologics. So there’s huge transformational potential and we need to have the university industry working together, just like Bill Young Institute now working with Eli Lilly and Company and Merck in a consortium. 

Shibani Joshi: 

Tatyana? 

Tatyana Kanzaveli: 

Hi, thank you for having me here. And I’m a founder and CEO of Open Health Network. We started the company as AI in health care from day one. As soon as gen AI came around, we started deploying gen AI. And specifically related to pharma, we developed clinical trial protocol generation tool that automatically creates clinical trial protocols that reduces time from months and almost years to a few weeks. We also use gen AI for behavioral interventions, which is extremely important in clinical trials that adherence is low, so how you motivate people to do that. And the other area that is important for diversity in clinical trials is having representative data sets, so we build gen AI engine that generates synthetic data to complement real data to make sure we have representative data sets. Honored to be on the panel with you guys. 

Shibani Joshi: 

Let’s dig into this cross-industry partnership idea. President Chiang, I know this is something that has been a strategic imperative at Purdue across many industries, not just pharma. Tell us a little bit about what your collaboration looks like and what are the pain points of industry that this partnership is able to solve. For example, a skilled workforce, that’s a critical issue for the development and the future of pharma, but what else can come about from something like this? 

Mung Chiang: 

Yeah, I’ll give you two concrete examples. First is that we have a initiative called One Health at Purdue, human, animal, plant health working together. And we have a great partner called Elanco. It is the second largest in the world in animal vaccine. So we’re creating a One Health Innovation District in Indianapolis, where Purdue is opening an urban campus. 

Another example is Lilly Company. So Eli Lilly has been working with Purdue over the past several years on a $142 million project. $100 million is for research, $42 million is for scholarships, the Lilly Scholars, and workforce development, and internship with Lilly. Now, Lilly is building also a $13 billion huge manufacturing site right in between West Lafayette, north end, and Indy south end of Purdue’s main campus. So we call this America’s Hard-Tech Corridor, microelectronics, transportation, aerospace industry, and pharmaceutical industry. So right there, $13 billion in between the 65-mile-long corridor, we have this huge site. And Purdue is working with Lilly in a pharmaceutical manufacturing training facility to train the workforce of the future going into this AI-driven Industry 4.0. 

So if you look at those two examples, One Health Innovation District, downtown Indianapolis, Elanco, pharmaceutical-driven training facility, and a huge onshoring opportunity, onshoring back to our own country, back to the heartland, and then you tie it together with Purdue’s original main campus half an hour to the north, that densifies in a curated manner this pharmaceutical revolution happening in America’s heartland. 

Shibani Joshi: 

Yeah, it’s allowing us to deploy and execute ideas and medicines in a much faster way. I want to ask you, Sean, you bring a pretty robust and diverse experience to your role at Amgen. You have worked at Meta, Nike, and other industries. What skills and what trends are you seeing driven through AI across industries that you’re applying now to Amgen? 

Sean Bruich: 

When you look at the opportunity in front of us, as President Chiang mentioned, we are just at the beginning of when some of these brand new computational approaches are demonstrating real impact in biotech and biopharma. The Nobel Prize this year went to Professor David Baker at the University of Washington, but also to two Google DeepMind employees for an algorithm they developed that predicts protein folding. That is incredibly exciting, and there are going to be some huge changes, I think, in how we do science, the drug discovery part of what Amgen does, what the broader biotechnology field does. That being said, I think data is data and algorithms are algorithms, and so there are some real lessons learned from the transformation of the digital advertising industry or the transformation of direct-to-consumer retail that are incredibly applicable to companies like Amgen and biot- 

Shibani Joshi: 

But name a couple of those. What do you think? 

Sean Bruich: 

Yeah, look, you think about Nike going from being a wholesale manufacturer that ships 10 million shoes to Footlocker to having to deliver individual boxes of shoes to consumers. That sort of approach to digitizing operations, to automation, to data-driven decision-making absolutely are going to be able to be applied into the biotech and biopharma space. And there’s real benefit to moving faster at each stage of the drug delivery process, because that means you’re getting medicines to patients who have unmet medical need a lot faster. 

So I think both sides of that coin are really exciting. I think there’s going to be some real novel opportunities for data science to change how we do drug discovery and how scientists do their job, but just in terms of improving how drug companies operate, that’s also a big opportunity and there’s a lot to learn there. 

