Lauren Bright: 

This is Lauren Bright and you are listening to This Is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. 

Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Lauren Bright: 

I think we’ve started getting that dopamine hit from buying more things, whereas we used to get the dopamine hit taking the thing that we loved and cared about and had a story and had a memory around it and maybe was our grandmother’s and wearing that. 

I think we’re kind of replacing one thing with another form of satisfaction that is really pushed upon us, but you also see the slow fashion trend starting to really rise up in this space as well as kind of the counterbalance to what’s happening in fashion and ultra-fast fashion. So I’m excited to see where that goes over time. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Lauren Bright. Lauren is a proud Purdue alumna and fashion consultant. She’s worked with elite brands such as Nike, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Columbia Sportswear Company, and Gap Inc. And today, Lauren leads Torus, an innovative textile consulting firm based in Portland, Oregon. She’s dedicated to addressing the urgent conditions caused by fast fashion, including the impact of synthetic fibers on people and our planet. 

In this conversation, we’re diving into fast fashion, what it is and why people are leaning more into this trend-driven way of shopping. Here’s a hint. Dopamine hits and not wanting to be seen in the same outfit twice on social media are factors in this. Plus, we’re talking about the science behind today’s latest fashion, tips on creating a capsule wardrobe that won’t break the bank and what the future of fashion and fashion sustainability holds. 

Lauren also shares more about her journey as a boilermaker. See, she was the first student at Purdue to mix engineering and design and graduated with a multidisciplinary engineering degree in 2011. She points to Purdue as one of the reasons for her massive career success, from the quality of the curriculum to the thoughtful professors and mentors who guided her along the way. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Lauren. 

Lauren, thank you so much for joining us on This Is Purdue, the Official University podcast. We’re just really eager to dive deeper into this intersection of STEM and fashion and the science behind today’s latest fashion and talk all about this industry with you. We’re going to dive into fast fashion here first. Right now, fast fashion accounts for 20% of global revenue, so $1 in every $5 spent in the industry is spent on fast fashion. As an expert at the convergence of fashion and STEM, how do you personally define fast fashion? 

Lauren Bright: 

Thanks for having me here, Kate, just want to say that first. I’m super honored to be here. Definitely been a very interesting trajectory since my time at Purdue. I would say that there are many definitions of fast fashion. I think that’s actually rapidly evolving. In fact, there’s an entirely new category of fashion that we call ultra-fast fashion. Generally speaking, a fast fashion brand would be one that does not produce clothing according to a more traditional seasonal timeline. 

So often when you look at fashion brands, in particular, the ones that I’ve worked at, they either have four seasons or two seasons that they’re working to, and generally, they design those products for about a year and a half in advance of them hitting the market. So that includes everything from doing the market development, initial product creation, and then going through all of the phases of development, creating prototypes, all of that stuff, creating all the marketing materials, and then getting out onto the market. 

And usually this two to four seasons either looks like fall and winter, summer and spring, or fall, winter, summer, spring. So I would say when we’re looking at fast fashion, you’re looking at brands who operate outside of that sort of timeline. So I guess they’re very responsive to emerging or fleeting trends, maybe you could say, easily inspired by things that are happening so they have the opportunity to be responsive, and I think there’s some technology that enables that nowadays. They also generally produce in really, really high volumes, which also equates to a lot of waste, which we can talk about. They’re often called mass market retailers, and then they often have ultra low or low prices in comparison to what other brands are putting onto the market. 

Kate Young: 

What do you think contributed to this explosive growth of fast fashion, even in the past few years? 

Lauren Bright: 

Unfortunately, I think it’s really a consequence of late stage capitalism that’s really focused on the infinite growth of a business to maximize shareholder profits instead of focusing on stakeholders or rights holders, or in general, the full value that is possible in terms of creating value across the system. I really see fast fashion as a beacon for the proliferation of extractive systems and continued colonial rule. Unfortunately, the industry itself really has its origins in colonialism. You see this with the cotton trade, there are many, many books on this. 

It’s actually very fascinating to see how cotton was a catalyst for not only colonialism, but in general capitalism and the industry, in particular, the fast fashion side that continues to perpetuate these dynamics, both with the lowest common denominator manufacturing, but also end of life textile waste trade, which is now being categorized as waste colonialism and it’s kind of this new thing that people are becoming more and more aware of. 

And I would say the last thing is that I actually really find this growth of fast fashion brands and sort of this tie to capitalism as something that’s painfully uncreative in terms of business innovation and product output. The thing that I think people are starting to miss is that textiles are actually one of the original forms of craft. They were cherished. They told stories of place and time and circumstance. They’re very personal to the people who made them into the regions with which they came, and they really co-evolved alongside humanity in terms of being able to meet our very specific and niche needs in different climate environments. 

In general, I would say when we’re looking at the impact of fast fashion brands and how they’ve been able to become more prolific in recent years, it’s made it really difficult for other organizations who are making textiles, so who are not fast fashion brands, but also consumers to make the right choice the easy choice. And some of these mass marketing campaigns, which you often see with fast fashion brands are actually, in my opinion, an abuse of the human psyche. They’re leveraging our inherent, instinctive and tribal natures against us. And I think all of that together is sort of what’s resulted in the trends of today and the desire to acquire fashion at a pace that’s really unprecedented in terms of what’s been possible throughout human history. 

Kate Young: 

Do you think social media is also impacting all of this? 

Lauren Bright: 

Oh, absolutely. The thing that’s crazy is that I’m an expert in this field and I am still pulled towards it. I mean, that just shows you the power. I mean, humans are so complex and so are the systems that we’re tied to, both psychologically and ecologically, et cetera. And what’s really fascinating is a lot of these brands who we’ve been working with for many years, they’re not hiring the regular marketing person from 30 years ago, they’re hiring people who majored in psychology. And you see this in AI and those are how the algorithms are feeding us, it’s really something that we’re up against that is, as I stated before, completely unprecedented. And we see this across a lot of industries, of course, this isn’t just fast fashion, but of course this makes fast fashion much more appealing. 

And then you also have the inherent dynamic that we’re living in today where there’s pretty vast income inequality, less expensive clothing means that people have more access to be able to maintain their other basic form of care or human needs. This sort of easy access to new products coupled with that desirability that they’re creating are obviously very determinant driving forces in terms of our purchasing decisions. 

And then I would argue going back to the previous point about textiles as craft is that all of this, in my opinion, is really tied to what I call, and maybe the industry calls like black box manufacturing, which is where the industry has really moved away from place-based making and heritage and authentic storytelling to create opaque supply chains that really give them higher levels of plausible deniability if something goes wrong. That sort of decoupling of our understanding of where textiles come from in combination with our desire to have more and more of them makes it easier for us to buy into this new model of purchasing. 

Kate Young: 

Is it appealing to people because you can buy it online quickly? What are some of the other benefits that impact humans and appeal to us? 

Lauren Bright: 

I would say that’s true. I think we’re also just in a world that demands so much of us, right? And going back to the comment about us being very tribal creatures, there’s always a new event where we need a new thing. And with social media… 

Kate Young: 

Vacation. 

Lauren Bright: 

Totally. And now there’s more access to our physical presence online and the desire to look different or new or creative, I think is a really strong pull. I also think, once again, this sort of tech-enabled ability for us to receive things at that pace has done a lot and that disconnection that I was referring to, I think we’ve started getting that dopamine hit from buying more things, whereas we used to get the dopamine hit taking the thing that we loved and cared about and had a story and had a memory around it and maybe was our grandmother’s and wearing that. I think we’re kind of replacing one thing with another form of satisfaction that is really… 

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:11:04] 

Lauren Bright: 

… form of satisfaction that is really pushed upon us, but you also see the slow fashion trend starting to really rise up in this space as well as kind of the counterbalance to what’s happening in fashion and ultra fast fashion. So I’m excited to see where that goes over time. But inherently, I would say that we are so nuanced as beings and the system is also so nuanced and it’s generally trying to drive us toward capitalistic tendencies, and yet we have these inherent desires for belonging and meaning, and it of course is leveraging those while we simultaneously seek to find them in other ways. And I think that level of access in combination with this desirability or need is sort of how the system has manifested in the way that it has today. 

Kate Young: 

And fast fashion also impacts the environment. It probably impacts our bodies by these poor synthetic fibers, what the clothes are made of. Why do you think there’s this urgent need to take action against this type of clothing? 

Lauren Bright: 

Oh my gosh, there’s so much to say about this, and I would say this is kind of where my career has evolved into in many ways, really looking at the toxicological impacts of what we’ve been producing, both from a human perspective, but also from an environmental perspective, and in general, like a broader ecological perspective. So I would say in terms of urgency, it’s really important to note that the fashion system really touches almost all aspects of planetary boundaries, and because of that, it’s very intersectional. And these planetary boundaries are… they inform and influence each other. One could create, if we overreach on one, which we have already done says the science, then that can have cascading effects. So the fashion system impacts climate change. Of course, we have an incredible amount of emissions associated with our manufacturing. It impacts land use change. So there’s a lot of deforestation, monocropping, oil extraction, et cetera, that are associated with the raw material phase of production for textile systems. 

It is part of disrupting biogeochemical flows which are the natural and cyclical pathways that transport and transform essential elements such as carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, water between living organisms to the non-living environment. So this has to do with in general nutrient flows and material flows, and we’ve been able to find in recent years in terms of fiber fragmentation and microfiber pollution that a lot of microfibers are disrupting soil microbial pathways which are essential to soil health which are essential to our food systems and our fiber systems. It’s incredible how all these things are interconnected. And then those biogeochemical flows are also associated with the carbon cycle, and the carbon cycle is also associated back to climate change and having carbon in the right carbon pools. And similarly, that’s connected to ocean acidification which is connected once again back to our climate. And then in terms of chemicals, there’s a huge impact of creating new and novel entities, which is another planetary boundary in terms of synthetic chemistries because they’re toxic, they’re persistent, they have largely consequential impacts depending on where they end up. 

I would say ignoring it as part of this larger system creates system-wide disruption that ultimately can make life here on earth uninhabitable, and that’s what it means at the systems level. But then we look at these poor quality clothing and their impact on our bodies, which we’re still studying, who even knows all of the impacts that that may cause down the line. It’s something the industry, I would say, for the last many years has been studying presence and pathways. So like how much is there, what is there, and how did it get there, and now we’re starting to go deeper into the science of what does it mean now that it is there, how is that impacting us, and that’s kind of the toxicology side. But aside from that in terms of plastic pollution, I just want to note that we also see this in fiber systems on natural materials because those natural materials are coated in chemistries that are also largely synthetic that have a bunch of consequences as well. 

So it’s very complex. I would also say aside from that, there’s a very different somatic experience in wearing plastics versus wearing naturally derived materials, and this goes back to this concept that humans co-evolved with these fiber systems over the course of many thousands, millions, I don’t even know how many, years. We were able to farm the fibers that best suited our specific needs, and it’s no coincidence that cotton which is an incredible material for being worn in warm weather climates is something that can exclusively grow in warm weather climates, and similarly for wool and the inherent performance properties that they have are really… I mean, they’re fascinating, honestly, and they’re also something that we strive to achieve in industry with synthetic fibers. 

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard a brand say when we were building our regenerative cotton coalition that I worked in, I heard a brand say, “Well, that’s interesting what you’re doing, but cotton isn’t innovative. We’re not going to focus on cotton as an innovative material.” Their minds have shifted about this dramatically, I can say, over the course of time, especially understanding cotton’s place in regenerative agriculture and in soil health and the carbon cycle and all of these things. But even just as a material itself, it’s actually something that we often try to replicate. So when we have polyester, we often texturize it. We add finishing chemistries that change its ability to wick water. We might add other performance chemistry. So yeah, it’s just interesting to me that we have this concept that it’s not innovative, yet everything we do is try to make a cheaper version of it. 

And then on top of that, a lot of the chemistries that have been used to create sort of these performance attributes are now known to be largely toxic, and they’re in our waterways, they’re in our soil systems, they’re in our blood, they’re in polar bear blood on the other side of the world. And these are the things that we now have to reckon with in terms of how we produce things moving forward, what we actually need to produce in terms of very targeted performance needs, and in general, how we can resolve some of the issues that we’ve caused from their historic production. 

Kate Young: 

And I’ve seen recent documentaries where, “Oh, I’ll just donate this when I’m done with it,” and there’s piles of T-shirts in the ocean floating. They don’t need it. They don’t want it. The effect on the environment is horrible. 