Shibani Joshi: 

Tatyana, I’d love to bring your perspective on this as you’ve been using AI and data analytics for a very long time. You don’t think that AI is on the brink, it’s here and it’s been here. What are you using AI for? How is it informing and accelerating what you’re doing? 

Tatyana Kanzaveli: 

If you think about overall health care, it’s all about data and massive amounts of multidimensional data sets. We’ve been using it for supporting researchers in many different diseases, because you need to analyze data that comes from different sponsors, from humans, from environment, from EHR, to make sense and understand causation, personal treatment, and outcomes. 

In regards to pharma, I had a panel yesterday where I had CEO of Insilico, and he showed me a bottle, everything that has been developed using gen AI. So they were able to define targets and move into phase two of clinical trials, completely AI-powered drug discovery and production. This is the future that can bring us precision medicine and will be able to introduce drugs faster, which means that we’ll be able to treat, and cheaper. So we will be able to produce drugs that will treat people who right now probably don’t have anything and save lives. So it’s exciting times. 

Shibani Joshi: 

The promise is real, but the road to the promise is uncertain, bumpy, lots of issues, regulation, many different players, many different possibilities. What do you think the pain points are or the roadblocks that each of you are seeing that cross-industry partnerships can help or where you’re putting more of your effort internally to smooth out? 

Sean Bruich: 

Transformation is always really hard. I think at the heart of this AI revolution, it’s a different way of thinking about your data assets, if you’re a company, and a different way of thinking about what are the partners that are going to matter to you going forward. So on the data side of things, there’s so much that scientists do today that’s not yet been digitized, so much that’s manual, so much that’s not really even captured or addressable to AI systems. And that, across the industry, whether you’re a small biotech company and a huge university, a large drug company, that’s going to be step number one to making any of this actually tie out together. If you don’t have the right data, it’s not been digitized, there’s nothing your AI systems can do about it. 

So that’s going to be a huge area of investment, but it’s also going to require a lot of these companies that have traditionally thought of themselves as purely a scientific enterprise as much more of a technology-driven success story. Whether you’re a small biotech company with your university, whether you’re a corporation, your underlying technology staff, the partnership with AI and other large technology companies, suddenly those become almost as important as the scientific enterprise. Which is not to diminish the criticality of genius scientists or the scientific discovery process, but augmenting scientists with automation, with technology, with prediction tools is going to be a huge exercise in inventing new ways of doing the same work more efficiently. 

Shibani Joshi: 

President Chiang, I see you nodding your head? 

Mung Chiang: 

Well, because I’m in agreement with Sean here. And maybe I’ll just add several other challenges we’re facing, one of which is AI is like a generalist. You’ve got large language models, you’ve got generative AI algorithms, but the hammer got to be specialized. You need a specialist in each vertical domains to work alongside the generalist. So for example, in drug discovery, Purdue has a fantastic professor, one of many we have, his name is Phil Low. He’s got 600 US patents, dozens of drugs, eight startup companies, including the cancer drug Pluvicto, for example. And I asked him, and he said, “Yeah, it’s great with AI and it let’s have the right access to data, and so on. But the space for AI, even today’s AI, to search is so huge, you still need the domain expertise to work together in a drug discovery phase.” 

A second example is the manufacturing part. If you look at a manufacturing floor, there’s a lot of physical objects. It’s not just the virtual side of the data and computation. So that’s why Purdue has an Institute for Physical AI, where the bytes of AI meet the atoms of what we make, what we grow, what we move. In this case, it’s what we make and how we make it. The physical and the virtual interface require a dialogue between the AI experts and the manufacturing experts. 

And a third and last example I add to that is if you think about onshoring opportunities as the global supply chain of pharmaceutical industry is reshuffled. So here in our country, and I hope more so in Midwest than in Texas, sorry about that, but I’m biased, we have a lot of opportunities of job creation. But in order to onshore these chemical processing opportunities, you need new chemistry. Not just the virtual side of AI, but also the physical side of, how would you process the chemicals in a way that is compliant with US regulations to onshore it here? So there’s a lot of challenges, but also opportunities, with the clean chemistry side of it too. 

Tatyana Kanzaveli: 

I am a strong believer in partnerships. And with universities, my company, we try to recruit on a part-time or full-time basis PhDs and students of universities. And I think it’s important, you mentioned that you’re building training facilities to train people to think differently. Those things are changing, so it’s important for universities to step in and prepare students for what’s coming. 

Partnership with industry, for us, startups is crucial. We can’t just build things without partners. In my case, we partner with government, we partner with providers and pharma, and jointly we can deliver value. The advantage of startups is that we can attract and we can move fast. We have a capacity to immediately make significant changes in the way we do things that kind of big companies have processes, procedures, management, it’s more difficult for them to do those things. So we can run experiments, iterate, and innovate together with academia and public companies. 

Shibani Joshi: 

That’s great, but we’re also facing uncertain times for academic institutions with research funding and NIH funding at risk, President Chiang. It sounds like this is another reason that these industry partnerships are crucial, particularly right now. 

Mung Chiang: 

Yeah, well, the university president’s job is getting easier and easier every day. It’s becoming very boring. But you are right, we have opportunities. I see this as an opportunity to double down on strength. For example, Purdue has an industry-university collaboration. I mentioned quite a few consortia and great company partners. And if you are one of the pharma companies out there, please, give me a call. I’d love to talk to you. I’d love to recruit you to Purdue’s campus, the America’s Hard-Tech Corridor. And we have great relationship, because it’s the pharmaceutical industry and university talent pipeline research innovation together that has been defining the past decades and will continue to define the future ones. 

Shibani Joshi: 

As we wrap up here, let’s talk about the future. Lots of promise, lots of complexity, but what is that vision, I guess, each of you are holding in terms of patient care, drug development, or the future of health care that gets you up every morning and gets you motivated to do your work? I’d love to hear what that vision is. I’ll start with you, Sean. 

Sean Bruich: 

I’m just delighted to have an opportunity to participate in this revolution, where technology, deeper understanding of genetics, deeper understanding of precision medicine, all powered through data and AI, are going to transform the way we do health care in this country and beyond. I think it’s such an exciting time, and I am delighted that folks from different walks of life, whether it’s data scientists, biologists, chemists, physicians, pharmacists, are going to come together and really rethink what’s possible here. 

Mung Chiang: 

Well, I recently met some students looking at institutes at their new physical facilities. I look at the faces of these undergraduate and graduate students, and they are eager to say, “With creativity, we can save even more lives.” And with our partnership, we can accelerate and amplify that life-saving opportunity in this industry. 

Tatyana Kanzaveli: 

I started my company when I was diagnosed with cancer. And my vision was to have all this data and the power of AI to figure out why, to figure out how, to save lives, and that basically is a driver. I wake up and I’m excited about new technologies, new partnerships, new ways on how we can impact people’s lives. 

Shibani Joshi: 

Beautiful way to end, saving people’s lives with specialized approaches. Tatyana, President Chiang, Sean, thank you very much. Thank you to our partner, Purdue University, and thanks to everyone for joining us for this conversation. 

Mung Chiang: 

Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Thanks for joining us for this very special episode of This Is Purdue. Purdue’s overall presence at South by Southwest provided a major platform to amplify Purdue’s renowned reputation while showcasing our thought leadership and global impact across industries. You can watch more behind-the-scenes videos from the Fast Company Grill at South by Southwest on our podcast YouTube page, YouTube.com/@ThisIsPurdue. And, be sure to follow This Is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. 

This Is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Alli Chaney, Jon Garcia, and Ted Schellenberger. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography for this episode was led by Jon Garcia. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. Our creative production assistant is Dalani Young. And, our This Is Purdue intern is Caroline Keim. 

Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@ThisIsPurdue. And as always, Boiler up!

Alex: 

This is Alex Psomas, and you’re listening to, This is Purdue. 

Kate: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young and you are listening to, This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators, who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps toward their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Alex: 

AI is a set of tools for all sorts of things. The AI umbrella is so large, so many things fit under it. In our application, we were trying to solve a very specific task, which is match food donations to food recipients. The other thing is now you can scale. Now you can just go beyond Indiana. You can include more food banks. You can process donations a lot faster because a human doesn’t have to sit around trying to call people on the phone and so on. 

Kate: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to Alex Psomas, assistant professor of computer Science in Purdue University’s College of Science. Alex and his team at Purdue are using artificial intelligence to fight hunger. That’s right. This Purdue researcher is helping to solve one of the world’s toughest challenges, food insecurity and hunger. Now, we’ve all heard so much about AI in the news recently, and Alex is going to dig into this technology and how he leverages AI for good to solve societal issues right in his own Indiana community. You’ll hear about Alex’s AI models used to outsource decisions to make more informed and fairer choices on how best to distribute food among food pantries in Indianapolis. 