Lauren Bright: 

There’s a really amazing organization that has, I mean, gosh, I don’t even know, so many podcasts, so many resources now out and available. A lot of different small documentaries, et cetera, have been done with this organization, but they’re called the Or Foundation. It’s just O-R Foundation. And they’ve been working out of Accra, Ghana, and actually one of my projects was the first project to ever fund them after they had been working there for 10 years and working really hard to support the people of Accra as a community that is at the end of the line and highly impacted by waste colonialism. 

So what’s really interesting about the things that I think they bring up that are really, really important is that we often look at these countries in the global south that receive our waste and we go, “Oh, that’s really sad. Look at their waste problem,” when in all reality it’s our waste problem that we’ve exported to them. And we say, “Oh, boohoo, they don’t have infrastructure to support dealing with this waste. That’s why it’s polluted.” And it’s like, no, the reason that we exported it there is because we don’t have waste infrastructure to accommodate it, and if we kept all of the waste that we actually generated we would be in a very similar position and it would be very dire. 

A lot of these textiles have made their way out into the local oceans. It’s disrupted their fisheries, it’s disrupted their local markets, not even getting into bleaching and water quality. I mean, it’s just absolutely unfathomable to understand, and it’s also important to acknowledge that these are the highest functioning, I’ll say it that way, circular economies in the world. They process millions of products per year and they get little to no investment, whereas you look at businesses that are here on, we’ll just call it in the global north who are getting millions of dollars of investment and they’re going to process a million products in their first five years. 

It’s really interesting to see where the capital flows in terms of this system because there’s still a really large disconnect between the reality of the system in itself and how it’s inherently inequitable, and that’s why organizations like the Or Foundation have been very vocal in recent years, especially as the extended textile community is investing in policy and regulation that are centered around extended producer responsibility. So making it such that brands who produce things, who import them into countries, are also required to pay a certain amount that would then facilitate some sort of end-of-life recovery for those materials. And the Or Foundation, along with other organizations that I’m part of are really pushing for global extended producer responsibility, meaning that the money would flow where the textiles flow. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s dive into your time at Purdue. You were the first student at Purdue to mixed engineering and design together. So now it’s called visual design engineering, but you really have a background with multidisciplinary engineering. What does sustainability and fashion look like to you? 

Lauren Bright: 

Purdue was a really interesting experience for me. I was at some point either wanted to go to fashion school or design school, or I wanted to go to engineering school which for most people they’re like, “Okay, those things are very, very different from each other.” I’m so thankful for the program at Purdue because it allowed me to really explore the bounds of myself. It was very difficult, I might say, because with both anything in the arts as well as anything in engineering, the more time you dedicate to it, the better you are at that thing. Using both sides of my brain in such a way while I was there was absolutely exhausting. 

I remember speaking to my advisor, Chris Pekny, who I adore about this, and there were many times I think I showed up in Chris’s office with tears and I was like, “Oh, I didn’t get into this class. I have to remake my whole program.” And she really stuck with me. So I then studied abroad in Denmark for textile design, and it was there, it was Scandinavian textile design, and when I was there, that’s when I found out that the textile industry was one of the most polluting industries in the world. And one of our teachers there was a textile chemist. We had all these design- 

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:22:04] 

Lauren Bright: 

… and one of our teachers there was a textile chemist. We had all these designers as well. I mean, it was such an incredible program in general. The country of Denmark and Scandinavia at large really cares about sustainability. They care about the future of materials and progress and people. So it was something that was really formative. So then when I came back to Purdue, I was really, really fortunate that the program I was in was so flexible. I mean, to a certain degree, obviously. But it allowed me to come back and then take environmental and ecological engineering, like engineering projects and community service, all of these things that I felt like created this more holistic understanding of not textiles specifically, but just the intersection of the environment and industry and making. So that was really fascinating. 

And then when I graduated, I had no idea really how to explain that. It made a lot of sense to me. So I ended up taking a job at Chrysler. The first one that I took, they actually hired me because I had been a statistics TA while I was at Purdue. So the job was actually in what they call advanced supplier quality engineering. So I was going into the factories and doing what they call PFMEA, Process Failure Modes and Effects Analysis, which is also something that we talked about Purdue in my industrial engineering classes. So that was super helpful in getting me that initial job in the industry. We were basically trying to design out issues in production before they could occur. How do we think about all the ways that this could go wrong while we’re designing this process such that it doesn’t go wrong? 

I was really fortunate at Chrysler. They gave me a lot of opportunities to lead there. They knew that I was really interested in innovation, so I got to collaborate with the innovation team there. They knew that I was really interested in textiles, so they put me over interior systems. So I got to understand how soft goods intersect with hard goods. I think it was really informative, especially in terms of then going to an outdoor company, because I was then working for Columbia Sportswear where there was a huge focus on performance. 

My time at Columbia was really interesting because I did… The team was very small in comparison to most industry innovation teams. So I did anything from working with chemical manufacturers to develop new functional performance chemistries all the way through fiber, like yarn material and finished product design, both on designing the textile and the product itself towards a specific functional performance end, and then also on the side of developing or amending, however you would say it, updating equipment to be able to achieve that outcome. And then anything in between in terms of trying to test that in a real-life environment. So it was a very comprehensive job in terms of the way that I was able to integrate into industry and understand and learn by doing. But I think all of that was only possible because I had a very multidisciplinary background from the get-go, which was made possible to me through my time at Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. I love how interesting your career background is. I love that you talked about using both sides of your brain. You don’t normally have someone, like you said, that’s interested in design and engineering, but you made it work. That’s really cool. 

Also on the sustainability segment, we’ve talked about how it impacts our lives, the environment. What are a couple tips that you’ve developed? You’re so passionate about this topic. For anyone out there who’s trying to be more sustainable, even when ads are thrown our way or it’s kind of shoved in our face on social media, what are some practical tips that won’t break the bank, but will help us out when we’re looking for certain style pieces to elevate our wardrobe? 

Lauren Bright: 

I really love the concept that came out many years ago about a capsule collection wardrobe. I know people talk about this often on. I know people have tried to do it, and then eventually they buy more things over time, and maybe it’s not capsulated anymore. I think it’s really interesting. Of course, things have shifted, but when you look at the historic ways that Americans buy clothes versus Europeans, we always think that there’s sort of this elevated sense of style in Europe and whatever else is associated with that. 

I remember the first time that I went to Italy on a trip. I was thinking like, “Okay, I’m going to be here two to three weeks, but they have a lot of stairs. I’m going to be walking a lot. How do I make sure that I’m able to have outfits that really work for me?” That’s kind of where the capsule collection came in. It’s like, how do you make sure that there are pieces that are comfortable, that you love, that look great on your body, that work well with each other in different ways? How can you layer effectively with less pieces that then make it look like you have multiple outfits? That’s the thing that I think is probably most effective. 

I would also say that it’s just really important to recognize that textiles are the original form of craft. It’s ancient, right? They’re held close to our bodies. They are on our largest organ. So when we think about buying things that are less expensive to maybe hit a seasonal trend, the implications of that are actually vast in terms of how we feel with it on our bodies, not only how we feel about our purchase, but also sort of the long-term consequences. Because obviously if you understood that chemistries were toxic, you wouldn’t be putting them against your largest organ, which is a pathway potentially into your body. So I think that’s a really important aspect. 

I would also say I’m personally obsessed with buying secondhand. A lot of pieces, especially I live in Portland, Oregon, so we have a very good thrift scene here. I want to acknowledge that not all thrift scenes are the same, but there’s a culture of that here, which I think is really cool. People feel a big sense of pride in it. When you ask people where they got things, it’s like, “Oh, this is my favorite thrift store. We get in this section, and this is an heirloom piece that I would want to pass down to my daughter or whomever.” 

I also think there’s an opportunity. This is another thing that’s culturally really relevant, I would say, specifically here in Portland, but also generally on the West Coast, I’ve seen it a lot, but participating in this sort of trading and sharing culture. So there’s a lot of buy-nothing groups, so groups where people show up, and they’re like, “Hey, here are the things that I’m not likely to wear again or I don’t wear that often, but they’re still of good quality.” 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. I think, too, thrifting has become more popular with Gen Z. I’m a millennial personally. Again, in Indiana, I think the scene is a little bit different. But I feel like Gen Zs are very into and prideful about thrifting. So I love that you touched on that. 

I think wedding culture has really, really… Between the bachelorette parties and the rehearsal dinners and every event, you have to have something new and then the guests have to have something new. 

Lauren Bright: 

Oh, my gosh. Don’t even get me started on that. The fact that the wedding industry is an industry at all upsets me. So I totally understand that. 

Actually, a number of years ago, when I started my business, when I started my consultancy, I made a promise to myself that I wouldn’t buy any new clothing items at all for a year unless it came from a brand that I really, really, really deeply trusted or I thrifted it. And I ended up not buying anything at all for the year at all, which I was so proud of myself about. And then it was so interesting. There were two things that I noticed. One was that it got way easier over time. 

Kate Young: 

I bet. 

Lauren Bright: 

Another was that a lot of it was about dopamine. I found myself even… The reason I ended up not buying anything is because I went to brands that I trusted, and I went on their website. I was clicking through, and I would get to the end, and I would have all these things in my cart. And then I would wait and I would be like, “Okay, I’m going to click yes on this cart or confirm, whatever it says, tomorrow or I’ll come back in a few hours.” Without fail, every time when I came back in a few hours, I was like, “I don’t need it.” 

Kate Young: 

I don’t need this. 

Lauren Bright: 

I don’t need it. It was so weird. And that’s not the case today, but I did when I eventually bought something again. I bought a Reformation dress. The Reformation is a brand that I deeply respect. They’ve been a really big part of my personal journey in terms of my understanding of clothing and brands that I wanted to work for. And then at some point was very fortunate to be able to work with, and I consider them a close partner. I bought one dress from them, and I wore it to five weddings. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. 

Lauren Bright: 

Every time, people would be like, “Wow, that is so beautiful. It looks so good on you.” And I was just like, “Wow, you’re right.” Nobody noticed. Nobody cared. It was just a thing that I loved. And that dress is infamous in my friend circle. Everybody’s like, “So I have a wedding. What about that green dress?” 

Kate Young: 

That’s another thing. My group of friends, when it was peak late 20s, early 30s wedding season in life, we would share dresses like, “Hey, you want to wear this one?” Especially if you have different friend groups, nobody notices, nobody cares. So that was my little way of helping the sustainability crisis. 

Lauren Bright: 

Yeah, I think the culture of sharing is also a culture of community building, which is something that is also really special and something uniquely suited to the textile industry again in terms of its ability to create connections between people. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. Okay, tell us about your current role in Torus. 

Lauren Bright: 

So Torus is a collective action consultancy. I founded it because I was working in an industry at the time, and I was always, as I kind of noted earlier, this grassroots activist, and I noticed there were just a lot of barriers to adoption for the types of really meaningful work that I wanted to do within the brands. Of course, I’m not asking by saying that, I would not expect a mass exodus of the grassroots activists from the brands. We really need them in the brands. But what I realized is that there was a huge knowledge gap in terms of how products are made and then the people in sustainability or nonprofits or whatever who were trying to create the direction for the industry to go in. So there was pretty much no adoption on the in between. The industry was really working at a very incremental pace in terms of progress, glacial pace, some might say, and it’s still largely like that. 

But I think having a higher level of competency in terms of how things are made and deep empathy in terms of how decisions are made within a business then makes it possible for the organizations who hold a lot of knowledge across these sort of systems change platforms, are able to then integrate into these businesses and then execute on their- 

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:33:04] 

Lauren Bright: 

… able to then integrate into these businesses and then execute on their potential objectives. So my Collective Impact consultancy has generally had what I would call a fiscal sponsor. We’ve been partnering with nonprofits who have a vision or an idea. And I’ve basically just been building a bridge between those nonprofits, brands, innovators, municipalities, government agencies and in general, other rights holders to leverage that sort of collective knowledge, expertise, and infrastructure to move away from these theoretical concepts and really into implementation. 

And I would say that’s the thing that I personally love the most that I think is most important. I think there’s been a lot of talk in this industry for many years about what we could do and a lot of work in trying to measure and monitor. And there’s a big conversation now around what amount of measuring and monitoring is needed for us to actually have directionally-appropriate information that would allow us to start to implement things now. So I’m sort of on the side of the equation now, and this is highly debated, just want to say, but I’m on the side now, where I feel like we have, in a lot of ways, enough information to starting even if the data isn’t perfect. 

And notably, a lot of the data that the industry has been asking about or asking for or had been asked for in the last many years has to do with lifecycle analysis, which I’m going to guess is probably something that’s spoken about a lot at Purdue now in some of their programs, especially because environmental and ecological engineering really took off as a program within the university, which is really exciting. One of the things that is true about lifecycle analysis is that it’s limited in scope. And the reason that it’s limited, in my opinion, which is maybe not the most gracious interpretation, but it’s that we either measure the things that we know we can measure or we measure the things that we know make us look good. And what’s really interesting is making that specific statement to the head of the Biomimicry Institute many years ago is actually what got me my first ever contract as a consultant with Taurus. And it sort of led into one of my biggest projects, which is called the Nature of Fashion Design for Transformation. 