Plus, he shares how this model can scale to other areas of the country as well. By the way, this interview was extra special for our, this is Purdue team because Alex was the first boilermaker guest to join us in our new podcast studio. You can check out more on our YouTube page, YouTube.com\@This is Purdue. Okay, first things first, though. We kicked things off with Alex’s life growing up in Greece and his journey to becoming an assistant professor and researcher more than 5,000 miles away at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana. Alex, thank you so much for joining us on, this is Purdue. This is our first interview with our new studio set, so we’re really excited to have you and show off our studio too. 

Alex: 

Awesome. Thank you for having me. It’s very exciting. 

Kate: 

So tell us a little bit about your childhood. Have you always been interested in technology? You’re a computer science professor and researcher. Is that something growing up that you’ve always loved computers and technology, or how did that start for you? 

Alex: 

Yeah, that’s a difficult question to answer. So my dad was a welder and later on he had his own business of making stainless steel tanks for wine and oil and these sort of things. So even as a kid, eight, 10 years old, I would go on sweep floors or whatever. So I kind of used to growing up with large machinery around, so to speak, he would throw me around. I would always be curious about how things work and I had a computer at home that I would take apart and put together because I had nothing else to do, I guess. So I was always into how things work. 

Kate: 

Kind of tinkering around with computers. 

Alex: 

Yeah, exactly. 

Kate: 

Give us a little bit of background on what sparked you and your interest in wanting to give back to your community. Was that something that interested you when you were younger as well? 

Alex: 

So I’m from Greece. Greece is a small place and like all small places, community is important. I was part of many communities growing up, my rowing community, my high school community, my college community, family, later on in grad school, the theory community and so on, and looking back at my life and experiences. Every time I’m part of a strong community, that’s when I’m the happiest. And of course, part of being part of a community is not just feeling supported, but also supporting others. 

Kate: 

So you’re from Greece. We have to hear about your journey to Purdue and how you wanted to become a boilermaker. How did that happen? 

Alex: 

In Greece, the paths are somewhat structured. So up until high school, even if you’re in a small village, an island with 10 people or you’re in downtown Athens, everyone does the same books. Everyone is very uniform education right up until the last year of high school where you have to make humongous choice of where to go to college, and it’s very specific. So if you pick to be a math major, you’re looking at 40 math courses and nothing else. 

Kate: 

Oh wow. 

Alex: 

Computer science major, 40 computer science courses and nothing else. You don’t really get to pick inside of college. 

Kate: 

Not very well-rounded. 

Alex: 

Yes, yes, very one street. So it was a very hard choice for me. I was into math, computer science, mechanical engineering, coaching, everything under the sun. I picked computer science because I’m greedy, looking at the curriculum, it looked like it had the most loopholes to learn a lot of things. It had a lot of math. You could do more physics if you wanted. You could do more coding if you wanted. So I thought it was a good way to decide later. And in college I fell in love with algorithms, and computer science, I really… First course I took was phenomenal, which is a course I’m teaching this semester, by the way. 

I always tell this to the students. And then I went to grad school. That was my first experience in the United States. I went to Berkeley. Then I wanted to just keep learning, keep contributing to research and postdoc and then job market for academic jobs. That’s the first time I visited Purdue when I was interviewing here. And it really struck me as a special place. It seemed that even though people were doing super cool stuff and super impactful stuff, it was a sense of calmness and kind of lack of stress. Everyone was very nice. And from the people I talked to, it felt like everyone felt supported. My experience as well is the same. So it has lived up to this expectation. 

Kate: 

Yeah, we were talking before this about how California and the mid-west is a bit different vibes, right? 

Alex: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stress levels are really- 

Kate: 

I’m glad we’ve given you the warm Midwest welcome here. Okay, so let’s get into AI. Someone who doesn’t know AI, doesn’t know how to use it, what would you tell them? Like AI one-on-one for beginners? 

Alex: 

That’s a great question because I can answer it with other people’s words. 

Kate: 

Okay. 

Alex: 

This topic has shown up since Ancient Greece if you really want to be pedantic about it. But even the beginning of computer science, this conversation has come up again and again. For example, Larry Tesler, famous computer science said, “AI is what has not been done yet”, which is somehow accurate. Dijkstra another very famous computer scientist, my favorite quote of all time, which is regarding artificial intelligence. So you have intelligence, you have thinking. “So the question of whether computers can think is the same as whether submarines can swim.” 

So people like to have this cute one-liners, but what is AI? AI is a set of tools, a big umbrella, all sorts of things fit under it, and it’s an evolving agenda. So when I was an undergrad, we talk about spam filtering or things that are now silly, spell checking, this would fit under AI was now because my phone does IT, it doesn’t seem so exciting anymore. Back then my phone didn’t do it, so it was more exciting. But what’s common, typically when we talk about AI, we mean reasoning, learning, knowledge, representation, language processing, all these sort of things are typically under the AI umbrella. 

Kate: 

What would you tell someone though who might be confused about it? Is it easy to use? Where would they start, maybe? 

Alex: 

So the reason I think things are confusing is because the umbrella is so big, the question is so broad. When you say about AI, let’s do an analogy. There’s this beautiful book by Narayanan and Kapoor, okay, AI Snake Oil. And there they describe a world where every machine that can take you from place A to place B, it’s called vehicle. So a bicycle and a car and a ship and an airplane and a rocket. They’re all vehicles. So now let’s try to have the discussion of if vehicles are environmentally friendly, it’s a very hard discussion to have. It’s impossible because we’re putting all these things under one umbrella. If someone made a faster ship engine, all of a sudden you’re like, why is my bicycle not going any faster, right? It’s very, very difficult. So I think the difficulty in the conversation comes from the umbrella being so big. 

So we can talk about prediction, AI prediction. Is AI any good at predicting the future? Is AI any good at recognizing things like, show it a picture of a cat, can tell you it’s a cat. These are two very different things. So I would say where to start, just to answer your question, start at understanding that it’s not one thing. There’s categories. That’s the first thing to understand. AI is a set of tools for all sorts of things. The AI umbrella is so large, so many things fit under it. In our application, we were trying to solve a very specific task, which is match food donations to food recipients. It’s a matching problem, and we were trying to automate a person. So we have very, very concrete task at hand and we have very, very concrete tools to solve it. 

Kate: 

So as Alex just mentioned, he and his team used AI to match food donations to food recipients. Now, if you remember our research series episode with Purdue food science professors, Amanda Dearing and Haley Oliver, food insecurity is a massive problem across the world. And boilermaker researchers are continually working on solutions, including Alex. And according to the United States Department of Agriculture, food waste is estimated at between 30 and 40% of the food supply. So how is Purdue helping to solve this? Alex explains more about how his work with the Indy Hunger Network on an initiative known as Food Drop allows shipments of perfectly edible food to be efficiently donated to food banks instead of being bound for a landfill. 

Alex: 

So the Food Drop Initiative is an initiative run by the Indy Hunger network of food organization in Indianapolis. And its purpose is to redirect rejected food loads of truck drivers away from landfills and into food banks. And the idea was very simple. You had these truck drivers and for one reason or the other, they had little to do with whether they were carrying food that was edible, but they had a bunch of food that they had to get rid of like whatever they were supposed to deliver it didn’t want it for whatever reason, you can think of you’re carrying and pallets of food and one of them shifts. The food is fine, everything is fine, but the recipient doesn’t want it. So now what do you do? The outside option is just take it to a landfill, throw it away. So Food Drop was trying to not have this happen and match the food to food banks. 

Kate: 

So how and why exactly did Alex and his team use AI to fuel food pantries? He shares why this unique process takes all of the emotion out of the equation something humans find impossible to do and replaces this decision-making with innovative AI models to weigh all of the possible considerations and then come up with a solution that best benefits the most amount of people. See, by automating food matching decisions, more logical and fair food distribution can occur. 

Alex: 

So where does AI and machine learning come in? So in these problems, these are matching problems. You’re trying to match a donor with a recipient. There’s many things you can think of this way. So as things scale up, when you let a human make these decisions, what you’ll start seeing is that 99% of the donations go to only 1% of the possible donors. And this could be all sorts of human aspects, like, oh, this person responds quickly, or this person is very reliable or whatever. But the effect is the effect. The things start concentrating, and that’s where machine learning and AI can help. The current system is a person is making these matching decisions and we just want to automate it. And in doing so, we want to ensure that of course we’re doing the right decisions, making a sense of people are not driving a lot, the food is going to people who want the food and can use the food. 