Of course, it wasn’t just myself that did this. Everything that I do is in collaboration with people way smarter than myself. They’re all brilliant. They all have such beautiful things to contribute. And I think the web and the intersectional way that we all think together always manifests into something that’s really powerful. So that turned into, as I noted, the Design for Transformation Initiative, which ended up having a series of global and interconnected pilots, two of them happening in Europe. So one in Berlin, another one in Rotterdam, one happening in Accra, Ghana with the organization that I mentioned earlier, the Or Foundation, and then a few different bodies of research that happened between the University of Leeds in the UK and also Yale’s Green Chemistry Department here in the US. 

We were basically just trying to understand more about this concept, like how would we start looking at materials differently? How do we make better chemical decisions knowing that there’s a biological reality for these materials and chemistries? What does it look like to take the most toxic textile waste that the industry is not trying to recycle because it kind of falls out of their recycling parameters and acknowledge that at one point it was just a basic chemistry that was part of the natural material flows of this world? So how do we get it back to that point? So something that is toxic then becomes part of the bio-economy again. And how can we do that leveraging existing infrastructure or easily scalable known infrastructure that’s exploited in a new way to push us towards those biological outcomes? 

And how can we do that sooner rather than later such that we don’t get into a technical gridlock that requires us to feed the beast with all these toxic materials that we’ve made historically, but is agile enough for the outputs to shift as hopefully the new materials in the future that come into the system are also shifting towards a healthier materials palette. So it was very complex. It was so hard. It was so beautiful and it was really powerful. I guess basically we were able to turn all of that into meaningful work that then allowed for further rounds of funding so they could scale that up. 

And then also we are granted a EPA grant. So the EPA portion has kind of shifted outside of what the Biomimicry Institute is hosting, but I am doing that project now through my consultancy, really leading that work to use biotechnology in the Carolinas, which is a historical textile manufacturing region in the US to do a bunch of very cool stuff. We’re basically recovering complex blended textile waste and returning it into the bio-economy through soil amendments, through agricultural textiles, through pharmaceuticals with one of the largest pharmaceutical manufacturers in the world, and also back into textiles themselves. So it’s very powerful, it’s very inspiring. Some of it is still very much conceptual, but the near-term reality is there and the infrastructure exists and the people are so excited and willing to do it. 

Kate Young: 

That’s incredible. What do you think the future of fashion, fashion sustainability holds and what are people like you, the innovators doing to take steps to change consumer behavior? 

Lauren Bright: 

Yeah, I think social media is actually doing a lot of work for us. The level of exposure that is, and thus risk for big brands or small brand, any kind of brands, any manufacturer that’s accessible to people now is historically really unheard of. So I think that, in and of itself, has precipitated so much change in the industry. And I know there’s been an incredible amount of work in the industry around water access and water rights. Of course, the textile industry uses a lot of water, so you’ve seen a lot of investments in that space. You’ve seen governments coming together. There have been organizations like Greenpeace who put out reports on the toxicity of PFAS chemistries used in textiles that created a lot of change in the industry. 

There are a lot of nonprofits that focus on different aspects of the supply chain. Some focus on collective de-carbonization, so how can we get a lot of brands together in a specific factory or in a specific region to enable the future of renewable energy in that region or other carbon emissions related projects. This work around renewable energy and electrification, a lot of it’s happening individually at brands, but there’s an organization called the Apparel Impact Institute that’s facilitating that on behalf of brands and doing a lot of partnership with outdoor brands and the Outdoor Industry Association to do that. There’s another organization called Textile Exchange that does a lot at the raw material stage. They do a lot in setting standards, so brands can basically have their supply chains verified through these standards that hold them to a higher level of accountability and assurance in terms of what’s happening all the way back to raw material extraction. 

And then you have sort of this global network of organizations that have arisen out of industry need to tackle specific scopes of work. And like I said, I mentioned some of them, but there are other ones like Blue Sign or ZDHC. And then you have a number of organizations who are also popping up on the very front end of materials design and development. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you so much, Lauren. It was a pleasure. And if you want to learn more about Lauren, about her company, you can reference our show notes. 

So thanks again, Lauren. 

Lauren Bright: 

Yeah, thank you so much, Kate, for having me. 

Kate Young: 

That conversation with Lauren really got my wheels turning. Between the dopamine hits from buying things to looking more into the thrifting scene, I learned a lot from her insights. We linked more information about Lauren’s company, Taurus, and other resources she discussed in this episode in our show notes, so be sure to check that out. And if you want to watch additional bonus content from this interview, like Lauren’s take on The Devil Wears Prada 2 movie and who actually decides what’s in style, head over to our YouTube page, youtube.com/ThisIsPurdue and hit that subscribe button while you’re over there. Plus, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshi. 

Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@/ThisIsPurdue. 

And as always, Boiler Up. 

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [00:42:51]

Krystal Hans: This is Krystal Hans, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue. 

Kate Young: Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Krystal Hans: We have what’s called the CSI effect, and it’s from living in this world with all of this exposure to what we think forensic science and investigation looks like. The reality is that if you have a group of people selected to be jurors in a trial and they come in with these preconceived notions of, “Okay, I’ve seen it on TV,” or “I’ve listened to podcasts, I know what to expect,” they get into the courtroom and they are disappointed. It’s not nearly as exciting as what they show on Law and Order. They’re expecting that every case, every scene has DNA evidence, has fingerprints, has all of these different components and so then that disappointment can affect their decisions that they’re making so it can have a pretty significant effect in the real world. 

Kate Young: In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Krystal Hans, Director of Forensic Science and Assistant Professor of Forensic Entomology at Purdue University’s College of Agriculture. 

Now, if I had to guess, I’m assuming most of you out there have listened to a true-crime podcast series or watched some type of a real life cold case investigation documentary. In today’s day and age, these stories have been embedded into our culture through all different forms of media. And just before this interview, Krystal and I were talking about different true crime cases that really caught our attention growing up. For me, it was the unsolved killing of JonBenet Ramsey in Colorado and the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart from her home in Utah. Both were young girls who were around my age, and I vividly remember the headlines splashed everywhere when these horrible crimes were committed. Since then, the public’s fascination with true crime has only grown. 

In this interview, Krystal is digging into what this true crime culture gets wrong about forensic science and cold cases and how she intentionally works to center education, empathy, and advocacy when it comes to solving cases and helping victims’ families. Krystal has a passion for engaging students, especially in her popular forensic investigation class at Purdue, where students have the opportunity to research real life cold cases. That’s right, we’re digging into cases where boilermakers have made true impacts right here in Indiana. From talking to police, researching old case files and more, Krystal is explaining her overall goal of reframing how her students think about these victims and their loved ones. And as the only board certified forensic entomologist in the Midwest, Krystal is explaining how insects affect crime investigations and cold cases. I guarantee you’ll learn a thing or two in today’s episode. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Krystal. 

Krystal, thank you so much for joining us on This Is Purdue. We were talking earlier, everyone on our team is so excited for this episode. I know our listeners are going to love this as well. Let’s get to it. Society’s obsession with true crime has really peaked in recent years with social media, with Netflix documentaries, with true-crime podcasts. Where do you think this interest really comes from? 

Krystal Hans: I think it’s been an interest for a long time. I think we’re at a point in our society that we have access to so much information and it’s so easy to spread that information through social media. And we have all of these different media tools that are really fostering that kind of innate interests that people have in crime, interest that they have in death and in some of the horrible things that happen in our society. 

Kate Young: Why do you think this type of popular media can affect real life investigations? Have you seen this happen? 

Krystal Hans: We see this happen pretty frequently where people listen to a podcast, they have an idea of this is how an investigation works. These are the types of evidence that we would expect. And then when law enforcement doesn’t report everything that they do, they’re not communicating their findings, they’re keeping things kind of close to the investigation, people are sometimes disappointed and frustrated because they don’t see the same kind of movement or resolution. Podcasts always try to focus on success stories and seeing that resolution, people are sometimes disappointed when they don’t see it play out in the real world. 

Kate Young: So how does the public interest in true crime impact your work as a forensic entomology professor? 

Krystal Hans: In terms of forensic entomology, that’s one of those niche areas in forensic science where people sometimes are familiar that there’s insects involved, but they don’t necessarily understand the role that they can play as a type of physical evidence. By having access to podcasts and crime dramas and going back to the early 2000s with CSI, being that early show, kind of a front-runner, it started to give the public a little bit of insight into some of these niche areas and other ways that we can provide a service. So I think it’s beneficial for me because it exposes people and at least gets them, “Oh, I’ve heard that term before.” 

Kate Young: Let’s dive into it. Tell our listeners, how do insects impact some of these crime scenes and cases? 

Krystal Hans: Forensic entomology is the use of insects as a type of evidence for different types of investigations. And we can use insects for a variety of different applications. We can use them in an urban setting. So we think about infestations. Bedbugs have been in the news pretty frequently, cockroach infestations. It could be something where there’s a lawsuit, somebody wants to sue their landlord, we can use information about those insects to support or refute that lawsuit. More traditionally, forensic entomology is often used in cases of abuse and neglect or in death investigations of both animals and humans. And so our insects, our forensically relevant insects are really well adapted to be able to smell very strong odors of decomposition. They arrive relatively quickly after death. And as a forensic entomologist, I can collect those insects, determine what type of species it is, figure out how old they are and how long they’ve been associated with the body, and that gives us an estimate of the minimum amount of time that the insects have been active. 

Kate Young: So that can help determine how long potentially the body has been there? 

Krystal Hans: Absolutely. So for an investigation, that can speak to the timeline that law enforcement is looking for. 

Kate Young: Was there a specific high profile case that sparked your interest in forensic science when you were younger? 

Krystal Hans: So we had already mentioned a few of the cases that were popular when we were younger, but for me, my entry into forensic science wasn’t because I saw a case or because I watched CSI or any of those shows. I always tell people that I was a weird kid and my nickname was Creepy Krystal, which I’ve turned into a career and I’ve come to embrace, but as a kid, I think I was a little bit hurt that people thought I was creepy. And so I’m allergic to animals that have fur and feathers, so I’ve never had a traditional pet. But my mom was always very supportive of my love of insects and arthropods, and I got into the habit of collecting them and bringing them inside for short periods of time to have pets. I just kind of always had a fascination wandering around, trying to find insects, and there’s a lot of insect activity on animal carcasses that you come across in the woods. 

So that association, people found a little bit creepy that I was interested in things like maggots. And then when I was in my undergrad, I had a completely different career path. I thought I was going to go to medical school. I was interested in science and my advisor said, “You have two options. You can become a science teacher or you can go to medical school and become a medical doctor.” And back then I said, “Oh, well, I don’t think I want to go into teaching,” which is ironic considering my position now. And so I went along the path of medical school, and it wasn’t until my senior year that I went to a seminar where a medical examiner talked about maggots being on remains at autopsy. And I went up and approached him. I said, “Tell me more about maggots.” His response was, “Ugh, you like maggots?” 

Kate Young: He probably normally didn’t get that. 

Krystal Hans: Yeah, most people don’t have that reaction. And he said, “Forensic entomology, that’s the field that you should be looking into.” And that was a new area for me. Nobody had told me that along my path. And so it really changed my entire trajectory and got me into this field. 

Kate Young: And what brought you to Purdue? 

Krystal Hans: Oh, I mean, Purdue has such a long history in our entomology department being one of the oldest departments. I mean, it was a very easy decision for me to make to come and be a part of this fantastic department. 

Kate Young: So we talked about CSI, you think of Law and Order, there’s so many spinoffs of these shows. What makes real life forensic scientists like yourself different from the public’s perception? How are TV shows different from real life? 

Krystal Hans: Yeah, I always tell my students, because that’s usually their perception of forensic scientists or the world of investigation. And what they see on TV is a much more dramatic and glamorized version. So on TV, they show the forensic scientists doing everything, going to the scene, they’re back in the lab, they’re analyzing, they’re talking to suspects, they’re getting search warrants. They confuse the roles of a lot of different people. On TV, they would show somebody in a suit at a crime scene with no gloves and no protective gear collecting evidence. And then when the students learn about what does it really look like and what are the precautions that we take and how are these different roles divided? I think sometimes they’re disappointed when I explain the timelines for investigations. I have cases that I work on that they don’t get neatly packaged and resolved within a short time like they show on TV. And sometimes it’s years before it goes to trial, if it does go to trial. So I think there’s sometimes that disappointment when they learn how it actually plays out in the real world. 

Kate Young: I was telling you before this, I just watched the Elizabeth Smart documentary on Netflix. I believe it took 10 years. They caught the man who kidnapped her and it took that long to go to trial. So that was spread out that long, that the emotions that she had and having to go to trial and testify and everything, the fact that the system takes that long, it’s not like TV or movies. 

Krystal Hans: That’s one case that actually did see resolution. There’s a lot of cases that unfortunately don’t even get to that point. 

Kate Young: So let’s get into your class. Your class has grown to over 200 students, that’s incredible. And like I said at the beginning, students are working on multiple real life cold cases. They’re gathering research and information, whether it’s unsolved, missing person cases, homicide cases. You and I talked before, this is generally for victims of communities that unfortunately don’t receive a lot of media attention, but at the end of the semester, these students can really make a difference and an impact on these cases because the materials are sent onto the families of the victims. So it’s really hands-on. So tell us a little bit about how the class is structured and why you think it’s gained so much popularity. 

Krystal Hans: This class, I’ve been teaching it five years now. And when I first was offered this class to teach, I was trying to think about what can we do to train our students in different techniques and investigation, whether they plan to pursue a career in forensic science, law enforcement, or something else? What are the tools that we can provide to make them successful wherever they end up? And I started to think about there’s an opportunity here for students to play a role in this cold case world. And again, building on that podcast and all of this exposure that they get, there’s a lot of interest for students to participate. I actually had a student that was in one of my classes who is a survivor and her family member was a victim of a violent homicide. And in talking with her about advocacy and what she did to support her sister’s case, I started to think about, well, how can undergraduates contribute to that mission? What can we do? 

And so that really led to me developing this project that tries to serve the families of these unresolved homicides and missing person cases and try to show that there’s a lot of collective impact that we can do even as undergraduate students in a class. And so the way that I’ve designed this project is I’ve partnered with Project: Cold Case, who’s my partner for a lot of different cold case missions that I’m sure we’re going to talk about, and working with the families that are interested in having their loved one’s case research. I train the students throughout the semester about how to locate publicly available information, how to file records requests, how to try to communicate with law enforcement to request a meeting or request documents or get some questions answered. 

And then what we try to do for the families is we try to focus on the visual elements in creating social media awareness campaigns. So my students create three different types of social media visuals that can be shared on different platforms. They create an infographic to summarize the case. And then at the end of the semester, they provide a presentation to explain to the rest of the class, “Here’s what we did, here are the challenges that we faced, and then here’s the results of all of our work.” And so the families, they get access to all of that information and it’s up to them if they want to share it. It’s their choice. 

Kate Young: Because I imagine sometimes digging into that stuff either brings up past trauma or they don’t fully maybe understand it, we talked about maybe some of the people are older and don’t fully understand social media. So these students are handing them this package, if you want to post this, here’s how you do it. So that’s just a really interesting way to handle that and make an impact. 

Krystal Hans: And for some of the families, they don’t have access to some of the information or the students have recovered a list of names of people that they think might be associated. And the families, they respond with, “Oh, I don’t know who these people are, these are additional things that I want to bring up when I have my meeting with our detective.” Or, “We get access to case files,” and the family never got access to those. So being able to provide them with something tangible. And I always tell the families, “If nothing else, there’s no obligation, you don’t have to respond, you don’t have to use anything, but if nothing else, just know that there’s a group of people at Purdue that are thinking about your loved one.” 

Kate Young: What do you think that value is to have students working on real life cases? 

Krystal Hans: Different cases have impact for different people based on relatability. And so for some of my students, they get to choose the case from a curated list that’s provided. And some of them, they say, “Oh, we chose this case because this victim is our age. This victim was a student. This victim is from my hometown.” Or, “I remember hearing about this case, but I didn’t really learn about a lot of the information.” So I think for the students, they’re able to see that these are real people. And I always try to stress, again, going back to those podcasts and the shows, sometimes the information that gets kind of sensationalized is focus on the perpetrator, focus on the violent nature of the crime, not that there’s a whole family of people that cared about that individual. And so trying to reframe how my students perceive forensic science, how they communicate about the victim, making sure that they’re using victim-centered language. 

And I think that if nothing else, I want them to go out into the world with a more empathetic viewpoint of what these crimes can do and all of the people that are impacted by that. 

Kate Young: I want to dig into that shift of the perspective of focusing on that real human element and that victim-centered language. I think certain documentaries or podcasts do a good job of talking about the victim and remembering who they were and others really sensationalize the perpetrator. And the Elizabeth Smart documentary, it’s just top of mind because I just watched it, they really didn’t talk about the person who did it. They really focused on her and her family and her story, and I think that was purposeful. Talk about why that’s a good lesson for the students to approach it that way. 

Krystal Hans: It makes them kind of see the human element that’s involved. A lot of my students come in and one of the first questions I asked the beginning of the semester, “How many people can name a serial killer?” Almost everybody’s hands go up and they can rattle off a whole slew of them. And I say, “Well, how many people can name a victim of any of those serial killers?” And they say, “Oh,” that really starts that conversation about how our society frames and approaches a lot of these investigations and what types of material get released and what people have access to. So again, just trying to make sure that my students are thinking about that human impact so that if they go into law enforcement, forensic science, social work, advocacy, they’re at least thinking back to this experience and they’ve learned that there’s a better approach that we can do. 

Kate Young: So what lessons do your students usually walk away with from your class? 

Krystal Hans: I think one of the biggest things, students say, “Okay, we’re going to work on this case. I want you to look for as much information as possible.” And sometimes they’re under this assumption that, “Well, I’ll just Google it and I’ll get access to everything.” And they’ll say, “I’ll just ask for the case file and law enforcement’s going to give me everything I want, the scene photos, all of the reports.” And I think the students are often disappointed when they can’t easily access this information and they have to learn about other channels and other mechanisms that they can use. And when law enforcement says, “Unfortunately, this is an active investigation and we can’t provide you with the file,” the students are like, “But I thought I would easily be able to get this. What do you mean I can’t have access to this?” 

And so what that does is when we talk about those challenges, I put it in the perspective of, “Okay, now imagine you’re a loved one and this is your family member and you’re trying to get information and you’re trying to meet with law enforcement, you’re trying to get these files and they say, “No, we can’t share that with you.” How do you feel at that point?” And so I think it really helps the students to understand how it works in the real world. And some of those challenges I think are good lessons that they can’t just easily access everything just from their phone. 

Kate Young: Are there any well-known Indiana cold case investigations that your students have worked on and contributed to? 

Krystal Hans: There’s one in particular that I think was a really powerful case and very obvious impact. So when I first started this project, I had an incredible student, Brayden Johnson, and I explained the project, explained what the purpose was. We were focusing on Indiana cases and I had this list and he came up to me at the end of class and he said, “There’s one particular case, would our team be able to work on it?” And I said, “Well, let me know a little bit more information.” And he said, “Well, it’s my wife’s great aunt.” And I said, “If you can get permission and consent from the family, absolutely, then we can have you work on that for the semester.” So he showed up to the next class with a binder full of newspaper clippings, notes that the family had taken, basically all of their information. He said, “Here’s the consent, here’s the permission.” 

And so because we had that permission, Brayden was able to work with his team for the duration of the semester, completing all of the assignments, but really going above and beyond. Janet Shirar was a school teacher in Kokomo who was violently killed in May of 1980. And there had been a suspect at the time, somebody that she was friends with that was supposed to be visiting for the weekend and the investigation just really kind of stalled out. There was no real progress. There had been some evidence that had been recovered inside of her home. She had been stabbed multiple times. There was a knife that had been cleaned off. One of her outfits that she wore pretty frequently was missing from her closet and she was found in her bathroom. 

Over the years, the family tried to pressure law enforcement to make some movement on this case and just didn’t really seem to go anywhere. Now in 2016, a chair from Janet’s apartment had been tested because there was blood evidence that was found on it, but the results were never made clear to the family and there was no more discussion about it. And so when Brayden and his team started to work on this, they started to put together all of this very tangled web of people that are associated with Janet’s case and tried to make an association of who could be involved and why was there not more media coverage about this and why did it just kind of fall to the wayside? 

And so Brayden was actually able to set up several meetings with the detective who was on the case, be able to go through the case and ask about certain key pieces of evidence, follow up about that chair, what were the results of that? Here are the people that we think are of interest. And the detective was able to provide additional answers about the case. And then because of those discussions and because of all of the work that the students had performed, the detective was able to follow up with that person of interest and question her and get additional information. 

What came from all of that, so Brayden did incredible work, the whole team did. The detective had confirmed, we believe that this is the person who committed this crime. There had been fingerprint evidence that had been recovered from Janet’s home. They had identified that this woman had been in the house and she said that she had been visiting. Unfortunately, the fingerprints that were recovered from the chair, they weren’t able to make an association, that those were her bloody fingerprints. So for the family, they feel that they’ve made progress. They have identified somebody that they’re almost certain has committed this crime. But unfortunately, sometimes what we see in these cold cases is that lack of evidence is the reason why we can’t get resolution. 

His work was really powerful. And again, having that case that he was connected to, so personally, married into the family and connected to, made it a lot more compelling for him and his team to work on. And I actually invited him to speak at the Cold Case Symposium in 2023 to share the power of student work and kind of hopefully inspire some of the other undergraduates of, this is what you can do. This is the collective impact that you can have. 

Kate Young: Have any of these cases influenced you personally throughout the years? 

Krystal Hans: Oh, I mean, I think they all do. I think I try to bring that to the classroom with my students, and I’m very transparent about the emotional impact of the work and the emotional impact of forensic science. And so I’m intentional with what’s called trauma-informed pedagogy. So making sure that we’re incorporating a lot of these themes of, there is a lot of trauma when we’re talking about violent crimes, whether you’re a student learning about it or you’re a professional that’s working and living in this world, whether you think it’s going to affect you or not, this really does kind of shape our emotional impact along the way. And so I’m very intentional with students to explain, these are my thoughts about this and these are real people. These are families that I communicate with regularly. The responses that I get from families, I think that’s when I really … It hits me the hardest. 

Kate Young: And even like you said, if you’re not putting a bow on it and tying it up and that’s that, if there are some answers or some type of, “Wow, this is a new list of names that we didn’t know about,” I mean, some answers are better than none at the end of the day, and I’m sure they’re so appreciative. 

Krystal Hans: And again, for the families, just knowing that somebody’s thinking about them, that their loved one hasn’t been forgotten, I think that that has a lot of power. 

Kate Young: So you lead your own forensic entomology lab at Purdue and you mentor undergraduate and graduate students and experiments. What are you guys currently working on within that lab? 

Krystal Hans: We work on a lot of different applications of forensic entomology. A lot of the questions that we have are based on real world experiences that I have from cases. So I’ll get called to a scene, I’m collecting evidence, it’s usually an unusual circumstance, and law enforcement will say, how does this affect the insects? And I’ll say, “That’s a great question. Let’s research that.” And so a lot of our questions come from my own personal experience. 

So we had a student a few years ago, I was at a scene and the remains were concealed and law enforcement said, “Oh, we had a body that was in concrete. How would that affect it?” And I said, “Ugh, I don’t know. Let’s do that project.” So we did a decomposition project over a six-month period so that we can answer law enforcement’s questions so that the next time I get approached about that, or if I got a case related to that, I would have some information about how that affects our insects and how it affects decomposition. So we look at factors that affect decomposition, we look at insect behavior and how that can change with environmental parameters. So a lot of the behavior of our insects is driven by the environment that they’re in. 

And then recently we’ve moved into what’s called archeoentomology. That’s an area where we’re applying the information about insects that are recovered from historic grave sites. And so we have some that are from 1770s and we have some that are 3,000 years old. So we’re able to provide some analysis of those insect, it’s usually fragments at that point, to answer questions about the time of year that the remains were buried, when they were interred, or about the environment itself, so different types of insects that are associated with different environments. So we’re trying to kind of expand those different applications, how we can use insects in lots of different areas. 

Kate Young: Is there a benefit to centering your research here in the Midwest with the entomology angle? 

Krystal Hans: Being housed in an entomology department is a really big benefit for me, having access to so many colleagues with so many different specialties. And so one in particular, our insect diagnostician, we sometimes have these tiny insect fragments and we can say, “Hey, do you have any ideas of what we should be looking for? We think this is a part of a beetle. Can you help us?” And he’ll be like, “Oh, check this out.” And he’ll provide resources for us. So I think having access to so many different experts in entomology is a huge benefit. But in terms of the kind of casework and access to that, the Midwest has a lot of opportunities. So I’m the only board certified forensic entomologist in the Midwest, so I get contacted from all different surrounding states. So I think it’s been a really great opportunity to be able to really expand my network and help as many different agencies as possible. 