But also at the same time, we are being fair. The way decision making works is we would, for many decisions that need to be made, we would like to have to do things in a democratic process where we all come together and make a decision. And that is sometimes possible, for example, when we want elect a representative, but often the way we make decisions is we elect a representative and have them make all the decisions, which is sort of the other extreme. And that is because lack of expertise or because the input output is too much, it’s too much to ask everyone for something every single time. 

The thing with AI and one of the methods that we do suggest, you can often predict what people would do. So if I could predict what you think all the time, then maybe I can simulate the way that direct democracy. So asking everyone a question all the time would work if I just have a good way to predict what you would do. And now this allows me to scale or this allows me to make more fair decisions for a number of things. So food donation, that’s precisely the approach we took. 

Kate: 

Alex dives further into food insecurity in the US and reiterates the importance of using AI for good. 

Alex: 

When you start working in these food allocation problems, I didn’t realize it at least, but food insecurity is embarrassingly bad, globally but also in the US. You would think, okay, there’s so much food, everyone’s throwing away their leftovers and trying to lose weight or whatever. Food insecurity, which is defined as, I’m going to bed hungry. A hundred percent of US counties have food insecurity. Somewhere like 40 million adults, 10 million children face food insecurity in this country in 2022. The numbers are shocking. In our minds, or at least in my mind. I knew it was a problem, but I didn’t realize before I started working in the space back in 2017 that it’s a huge problem. It’s unbelievable how big this problem is. 

Kate: 

Alex says, this machine learning program also saves people time and energy. Not only that, but this model can be scaled beyond Indiana to include more food banks. 

Alex: 

Beyond people’s time. So again, this matching process is run by a single person. This is not their only job. So now we can free some of their time into something that in a sense, a machine can do better or an algorithm can do better. The other thing is now you can scale. Now you can just go beyond Indiana, you can include more food banks, you can process donations a lot faster because a human doesn’t have to sit around trying to call people on the phone and so on. 

Kate: 

And speaking of scaling, Alex and his team are now working with the Society of St. Andrew, a United Methodist Hunger Relief nonprofit that focuses on food waste and hunger. 

Alex: 

So the idea was once it’s automated, it would get passed on to another organization which we have now. So this is now being supported and it lives under a different organization called Society of St. Andrews. But they didn’t have to train anybody, they could just immediately take this on because there’s nothing to do. There’s nothing that you need to learn. You don’t need an employee who knows how these decisions are made or how to navigate the process. And in fact, a few months ago, an organization from Washington, the state of Washington, so near, I think their south of Seattle want to take this on. They want to run a similar program over there. They don’t need to do anything. They could just, our code is open source, they can just take it, change the locations of the recipients and run it. It can run tomorrow if they decide to run it. 

Kate: 

As Alex just mentioned, this model uses open source code, code that’s open to the public. It’s also funded by the National Science Foundation and a Google AI for Social Good award. He discusses his goals for continuing to expand. 

Alex: 

We are interested in expanding. So we have seen things getting allocated. We want to do more. I think there’s more to do just because we’re not limited by human time. So we can expand in a sense for free. So we have some funding underway. There are some changes we want to make in the backend, some technical changes. The goal is to try to grow our set of recipients, so the people on the list. So contact more food banks. So we’re working with the Society of St. Andrew for this. We have applied for some funding for this project and we’ll see how it goes. 

Kate: 

We talked about there’s no human decision-making and it’s all AI, but ethics in the tech industry has been at the top of the headlines lately. You’re nodding. So why are you confident that your solution with this food drop has this fairness and can maintain that fairness? 

Alex: 

Well, the short answer is is because I can prove it. Okay, you see, or what’s the process here? You see a real problem. You see a real world problem. Now reality is complicated and math cannot deal with that. So you abstract away details and you get to some nice model, a theoretical model where the actors behave in a simple way, simple enough for you to be able to argue for. And in that model you define what fair means and then you prove some stuff and hopefully whatever you prove matches something to back to the world. 

So the only disagreement can come, someone can complain, is whether they disagree with what I mean when I say fair. they say no, what you say is fair is actually not fair. And the other is, when I did this abstraction, whether I move something that I shouldn’t have, whether I took away something from the real world that’s very important. And I removed it because I didn’t think it was important. And I believe that we haven’t done this. I can tell you what the fairness notion is. I think that’s a simple one. So there’s no technical things about it, but if there’s any arguments, it will be one of those two steps. And because everything is open, you can go read my paper, I’m open to- 

Kate: 

You’re open to feedback? 