Kate Young: How is Hans Forensics driving progress in this field? Sounds like you are working on all different types of cases. What strides do you hope to make in the future too? 

Krystal Hans: One of the areas that I’ve recently been trying to train different investigators in, so I train law enforcement across the country, and a lot of them are traditional investigators, so going back to those death investigations and how we can use insect evidence, but there’s also a really big need in the veterinary forensic science world. So a lot of the crimes that are committed against animals, so whether it’s abuse, neglect, or death of an animal, we can use the same principles of forensic entomology to answer those questions as well. And so what we’ve been trying to do over the last couple of years is focus on animal investigators, focus on fish and wildlife and be able to offer our services and explain, here’s another tool that you might want to consider, and here’s how forensic entomology can help your investigations as well. And so we’ve really been able to expand that network and hopefully convince some veterinary forensic scientists that this is a tool that they can kind of call on. 

Kate Young: We talked a little bit about the Cold Case Symposium. Every other year it is held at Purdue, and in this fall it’s going to take place at Purdue again. Tell us a little bit about this event and how it came about. 

Krystal Hans: The Cold Case Symposium, the idea started in 2022, going back to the conversation that I had with a student who’s a survivor. I was thinking about the families and thinking about access that they have to resources. I’ve attended a lot of cold case trainings and other events, and they’re almost always for law enforcement or forensic professionals, and the families are historically excluded from that. And I wanted to really offer something that was specifically for those families, so that, again, they knew that there’s a community of people that care, that their loved one’s story matters, and that we want to share that. The first one was in Arizona in 2022, and I brought that student along with me so she could share her sister’s story. And we actually had all survivors that spoke that very first event. So all of them were family members that had a missing or unresolved homicide case. 

What we tried to do was offer a unique opportunity where we could bring together the families, the advocates, showcase some of the resources that they have access to, as well as welcome law enforcement and forensic professionals, and then also being mindful of students and academics and sharing the work that students do and how they can contribute to this world. So from that first event, the feedback that we got, especially from the survivors and the families, was so positive that we said, “Okay, we have to host this every year.” That first event, I had invited Ryan Backmann from Project: Cold Case to speak and share his story as a survivor who started this incredible organization that now supports almost 2,000 families across the US and tries to offer a lot of resources that are much needed in this space. After he shared his story, I realized this is an organization that I would love to partner with to be able to plan these future events. 

And so that’s what we’ve done. The last four years we have partnered and brought this symposium to different locations. So to Purdue in 2023, Jacksonville, Florida, which is where Project: Cold Case is based out of in 2024. And in 2024, we expanded it to two days because we had so many speakers and so many resources and just so many things that we wanted to be able to offer for these families. And I think one of the things that Ryan and I are both really proud of in doing this work is that a couple years ago we had US flags flown over the Capitol in honor of the missing and murdered. And at the end of each of the cold case symposium days, we have what’s called the Survivor’s Platform, where we ask any survivors in the audience if they’re comfortable, if they want to come up and share about their loved one, tell us who they are as a person, they share their story and then we present them with this flag in honor of their loved one. 

And so we’ve been able to do that the last couple of years. And I think it’s a really powerful statement that again, we are thinking about your loved one, we are all thinking about them and just knowing that they have a community of support and that’s really what we’ve been trying to focus on. 

Kate Young: There’s also that community aspect for families to share that empathy with other families. And sometimes if you go through something like that, you can only relate to someone else who’s gone through something like that, right? 

Krystal Hans: Absolutely. And that’s some of the feedback that we hear from the families is they had an opportunity to meet other families in the same situation and discuss similar or different challenges that they’ve had or learn from others’ experiences. And it maybe triggers something where they’re like, “Maybe we should ask our detective about this.” I think there’s a lot of impact in bringing all of those different people together. 

Kate Young: What can we expect this fall at Purdue? 

Krystal Hans: Well, it’s a little bit early now, but we’re hoping to host it in October here at Purdue, still planning on the two days. And we think that we’re maybe going to include some kind of a workshop element that can focus on media involvement with families. And so going back to these podcasts and the true crime world, some of the interactions that these families have with media can sometimes be very negative. And it’s not necessarily intentional on the reporter’s side or on the podcaster side, they just don’t know how best to approach some of these questions or the language to use to frame it. And so being intentional and not re-traumatizing these family members just to exploit their story for a podcast or an article. So we think that we want to incorporate some kind of a workshop element to train people that are in media or students that are thinking they want to work in this world, how can you best approach it and how should you be communicating these questions and thinking about these stories? 

Kate Young: So we started at the top talking about people’s fascination with true crime. And then of course we have all these Instagram sleuths, Reddit, TikTok, they’re kind of being detectives from their couch. How have you seen this shape real life cases? 

Krystal Hans: We have what’s called the CSI effect, and it’s from living in this world with all of this exposure to what we think forensic science and investigation looks like. The reality is that if you have a group of people selected to be jurors in a trial and they come in with these preconceived notions of, “Okay, I’ve seen it on TV or I’ve listened to podcasts, I know what to expect.” They get into the courtroom and they are disappointed. It’s not nearly as exciting as what they show on Law & Order. And then they’re expecting that every case, every scene has DNA evidence, has fingerprints, has all of these different components. 

Kate Young: And it’s open and shut. 

Krystal Hans: Yes, yes. And they’re looking for, “Okay, well, if they didn’t have fingerprints, then law enforcement didn’t do their job.” And so then that disappointment can affect their decisions that they’re making. So it can have a pretty significant effect in the real world. 

Kate Young: On the other hand though, we’ve seen different documentaries and different cases where the public has helped or thousands of tips have come in, I’m thinking of the Amy Bradley documentary on Netflix where she went missing from a cruise ship years and years ago and that new documentary on Netflix, now there’s thousands of new tips. I don’t know if any of that will amount to anything, but what do you think of the positives that also come from this? 

Krystal Hans: We always hear this phrase, a fresh set of eyes. And so having that public interest and having these citizen detectives that want to take the time to go through all of these documents and watch these videos and try to piece this together that can have some impact. And again, if they’re able to generate leads and find information, that’s fantastic for the investigation. There’s a lot of positive as well. 

Kate Young: So it all comes back to the education, the empathy, the advocacy that you center your work around for your students too. Why is that more effective when it comes to solving cases and helping victims’ families? 

Krystal Hans: My intention with that, again, is to make my students understand that in the real world, there are a lot of people that are impacted by these crimes. And in the symposium, we have law enforcement that speaks about how these cases impact them and what the emotional weight of this work is. And I think when the students experience that, they know that what they’re doing in the classroom is having an impact in the real world that somebody outside of the instructor who’s grading their material, these families are going to get access to this. I think it makes them more committed to the work. They understand that what they’re doing in the classroom goes beyond the class, goes beyond Purdue, and is going out into the world and is going to affect somebody. And so I think it makes them more dedicated researchers. I think it makes them more empathetic humans. That’s my goal is just to make sure that they understand the human element of this work. 

Kate Young: For those who can’t take your class, our listeners, our viewers, what are some practical ways that the public can practice empathy and ethical advocacy? 

Krystal Hans: I think it starts by the true crime content that you consume, do a little bit of research into the background of the podcasters. If you hear something where there’s crude jokes that are made about the victim, offhanded comments, don’t continue to consume that content if they’re disrespectful to the victims and to the families. And some of the docuseries that are made, they don’t get consent from the families to be able to share that. And so I think just being intentional with what we’re consuming is a great way to start. I think if you’re interested in really sharing, social media is so powerful. So if you see a poster about somebody who’s missing or an unresolved case, it takes two seconds for you to share that poster on social media, share it on your platforms because you never know who will get access to that, that might know information that can lead to a tip or a new lead. Something so simple as just sharing on social media does a lot to help that case, and again, to highlight to the families that somebody is thinking of your loved one. 

Kate Young: Any empathetic or ethical true-crime books, podcasts, content that you recommend to anyone out there that really want to dig into this? 

Krystal Hans: Oh, I have to say, I think one of the most well-produced and kind of forensically sound podcasts that I’ve listened to is Bear Brook. It’s about a case in Bear Brook State Park in New Hampshire, I believe. And there was a big 55 gallon drum that was found that had two sets of remains in it, and then 15 years later, another one that’s found in the same park. And so through the podcast, they’re able to explain the forensic science side of that, how to identify these individuals, how to determine that they were related. So it was a woman and three children and kind of piece together the science and also all of the people that were involved. And for that case, there was resolution. They were able to identify the perpetrator that had committed those crimes. And I just think that that podcast does a great job at the storytelling element, but also being respectful and really showcasing the science behind it. 

Kate Young: Well, I could keep you here all day, I won’t do that. Is there anything else that I missed that you want to share with our audience? 

Krystal Hans: I would say if there’s anybody that’s in the Lafayette or Indiana area that’s interested in attending our symposium, it is open to everybody. You do not have to be a student. You do not have to be in the forensics community. We want to get as many community members involved. And so as soon as we have those dates and advertisements, I’ll be sharing that. It’s open to anyone and we’d encourage you if this is something that you want to learn more about and you want to find a way that you can contribute, then please come to our symposium. 

Kate Young: We’ll link that in our show notes for our listeners too. 

Krystal Hans: Thank you. 

Kate Young: Well, Krystal, it was a total pleasure. Thank you so much. 

Krystal Hans: Oh, thanks for having me. 

Kate Young: Krystal is such an interesting person and a wonderful hands-on professor, it’s no surprise that her forensic investigation class continues to grow year after year. We linked more information about Project: Cold Case in our show notes for you, so be sure to check that out if you’re interested. And if you want to watch our full video interview with Krystal in our podcast studio, head over to youtube.com/thisispurdue and hit that subscribe button while you’re there. Plus, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you love this episode, leave us a review. We’d love to hear your feedback. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone in collaboration with Jon Garcia, Zach Mogensen, and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshe, and our creative production manager is Dalani Young. 

Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youTube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler Up!

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps toward their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Hi everyone. I’m Kate Young. Thanks for tuning in. I’m a proud boilermaker alumna and host of This Is Purdue. We’re coming to you live from the Indianapolis International Airport today where thousands of people across the country are coming in for the NCAA Men’s Final Four. I have two wonderful guests with me today. We have Ken Halpin and Julie Roe Lach. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

We are going to talk all about how Indy is the place to host these amazing sports events. So first, Julie, thank you so much for joining us. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Thank you. It’s good to be here. 

Kate Young: 

So you are the executive vice president of external relations and community engagement for Pacers Sports & Entertainment. You’ve worked in college athletics for over 25 years, so we’re excited to get your take on everything about how the Final Four impacts student athletes, the local community, sports fans. 

And then Ken, I know you from Purdue. Thank you for joining us. 

Ken Halpin: 

Yeah, it’s great to be here. 

Kate Young: 

So you get to experience Purdue’s unique culture firsthand every day. We’re going to talk about our basketball program. We’ve had so many record-breaking things happen, so we’re going to get into that. I got my Fletcher Lawyer shirt here. 

So let’s kick it off. This is an exciting moment for us here in Indiana. Julie, what does this Final Four mean to us as a city? 

Julie Roe Lach: 

I mean, it’s incredible. You can feel the buzz here. So this is the ninth Final Four on the men’s side for our city. And just even looking at the numbers. So we hosted all of March Madness in 2021, but it was under the pandemic, right? So when we look at the economic impact going back to 2015, it was like 70 million or so. 

This year they’re projecting $400 million in economic impact. That alone is significant. But I think more importantly, these mega events are unifiers. We now have engaged the arts scene and there’s an entire effort called SWISH where we’ve got a lot of performances happening. And the point is, I think the NCAA, the Sports Corp, all of our partners have done a great job of making available free opportunities, whether it’s the fan fest or the concerts. My kids were talking last night about who the concert lineup is because they couldn’t believe that you can see these three big acts all in one day or two days. So it is such a fun time and a unifying time for our city. 

Kate Young: 

Ken, you know Indy is home to our Purdue’s urban campus. What do you think this means for college basketball fans overall? 

Ken Halpin: 

Well, being close to Indianapolis for Purdue and for the importance and the success historically of our athletic department, access to Indianapolis is immense. Simply because Indianapolis, I don’t know of a city that takes more seriously the commitment to using sport to drive economic impact. And to be frank, right now, Indianapolis, I don’t think anybody can argue that you guys … This city is the leader in advancing economic impact through women’s sport. And so our access to Indy, we always make sure from a basketball standpoint, we’re playing a non-conference game in Indianapolis every single year. 

For our booster club, the John Purdue club, over 5,000 of our members live in the greater Indianapolis area. And then just from a university standpoint, obviously the collaboration we have across campus, members of your team and utilizing the airport as a place to remind … Because if you grew up in the Midwest or you love college sports, you know where Purdue is. But if you grew up in the South, if you grew up on the West Coast, because the name Indiana is not in the university’s name, you’ve got to have a way that you understand something exists. 

And so the Final Fours, all of the sporting events that Indianapolis hosts, it makes it a great place for our students. Not just our student athletes, but our entire student body to have a great collegiate experience with access, not just to an urban environment, but to real professional opportunities. 

And then I would say too, being innovative as a city, not tied to my day job, but two of my favorite things that Purdue does, we educate pilots. And so being tied to the airport is a big deal for our university. And then motorsports engineering … And I would say sports engineering, Purdue is taking the first step in those areas. So our tie to the Indy Motor Speedway and pursuing what I would call non-traditional sport compared to what young kids normally look at. Because it’s young people today that are our future students and our future, future alums. All of that wouldn’t be possible without the city of Indianapolis and the way they exist. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. And we’re looking forward to the Indy 500 coming up in May. 

Ken Halpin: 

Absolutely. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. So let’s dig into Purdue basketball. There’s just a high bar for national excellence. This was our third consecutive year playing in the Sweet 16, Coach Painter’s third trip to the Elite Eight. Coach Painter’s 500th win. Braden Smith broke the NCAA all time career assist record. We have our amazing seniors, Fletcher Lawyer, TKR, Braden, they set the record for the most wins for a senior class in Purdue history. Why are these successes so unique, especially when it’s this modern day NIL? We have this unique loyalty factor here at Purdue. 

Ken Halpin: 

Yeah. And I do, on Fletch’s behalf, I have to add for a school that so famously had so many three point shooters for being the best three point shooter in school history. It’s been special because I do, one of the best parts of my job is I get an up close look at everything our basketball program does. And I was just talking to one of my colleagues yesterday about this. 68 teams get to play in the NCAA tournament every year. And 67 of them all are going to end their season on a loss. 

And so you have this incredible high immediately tied to a low and you don’t know when it’s coming. And it took Trey’s Tip-In at the end of the Texas game to get to the Elite Eight. It’s special to be a part of, and it’s an emotional rollercoaster that professionally is not always easy. We talk all the time, like being emotionally invested in something that’s tied to your career, makes it really difficult to roll and cope with. 

But at the same time, we’re in the biggest basketball state in the country. So basketball is every … I mean, our other sports matter. I mean, we just hosted two nights ago, a fundraiser for our volleyball program and Dave Shondell, 22 years as a head coach at Purdue, just got to the Elite Eight in one of the fastest growing women’s sports in the country. A few years ago, you couldn’t dream that collegiate volleyball players would dream about professional volleyball. That’s a real thing now. And that’s a big part of the city of Indianapolis. 

But it’s special to be a part of. But also our staff, you won’t find better human beings in the country than our staff, as our people here know. But because Indy is what it is and because of the nine Final Fours, right, the 10th one is going to be … So one of our incoming recruits, Luke Ertel’s a Mount Vernon High kid who’s going to come to Purdue. When he’s a junior, the final four will be in Indy again. 

So there’s always the future. There’s always the opportunity for, what’s the next level of talent? And what’s really special about Purdue is we take growth systematically. We take that concept very … It’s very important to us. So that every step forward we take is when we know we’re not going to lose the next year. We’re going to be different next year, but we’re not going to be taking a step back. There’s a new normal and a new standard of excellence that keeps growing under Coach Painter’s leadership and it’s fun to be a part of. 

Kate Young: 

We’re sad to see them go, but what do you think the future holds for Braden, Fletcher, Trey? 

Ken Halpin: 

Well, I think all three of them are going to have professional opportunities. They’re all very different. They’re just such interesting human beings. Trey is so thoughtful and so introspective. And when he gets a week off, I think he’d probably rather go hiking in the woods than anything else. But he’s a monster who can still make a lot of money playing basketball. 

Fletch can shoot anywhere, any team he can be on. I think Fletcher, from a mindset standpoint … I don’t know if he wants to do this or not. He’s very much built to be a coach someday. He’s intellectually one of the smartest minds I know coach would say he’s ever had on his team. 

And then obviously Braden has positioned himself to show that he can set anybody in the world up to score on a basketball court. And so his hopes are going to obviously be in the NBA, but he’s got a bright future ahead of him no matter what. Just because of his work ethic and his tenaciousness and his desire to overachieve. 

So it’s a special group that we’re going to miss for a long time. But that goes with every … I mean, we’ve got stories about guys on our roster that aren’t as in the news from a fan standpoint. But still the character integrity and work ethic of our entire roster, it’s something special to be around professionally. I joke with people, if you’ve ever met anyone in your entire life who’s ever been associated with Purdue basketball, you know immediately they’re not a jerk. Because it’s not tolerated, it’s not welcome. The way they treat human beings is second to none, and it’s the best part about being around guys like Braden, Trey and Fletch. 

Kate Young: 

We had coach P.J. Thompson on the podcast and he had echoes exactly what you just said. So I would encourage our listeners and viewers to check that episode out as well. 

But Julie, I want to dig more into what this cultural moment means for the city. You said we can feel the buzz here. What does a national event like this mean to the Indianapolis community? 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Well, beyond like you just think about the exposure and the millions of people tuning in to watch. But now through all these social channels like the Purdue podcast, I think it just shines such a spotlight on what really is the epicenter of sport. I mean, Ken said it, the Sports Corp, I just finished as chair of the board. We launched a 2050 vision for our city and state to be the epicenter of sport. And then we’ve got five key pillars. And one of those is to be the capital of women’s sports and we’re well on our way. We just frankly need to quit being so humble about it and be bold and explain why we can claim that. 

But part of that is hosting these mega events and building this ecosystem where it’s not just the event. There’s this whole spectrum of other opportunities happening. So the idea currently that I’m seeing really unfold, just it’s incredible, it’s called SWISH. So you have over 175 artists who might have thought, “How would I ever be connected with the Final Four?” Well, it’s a takeover of downtown Indy, whether it’s the spoken ward, they’re painting murals, there’s musical performances that’s inside The Stutz arts building. And then it’s just a takeover of Capitol Street and Georgia, to say, “Hey, yes, of course, basketball is the dominant reason why we’re all here.” And on top of that, we want to celebrate the cultural aspect around sport to frankly just make it inclusive. And then of course, you’ve got the musical acts and the fan fest where you can go in and take your shot with any green screen that you want. 

But I think that’s where our city really comes to life is recognizing … I just keep going back to the word unifying. And just to take liberty to Ken’s point earlier, to go back to Purdue and play to the audience here. But as a longtime fan of Purdue, but someone that worked in college sports for 25 years, I can say hands down, Ken is absolutely right. The people … First of all, I’ve seen Coach Painter and NCA committees that I served on where he was in the same room. And he approaches committee work just as tenacious and shows up with integrity and on time and all the things you would expect of a true leader in that setting, as you see him whenever all the lights are on and he’s coaching in an Elite Eight game. 

And to me, that’s who he is and you see that through his team with two teenagers who are diehard fans of Purdue basketball, it’s because those guys are role models. And because they’ve seen them off the court and they see who they are and it’s the same person on the court. Of course, they want to win. But I think there is a unique character that starts at the top with the board and the president, with Mike and Ken and the athletics department, and then of course, the coaching staff. And it is special in this collegiate landscape. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. I love that. You’re both leaders in your fields, you’ve seen firsthand house sports connect people. You said you have teenagers who are Purdue fans. And sports connect people across all generations. And you’ve touched on basketball means so much to this state in particular. What are some ways that you’ve seen sports strengthen your communities? Ken, we can start with you. 

Ken Halpin: 

Yeah. I mean, well, just the fact that Julia and I are sitting here next to each other is a prime example. 

So in light of just the drive of sport in Indianapolis through the direction of Dr. Jeanne Boyd, Purdue has recently launched a sport management program. So the academic approach to preparing future leaders in sport is here and arrived. And that’s in addition to motor sports engineering and sports engineering and all the various ways that Purdue is applying sport from an academic standpoint. 

And then frankly, the folks, just all of leadership, including Julie with Pacer Sports & Entertainment, and everything from a leadership standpoint at Purdue, there are almost too many ideas of ways that we can collaborate with the campus we have in Indy and the ideas. And to echo in return, the character and integrity and the desire for people who work for the ports … For Mel and Frank and everyone and Joey at the Pacers. The desire to see this city grow in relevance long beyond our lifetime, to do things that set up the children of our children to be successful and find sport as a connector throughout the state of Indiana, to be frank. But starting from the city of Indianapolis, there are a lot of things that are still an ideas state that need development and need growth. But they’re going to happen because there’s just way too much opportunity. 

The city of Indianapolis, I think you said it perfectly earlier, everything happens here needs to be bragged about a little bit more. Because it’s real what’s happening. 

Kate Young: 

We’re humble Midwest people. 

Ken Halpin: 

That’s a thousand percent right. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Yeah. I think I would add to that … And now I’ve seen it in the college space and I have the privilege of seeing the Pacers and Fever and this global platform that they have. It’s about opportunity and access relative to the community. And there’s an entire charitable arm with the Pacers and the Fever from addressing food insecurity to homelessness. And those are initiatives that we are passionate about. 

And then there’s the opportunity of careers and partnerships to really be innovative and frankly set our city up, as Ken said, for what’s next. The longtime vice chairman at the Pacers who passed a couple years ago and his spirit lives on, his name’s Jim Morris. He’s obviously really, I think, a founding father, as many would say, of our city, especially the sports strategy. He’s the reason I’m here and so many people relocated from Kansas City to Indianapolis when the NCAA headquarters moved here. And that’s why we’ve had so many Final Fours. But he used to always say, “See every opportunity in its largest possible context.” And I think that’s what we are doing with sport. Yes, we love the sheer competition and the spirit that comes with it. But the largest possible context and opportunity here is about how do we bring people together and then move forward collectively. 

Kate Young: 

Julie, I’m sure you’ll be out and about downtown Indie all weekend. What are you most looking forward to? 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Well, I am looking forward to the games, even though my team Purdue is not going to be playing. 

Ken Halpin: 

Speak for yourself. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Yeah. I might have somebody in my house rooting against Arizona, even though I said, “Hey guys, it’s okay. We can move past.” Because I worked in college sports for so long, this is a little bit like a homecoming. Because the Final Four is such a gathering point. So there’s an ESPN party tonight, Pacer Sports Entertainment is hosting an event tomorrow. We’ve got the NIT championship and the division two and three championships at Gainbridge Fieldhouse on Sunday. Which by the way, no city has claimed four national champions in a 36-hour time period. But we’re getting ready to do that here in Indianapolis over the next couple of days. So frankly, it’s the people. I’m looking forward to just seeing all of the great people like Ken that work in sports, all come to our home. 

Kate Young: 

Ken, any predictions for this weekend from your sports angle? 

Ken Halpin: 

I predict that I will not be down here. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

He was invited, by the way. 

Ken Halpin: 

Yes, I was. It’s hard. I’ve always been a big fan of college basketball in general and always been … You get to attend when you work in college athletics, Final Fours, and see people you haven’t seen in forever. When you’re on the inside and you aspire to participate in it, it makes it really difficult to still engage in those things when … We all believe we should be here and so … And that’ll never change. And that’s why I love being at Purdue. Final four is our expectation and it doesn’t feel right to not be there. 

But there are some really, really talented, big, fast basketball teams playing this year. 

Kate Young: 

Yes. 

Ken Halpin: 

I think bigger and faster than I can remember seeing in a long time. So I don’t know. I root for people that do good things. Obviously, Big Ten doing well is always great for us. But Tommy Lloyd … I have a graduate degree from Gonzaga University. Tommy Lloyd went to Arizona from Gonzaga, so I wouldn’t mind seeing him do really well. But outside of that, I’m going to watch some youth soccer on Saturday and Sunday. 

Kate Young: 

Good for you. I plan to be downtown. I can’t wait. I love events like this. I might go to the three point contest at Hinkle tonight. 

Ken Halpin: 

Yes, wear that t-shirt. 

Kate Young: 

I absolutely will. 

Well, thank you guys so much for joining us. It was an absolute pleasure. So exciting to be here before this action-packed weekend. So thank you. Anything I missed? Anything you want to tell the listeners, viewers? 

Julie Roe Lach: 

I’d just say come on downtown. There’s literally something for everyone and so much of it is free. And that, what I think, is really spectacular. We want this to be a community and frankly, a citywide event. So come on downtown. 