Alex: 

Yeah, of course. So that’s how science proceeds. 

Kate: 

We’ll link Alex’s research in our podcast show notes for you all. Alex’s graduate and undergraduate students are involved in this research as well. So what’s his approach to mentoring them, especially when it comes to topics like AI and computer science that are changing day to day on a global scale? Here’s a hint. What he wants for these boilermakers students is actually pretty simple. Find something that excites them. 

Alex: 

So what’s my teaching style? So I’m a little chaotic. I don’t know if this coming across in this conversation. It’s not for no reason. So I really strongly believe that the bottleneck in research, in academic research, many, many times, more times than people would think, it’s not intelligence or talent. That’s what most people think. That’s why science is not progressing because there’s not enough talent. I think that’s not true. I think the real reason is there’s not desire. So people like me are excited about problems and I have found it a very unsuccessful way to mentor people is to tell them to work on the problems that I’m excited about. So instead I do something that is very difficult for them. So they’re all very annoyed, which is tell them everything under the sun that I’m excited about. Not one thing. So 50 things and then let them pick. 

Kate: 

So tell us some of those things that you’re excited about. 

Alex: 

A lot of them are very technical, like very specific technical questions that I don’t know how to answer, but others are the opposite. So I’m very excited about AI applications in democracy. What does that mean? What can we do? How can we make better decisions collectively? How do you form committees, citizen assemblies? These sort of things are very excited for me or I’ve been recently learning a lot about, through actually colleagues here at Purdue, applications of AI and machine learning in medicine, how some things are done a little naively. 

So I’m excited to learn more about, okay, there seems to be some room to put things together more. So this will be very open-ended examples. And my hope, and this hope has been materialized, is that someone will get excited about something that is in my peripheral vision of excitement and then I get to learn from them. So that’s the best way to keep track of things is have someone who’s really excited tell you about it, right? So I hopefully to infect someone and then learn from them. 

Kate: 

I love what Alex just said right there. He knows he can’t mentor students by telling them to work on problems that interest and excite him. They need to work on problems that inspire and excite them. That’s the difference maker. And speaking of students, in 2022, Alex received a career award from the National Science Foundation, which is the most prestigious award given to junior faculty who embody the role of teacher scholars through research. Alex shares what this honor means to him. 

Alex: 

First, it was really nice to be able to get the funds to fund students and have them explore their interests together with mine. Certainly the award helped with that, but more than that, it felt really nice because this was under AF, Algorithmic Foundations, so which is a very broad kind of umbrella in theoretical computer science, the comparison a little bit apples to oranges, how you compare to people who to give the award to. So it really felt, I would say, very, very nice that people appreciate the work that I do. People in my community, in the theoretical computer science community appreciate this work. I feel like that was the most meaningful part of this. 

Kate: 

You talked about your passion for computer science. Purdue had the first computer science program in the US. How are researchers like you at Purdue using that experience to be part of this rapid evolution of AI? 

Alex: 

Purdue has had the first CS department and that really put us in a good spot today. And you can see that computer science really has a big place in Purdue as a whole. Purdue is at the forefront of all sorts of things. There’s people like me who focus on more foundational aspects, understanding things at their core. We have very, very strong people doing computer vision, things that have to do with images, video, that sort of thing. Robotics, we have a very, very strong robotics team. We might have Aniket Bera- 

Kate: 

That’s exactly I’m thinking of the AI dialogue. 

Alex: 

Yes. Security is very strong. So people trying to figure out is AI security? Is AI trustworthy? Purdue as a whole is attacking the human computer interaction, all the talent we’re recruiting and all the kind of combined efforts that go into the broader agenda. But I think Purdue as a whole, computer science is really at the forefront of this. 

Kate: 

So not only is Purdue a leader in computer science, but our university is also a leader when it comes to AI and one of Purdue University President Mung Chiang’s strategic initiatives includes Purdue Computes, which launched as student interest in computing related majors and the societal impact of artificial intelligence and ships continued to rise rapidly. Purdue computes emphasizes these four key pillars, computing, semiconductor research and development, physical AI and quantum science and engineering. Alex shares more. 

Alex: 

Purdue computes is this massive initiative at Purdue that’s trying to attack a huge number of problems all at the same time and recruiting the manpower to do so. The whole initiative is facing challenges and providing solutions for things across the board. So AI and applications to agriculture, manufacturing, detecting bias, chip design, robotics, everything across the board. I think just so many exciting things are happening in that space. 