Ken Halpin: 

I’ll put a shameless Purdue plug in real quick. I know one of the questions that were thrown out is like … And I’d be curious your answer to this, future events you might want to see come here. So I have an answer and I know you know what it is. And it’s not exactly to Indy, but it’s utilizing Indy. What I think we, at Purdue, need to continue doing a better job of helping people understand is we don’t have one, we have two world-class golf courses right on our campus. I mentioned earlier, we train pilots, which means we have an airport on campus. And just a year ago, we opened a $40 million golf clubhouse. And so what we would love to see come through Indiana via Purdue someday is potential major golf events. 

We’ve had discussions about LPGA, we want to earn PGA events. Those are the types of opportunities we think … We get to dream outside the box and stuff like that throughout the state of Indiana because of these partnerships. It’s also a great way to remind people what a hidden gem we have from a golf standpoint up in West Lafayette. 

Kate Young: 

PGA golfer, Adam Schenk. Also, This is Purdue podcast guest. 

Ken Halpin: 

The other fun part of the LPGA idea is you have a PGA event, you can have the Pro-am where any local pros who are interested in playing. And from my understanding, there’s only one fever player who’s really, really, really good at golf and it’d be the one everybody would want to see attend their event. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

I really like the idea now. 

Ken Halpin: 

Thought you might. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

What about you, Julie? What’s another event that Indy could land that you would want to see? 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Well, I think … I mean, first of all, Ken alluded to it earlier, but the fact that we have three Final Fours over the next four years has never happened. So the men’s this year, the women’s in 2028, and then the men’s in ’29. In 2028, we’re also going to build two more pools in Lucas Oil Stadium and host the USA Swim Trials again. I would love for us to continue on that global trajectory, meaning the Olympics, in terms of hosting a national team. Whether it’s USA Gymnastics trials, which we’ve been able to secure their headquarters here or bring a USA track and field finals here, to really then see our Olympians off to go represent our country on the global stage. I think that’s … Of course, I’m all for the LPGA. But I think that continuing to push us globally is where we need to be. 

Kate Young: 

Those swim trials, was that two summers ago, last summer? 

Julie Roe Lach: 

It was 2024. 

Kate Young: 

That was so fun downtown too. That was a blast. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Coming back. 

Ken Halpin: 

Just building pools inside football stadiums is a wild concept that I’m just fascinated with. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Only in Indy. 

Ken Halpin: 

Correct. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

First time ever. 

Kate Young: 

There were boilermakers involved in that, if I remember correctly. 

Julie Roe Lach: 

Had to have been, right? That’s an engineering feat. 

Kate Young: 

So thank you again. It was a pleasure. Everyone subscribe to This is Purdue on Apple, Spotify, YouTube. We’re not done with our spring season yet, so be sure to tune in. Remember, in 49 other states, it’s just basketball. But this is Indiana, so boiler up. Thanks everyone. 

Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. There, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe and leave us a review. And as always, boiler up.

Mark Montieth: 

This is Mark Montieth, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking, who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Mark Montieth: 

Indiana got in on the ground floor of basketball. And it just so is a part of our lives, particularly for baby boomers like myself. It was a part of your life growing up, whether it was watching the state tournament on television or you’re being an IU or Purdue fan or going to a Butler game. It’s just part of the culture. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Mark Montieth, author and longtime sports journalist. Mark is an Indiana native and an expert on our state’s basketball culture. And he knows firsthand how Purdue has played a role in this rich legacy. He also has a unique perspective on this topic as he’s covered basketball at all different levels, from high school to certain iconic college rivalries, to the Pacers during the Reggie Miller era. And speaking of college basketball, he also documented the Purdue Boilermaker’s 1988 basketball team’s season-long journey, along with legendary coach, Gene Keady, and wrote a book called Passion Play: A Season With the Purdue Boilermakers and Coach Gene Keady. We’ll hear about that experience and his behind the scenes all access past to that team and Coach Keady in this episode. 

Mark has been a reporter for publications such as The Journal Gazette in Fort Wayne and The Indianapolis Star. He’s a true storyteller, and you’ll hear some incredible stories within this episode. He dives into how the sport of basketball gained popularity in Indiana, his memories from when the Pacers first arrived in Indy in 1967, and why Mackey Arena is one of the absolute best environments for a college basketball game. This is another very special episode as I’m once again joined by my colleague and Indianapolis sports personality, Derek Schultz. Let’s get to it. Here’s our conversation with Mark. 

Mark, thank you so much for joining us on This Is Purdue, the Official University podcast. You are a renowned Indiana basketball historian, a sports journalist. We’re thrilled to have you. We’re thrilled to really dig into this unique perspective that you have on all things basketball and ahead of the NCAA Final Four in Downtown Indy. So, perfect timing. In 49 other states, it’s just basketball, but this is Indiana, so we got to dive in today. And of course, I’m joined once again by Derek Schultz, my colleague and sports personality. Derek? 

Derek Schultz: 

Yeah. It’s awesome to be here to see the studio and everything. Do I get to keep the This is Purdue mug as well. 

Kate Young: 

You can have that. I’ll allow that. 

Derek Schultz: 

Awesome. Awesome. 

Kate Young: 

And you too, Mark. 

Derek Schultz: 

I haven’t asked about that. 

Mark Montieth: 

Great. All right. It’s all about the swag. 

Kate Young: 

So, Mark, we want to dive into your personal basketball origin story. How did you become involved in basketball? Was that an interest from when you were a young child? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. I grew up in Indiana, so it’s hard to avoid basketball. I’ve got an older brother, 10 years older, who played high school basketball at Pike. So, when I’m five, six years old, I’m going to high school games in Pike’s old gym. And just the excitement of those games, the band, the cheerleaders, the color of the scoreboard and all that. I just fell in love with it there. They’re watching games on television. I was a reader as a kid, so I read the sports section every day in the newspaper. And beyond that, my dad was a Butler grad. And not an athlete, but a fan, and so we went to Butler games. He had season tickets for Butler games throughout most of the ’60s. So, I would go to those games and just fell in love with it at a young age. And was out in the driveway playing it every chance I got as a little kid. 

Derek Schultz: 

Did you know that you wanted to work in sports because of that passion for basketball? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah, I did. Reading and writing came more naturally to me than math and science. I had that kind of brain. So, I think when I was 12 years old, I knew that I wanted to be a sports writer for a newspaper. In fact, there was a sports writer for the Indianapolis News back in the day named Corky Lamm, really talented guy. And he went to the same church that I attended growing up. And one day my mom said to him, “My son, Mark, wants to be a sports writer.” And Corky said, “Well, how old is he?” And she said 12 or whatever I was at the time. And he said, “Well, maybe it’s not too late to change his mind then.” 

He had been through the wars that everybody goes through in a career and things didn’t always go his way, so he was a little bitter at that point. But I knew at a young age that that’s what I wanted to do. Worked on the student paper in high school and college, that kind of thing. And just always knew that’s what I would do. 

Kate Young: 

As an Indiana native and as we’re approaching March Madness season, what do you think makes Indiana the state for basketball? 

Mark Montieth: 

Oh, I think Indiana got in on the ground floor of basketball. The game was invented in 1891 by James Naismith. And one of his students at the Springfield YMCA in Massachusetts was a guy named Nicholas McKay, who came back to Crawfordsville a year later and brought the game, introduced it in Crawfordsville, Indiana. And basketball is perfect for the State of Indiana, particularly then, in that the climate and the winter required an indoor activity. Small towns throughout the state where everybody would gather at the gymnasium for a basketball game, that became the town gathering venue for everybody, just caught on. 

It got a lot of coverage in the media. The state tournament started in 1911. That quickly became a big deal. Butler Fieldhouse built the 1928 for the state tournament specifically, and drew huge crowds, and they’re on radio and then later television. And it just got in on the ground floor at the very beginning. And because of the climate, and the culture and everything in the state, it just blossomed. 

Derek Schultz: 

Yeah. Mark, you mentioned the fact that the state tournament for high school basketball has been such a big deal in Indiana basketball lore. And what I’ve always found endearing about the state is the following, not only on the pro level with the pro team, the college level with Purdue, et cetera, but also the high school level. How much does that make Indiana unique compared to anywhere else in the country, just the passionate following for high school basketball in the state? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. It’s really been about high school. Who’s your hysteria, is high school basketball basically. And even throughout the ’30s and ’40s, high school basketball was bigger than college basketball. I mean, Indiana won a national championship in 1940. But really, high school basketball was still bigger at that time. That state tournament in Butler can’t be undervalued. Again, all the small towns gathered for the high school games. I would say until the Pacers began in 1967, high school basketball was it. I mean, Butler games drew. IU and Purdue had good teams here and there that were popular. But it was about high school basketball really for a long time and still is to a large degree. The good teams still draw. 

Obviously, we all know class basketball had an impact on it. That was probably likely to happen anyway. There’s so many diversions now for people, sporting events on television and so forth. But high school basketball is the foundation of the game in Indiana for sure. In other states, I’ve researched this. Indiana had a Mr. Basketball in 1939. No other state had won until, I believe, 1950. And some didn’t have any until the ’80s. But in Indiana, we followed the game that closely and honored the players in a major way, going back to the 1930s. 

Kate Young: 

So, when we talk about breakout stars in Indy, we have Caitlin Clark, Tyrese Haliburton, there’s Netflix shows, there’s commercials. What has that been like for you as a journalist as you’re covering these games? When you’re attending games, you’re talking to fans, interacting with other journalists, when we have these big superstars now in Indy. 

Mark Montieth: 

It’s been great. I think certainly the teams that win championships are well remembered, but really it’s individual players I think who get remembered the most. So, currently, it’s people like Tyrese Haliburton, and Caitlin Clark and others. They’re nationally known worldwide actually now. And when you look back, people have a lot of memories of people like a Rick Mount. I talked to Rick on the way up today, as a matter of fact, on the phone. People remember individual games or individual careers, all Americans. They remember Reggie Miller. They remember the teams and the success those teams had, but I think people latch onto the players more than the teams long-term. 

They remember them. They know the personalities. They remember the individual games that players had. Tamika Catchings. You could relate to a player one-on-one more than you could relate to a team, I think, because you’d get to know that player. So, the players of today that you mentioned, Haliburton, Clark and others, just further Hoosier Hysteria, further the popularity of basketball in the state. 

Derek Schultz: 

This state has produced a lot of national, even international stars, some of whom you just mentioned, with Haliburton and Clark. And then you go back to Reggie Miller. But you talked about Rick Mount, the first ever high school athlete on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Could you argue that he was perhaps the first real national basketball star that this state produced? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. I think so, because it didn’t get the media coverage. I mean, Johnny Wooden was probably the best guard in the world for the first half of the 20th century, but not that many people knew that or not that many people saw him play. Games weren’t televised when he played. But Rick Mount on the cover of Sports Illustrated in 1966. He’s actually the first high school athlete from a team sport to be on the cover. There were a couple of swimmers, Olympic swimmers who were on the cover before him, but that blew up. And I remember being in fifth grade at Eastbrook Elementary, knowing that he was going to be on the cover because it was in the newspapers. And when we got word that the issue of Sports Illustrated had arrived in the school library, a few of us sprinted down there just to look at it. 

That was a big deal. That was a huge deal. And of course, Purdue had other great players throughout the ’60s and on after that. And every team eventually will have some great players. And people love that, man. And people will never forget a great player and that player’s accomplishments. 

Kate Young: 

I always pass by the silo or barn with the Ricky Mount. 

Derek Schultz: 

Oh, yeah, still there. 

Mark Montieth: 

They used to have a sign outside of Lebanon, “Lebanon, Indiana, home of Mr. Basketball, Rick Mount.” And it stood there for years. And George McGinnis, who later became a great player, told me once that he and a couple high school teammates drove up there just to look at it. They had heard about it and they just wanted to see it. And then they did a U-turn, and went back and looked at it again. I mean, things like that stick with people. George McGinnis, who obviously became a Hall of Famer in his own right, was so starstruck by Rick Mouth, that when George joined the Pacers after Rick had already been there a year, he couldn’t wait to shake his hand and meet him. He said, “I got chills when I shook his hand,” this kind of thing. So, again, there’s a great player in his own right who was just starstruck by a great player who came before him. So, again, you remember those players. 

Kate Young: 

Derek and I both live in the Indy area. As a writer for the Indianapolis Business Journal, how have you seen the success of Indy sports teams? You think about the Pacers run last year. How have you seen that drive development in the city? 