Kate: 

What’s your favorite part about being part of the Purdue Computes initiative? 

Alex: 

I think getting to collaborate with people, just having the expertise that you need available. So for example, I was recently in talks with Food Finders, the company, the NGO here in Lafayette. Again, some AI application in their operations and there was some problem with data collection. It seemed that there was a very expensive solution and that cheaper solution to do the data collection would take a picture. Everyone in the market takes a picture of something and I was like, oh, but I know nothing about computer vision. So I don’t know, actually what I’m saying is reasonable. Well, two days later now, I know it’s reasonable because I was talking to my colleague Raymond, who is one of the best people in the world and computer vision and he was right there, I could just ask him. It really makes everything go a lot faster having all these cool people doing cool stuff. 

Kate: 

We’ve had a lot of researchers on the podcast who have said it’s so collaborative. It’s this special community within Purdue. So that’s cool to hear. 

Alex: 

That’s how science moves. Just by having the expertise. No one can be an expert on everything. It’s just too many things going. So just knowing that you have reliable colleagues that are experts in their own domain is really, really important. 

Kate: 

Going back to, you talked about community, growing up in Greece. What has it been like acclimating and being involved in this boilermaker community overall for you and your family? 

Alex: 

It’s been fun. It’s been fun. It is just very different. It’s very hard to compare. Greece is a very uniform place. Everyone pretty much looks like me and acts like me. Exactly. Roughly, it’s exaggerating. On the flip side, Purdue is an international community driven from the university. So just so many people come from all sorts of different backgrounds. It has been really cool to be part of that. 

Kate: 

What discoveries or findings can we expect from Purdue, specifically within computer science and AI in 2025? 

Alex: 

That’s a hard question to answer. So we have some of the best people in the world working on things across the board. So foundational things, theoretical things, vision, robotics, human-computer interaction, and their applications across the board to agriculture medicine. 

Kate: 

So last question here. You get to see and contribute to so much amazing research at Purdue, like we talked about earlier. What do you want the world to know about the work that’s happening here at Purdue? 

Alex: 

We’re a leader in so many things. People here are pushing the agenda in all sorts of things, especially the College of Engineering and the College of Agriculture are a big part of being world leaders. But even at the College of Science, we’re really a part of all the exciting things that are happening in the AI space. 

Kate: 

Well, we can’t thank you enough for joining us and celebrating our new studio with us. Is there anything else I missed? Anything you want to tell our listeners? 

Alex: 

Regarding AI, I think the most important thing is to really go beyond the buzzwords. I would say that is a concrete message that I think is important to put out there. I think a lot of people are somehow suspicious that AI around them is bogus or exaggerated or just straight out false. At the same time, it seems very useful in other things, and I think people are having a hard time articulating exactly what they mean and it’s difficult to articulate exactly what you mean. And I think that the confusion and the way the confusion gets clarified is by knowing the stuff. So be less scared and more open to learning how these things work because it’s not going anywhere. Our lives will become more and more algorithmic, so to speak. 

Kate: 

I love that. That’s great. Be open-minded. Don’t be scared to utilize AI in your general life. 

Alex: 

It’s easy for me to say because it’s my job and also it’s my job to be wrong. That’s most of research. Only mistakes. 1% of the time you do something good, 99% it’s wrong. That’s fine. So I’m very used to being wrong, but that’s really the worst thing that can happen. You could just be wrong. Say something embarrassing and it’s fine as long as you learn something in the end. 

Kate: 

I love that. No, that’s perfect advice. Well, again, we can’t thank you enough. 

Alex: 

Thank you for having me. It was great. 

Kate: 

It was wonderful to have this special boilermaker in our new podcast studio. We have additional bonus content from Alex’s interview on our podcast YouTube channel. Head over to YouTube.com/@This is Purdue and click that subscribe button while you’re there. Plus you can check out some videos of our new Purdue brand studio as well. And of course, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Ted Schellenberger in collaboration with Jon Garcia, Thad Boone and Zach Mogensen. 

Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. Our video production assistant is Dalani Young. Our this is Purdue intern is Caroline Keim and Purdue brand studio team member Brittany Steff is the author of a Purdue News article featuring Alex’s research, which you can check out in our show notes. Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcasts. There you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe and leave us a review. And as always, boiler up.