Mark Montieth: 

I think sports and particularly the Pacers have had a huge impact on Indianapolis. I mean, when the Pacers won their first title, ABA title in 1970, the city had latched onto them. They were there and they were established. And it quickly became evident they need a better place to play. They were playing at the Fairground’s Coliseum, capacity of about 9,100. There would be standing room tickets. I bought a couple standing room tickets in my day for a dollar. It quickly became obvious they needed a better place. And there were proposals to play out on farmland, outside the city, that kind of thing, build the structure there. But fortunately, Mayor Luger stepped in and got it done downtown and they built Market Square Arena right downtown. And that was huge for the development of Indianapolis. That took people downtown again, because it was dying because they were building shopping malls around the suburbs, that kind of thing. 

That got people going back downtown, so you open restaurants and so forth. That was the impetus for downtown development. And then, of course, the Fieldhouse and then later the Hoosier Dome only furthered that. But sports and particularly the Pacers, they played a huge role in downtown development. And now with all the Final Fours, they come to Indianapolis. It just goes on, and on and on. The NFL Combine, I mean, Indianapolis is now known for its sporting events and attractions. So, it all goes back to me, to the Pacers, their success, and how that got another arena built downtown. 

Derek Schultz: 

You have a unique connection to Purdue, Mark, in the sense that you got a real insider look behind the scenes with your book, Passion Play, about Gene Keady and that memorable 1987, ’88 Purdue team, which is effectuately referred to in Purdue circle still as the three amigos, with Troy Lewis, and Everette Stephens, and Todd Mitchell as well. What was that experience like really at the peak of the Gene Keady era, one of the most memorable teams? And how did it shape your view of Purdue’s legacy just overall in the state’s basketball history? 

Mark Montieth: 

That was a great experience for me. And this clicked with me that, boy, it’d be fun to be an insider to a college basketball team for an entire season. And I talked to Coach Keady about it. I had covered Purdue for The Journal Gazette in Fort Wayne since Keady arrived. I went to Keady’s introductory press conference here at Purdue, had a good rapport with him, and he agreed that it’d be a good idea. Obviously, he’s thinking exposure. And Purdue had that team with Troy Lewis, Everette Stephens, Todd Mitchell, that had shared the Big Ten title the year before and had a great opportunity to get to a final four. I just wanted to follow it all the way through. And Coach Keady, compliment to him, gave me total access. I went to every practice. I sat in on every coach’s meeting. I was on the bench during games, the whole bit throughout the season. 

Obviously, a coach has to be running a clean program to give that kind of access to an outsider. He put no limitations on me. He joked about wanting to read the book before it went to print, but he never did. He never asked for anything. There were rare times when he said, “Don’t put this in the book, Mark.” But he’d make a joke about something, but that was never an issue. So, I had total freedom to write what I wanted to and got to know the players. I think the thing that struck me doing that was that it was a reminder of how young college players are. Because they’re great athletes, because they’re big, you tend to think of them as adults, but they’re teenagers. They might be 20, 21 when they graduate, but they’re kids in a lot of ways. And I was reminded of that. 

I was 32 at the time. That kind of really struck. And it also struck me how the games that you see are just the tip of the iceberg. You think of that, oh, what glory these kids experienced playing this game in front of sold out arenas on national television, how much fun that must be. Well, you don’t see the practices, and you don’t see the video sessions, and you don’t see what’s going on when things aren’t going well, how difficult it could be. And you don’t remember the fact that they’re college students having to get up and go to class like everybody else does and the pressures that might be on them. It was a great education for me. I considered it like a graduate level course in covering basketball, because you see the whole picture. You learn a lot about basketball itself, all the work that goes into scouting a game, listening to what goes on during the timeouts. 

These days, cameras are everywhere. And we do see what goes on in timeouts, and they have cameras in the locker room and there’s so much more media exposure today. But in 1987 and ‘8, it wasn’t like that. So, it was just great experience for me. I really enjoyed it. I’m still in touch with most of the players on that team and everyone has gone on to do well in life. Everyone’s still with us, fortunately. But I stayed in touch with Coach Keady for many years. It also reminded me of how loyal the Purdue fan base is. Purdue basketball was great in the ’60s going to the NCAA tournament. The Rick Mount era, Billy Keller, Herm Gilliam, those teams, they won the NIT in 1974. Had good teams throughout the ’80s, won the Big Ten title under Coach Keady in ’84, tied for it in ’87. 

So, the fan base was plugged in. Purdue fan base was right there. And Purdue fan base was hungry for success and for learning about the program. I found out the book did well. It was just a great education for me in a lot of respects. 

Derek Schultz: 

And speaking of those fans, Mark, and you were there for a lot of those games in 1988 at Mackey Arena, and you still clearly have your hearing, which is good, I guess, for being in there with how loud it gets. 

Mark Montieth: 

The loudest arena I’ve ever been in is Mackey Arena when Indiana’s here, no question. 

Derek Schultz: 

What makes that part of the special culture of Purdue basketball to have a venue like that, that not only has renown with the Purdue fan base, but really nationwide? 

Mark Montieth: 

I think a lot of people would agree this is one of the absolute best environments for college basketball, partly because of the acoustics. Mackey is smaller than a lot of the college basketball arenas today, so the sound has nowhere to go. It reverberates. And it used to be that everybody sat on a bench before they redid it and added the luxury area down low. Everybody was sitting on a bench and that made you more willing to stand up and yell. Now people can kind of relax if you’re sitting down low, but you still have the acoustics. You still have a lot of people sitting on benches. It makes for just an outstanding environment. I remember when they did that major revision of it 10 years ago or so, I forget the exact year, there was some talk about a new arena. And I was really glad that they didn’t because Mackey is a classic place. 

It’s big enough. I know they can put in more people certainly when things are going well, but it’s big enough. It makes for a great environment. You have the luxury seating for the alums to sit and it’s a revenue source. But Mackey is just one of the absolute best environments for a college basketball game. I just remember so many games, when they did a run going against an Indiana or a nationally known program, and you just kind of be looking at each other in the media area like, “Can you believe this? This is just amazing.” 

And I remember when I did the book on Passion Play, sitting with the players the night before a big game, the freshman would be asking, “What’s it going to be like? What’s it going to be like?” And guys like Troy Lewis, Todd Mitchell would be saying, “Oh, just wait, don’t let us get a run. We get a run going. It’s going to be unbelievable.” And that’s how it is. The noise level here is greater than anywhere. 

Kate Young: 

I always love the little videos I see of other coaches saying, like everyone’s saying, “Mackey, Mackey,” when they’re saying what’s the hardest stadium to play at. We recently had P.J. Thompson on the podcast, former basketball player, now assistant coach for the Boilermakers. And he just really spoke to that unique team culture, like Derek and you were just talking about, that education, the loyalty, the family aspect of it. Why do you think that between Coach Keady and now Coach Painter, their coaching styles and their success, how has that led into this culture? 

Mark Montieth: 

I think their personalities make that happen. In the case of Matt Painter, he’s a guy who grew up in Indiana, knows all about the State of Indiana’s basketball traditions. That’s just the way he runs this program. He’s not a big ego guy. He’s a down-to-earth guy and he delegates where he involves his coaching staff. He wants a certain kind of guy on his team. One thing that impresses me about him is that even if a guy transfers for more playing time, even if a guy is told to lead the program, those guys are welcomed back. They had that alumni game every August. And you see guys coming back who left the program to get more playing time or whatever. And I think that speaks really highly od Matt Painter, that he realizes it’s about more than just basketball. And he’s not going to be mad at you for the rest of your life if you go off the play somewhere else. 

It really has to do with the humble nature of guys like Gene Keady, and Matt Painter, and how they want their program to be a certain way. And they’re not driven only by winning and only about their personal success and their power. It’s not about power or money or ego for them. It’s about having a good college basketball program. They came up in a certain kind of program and they want the program to still be that way. 

Derek Schultz: 

And it’s weird to maybe label that as old school. But in today’s college sports world, it probably is old school, with NIL and everything like that. 

Mark Montieth: 

Absolutely. 

Derek Schultz: 

Does that sort of value-based come here, get your education, be better for your future on and off the basketball court? Do you think that that connects more deeply with fans here in the State of Indiana, because it aligns with those sort of values for the Midwest as well? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah, I think so. It really aligns with Midwestern values. And particularly, when you’re not playing in a big city, when you’re not playing in Louisville or Chicago or whatever, even Columbus, Ohio, it just fits better that way. So, absolutely, I think it does. 

Kate Young: 

We talked about your book, your experience writing that, that all access behind the scenes pass you had. What was it about that 1988 team that really compelled you to write the book? 

Mark Montieth: 

Well, just the chance they had to win a national championship. They, again, had tied for the Big Ten title with Indiana the year before. Had all these guys coming back, four of their starters coming back. You had these three seniors who were in their fourth year. So, mainly, the fact they had a chance to be really successful, but also the opportunity that Coach Keady allowed me, knowing the coach he was, knowing… I knew what kind of program he ran and that I wouldn’t have to turn the other way a lot. I wouldn’t have to hide anything. 

Derek Schultz: 

Hold your nose? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. It all fit together. The timing was right for me. I was just at a stage of my career that I wanted to do something like that. But mainly, the fact that that team had a chance to be really good. And I knew they were good guys. And I wanted to get into what their experience was like, who these guys were, and how they felt about different aspects of playing Major College Basketball and tell their stories as well. And it had to be the right kind of guy to do that with. He didn’t want guys who were troublemakers, that type of thing, and tell that kind of story. And you may not know this, but I tried to repeat it with a couple of Matt Painter’s teams. When they had the team, what, 2009 or 10 when Hummel, Joan Johnson, each one of them were going to be seniors. 

Kate Young: 

That’s when I was here. 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. I did it again. I spent that season with them. Matt gave me that access again to do it. Rob goes and blows out his knee on the first day of preseason practice, but I had already committed to doing it. I actually was staying in Coach Keady’s house. He was out at St. John’s with Steve Levin. I paid rent and stayed at his house. 

Kate Young: 

Wow. 

Mark Montieth: 

But that season, it didn’t quite work out. And then Rob Hummel was going to come back the next year. I thought, well, that could be a great story. And I came back and spent a second season doing that every day with him, every meeting. But there just wasn’t enough there to do a book that people would want to buy. It’s hard enough to sell a book these days. And those seasons weren’t championship seasons in any sense. Still, no regrets. A great experience for me of being in that program for two seasons and seeing every step of the way. I was older then, more of a generation gap between me and the players. Didn’t get to know them the same way I knew the ’88 guys, but did get to know a lot of them well and still run into… 

I still see Taron Johnson in Indy, and I run into Kelsey Barlow, and I talked to Rob Hummel now and then and established relationships. And I could tell you that Matt Painter was running the cleanest program in the country and was doing things the right way. But the seasons, because of Rob’s injury, just didn’t quite work out the way they hoped. So, didn’t do a book, although someday I would like to do something on those teams, and what became of those guys, and how things evolved, but that’s further down the road. 

Kate Young: 

I love to see Robbie’s career as a sports journalist now. I’m always watching for him. 

Mark Montieth: 

Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Kate Young: 

We have to get him on here. What about your interest in the Pacers? 

Mark Montieth: 

I was 12 years old when the Pacers began playing in 1967 and went to some games that first year at the Coliseum. I remember their very first game in October of 1967, talking to my older brother, “We should go to that game.” And we didn’t, which was a good thing because it was sold out. They gave away so many tickets, they actually turned people away. They had a smart GM who wanted the first game to be a big thing, so he gave away a lot of tickets. 

Kate Young: 

For free? 

Mark Montieth: 

Oh, yeah. Every fire department and police force, and they just flooded it with tickets to make sure they had a big event. So, I followed the Pacers from the very beginning. Went to some games that first year. First game I went to, I got Rick Barry’s autograph. He was doing radio for the Oakland Oaks and just stayed with it. Went to games throughout high school. College, was away from it somewhat. And then I was working in Fort Wayne. And when I moved back to Indianapolis in the mid ’80s, began going to games again. So, I always had a big interest in the Pacers and certainly followed their championship teams closely. 

And then when I became a working journalist, had an opportunity to write about those guys and get to know them. Got to know guys like George McGinnis and Mel Daniels well, Billy Keller. That’s been a big part of my career as well. I feel very fortunate to have had elements where I was doing college stuff, doing a book with Purdue, and covering Bob Knight’s teams in Indiana. And then also being the Pacers beat writer for The Indianapolis Star for 12 years, which was a great experience. And my timing was very fortunate, because most of those years they were really good and I saw some amazing things during that time. 

Really enjoyed that as well. I’ve been very lucky with my timing. Also, the fact that newspapers were more relevant when I was doing it. People needed newspapers to know what was going on at that time, so very fortunate in that regard. 

Kate Young: 

We touched on this a little earlier, but what do you think that the NBA finals and the Pacers making it that far last season meant to the State of Indiana? 

Mark Montieth: 

Oh, a lot. And people just fell in love with that team and they had so many dramatic moments. The Haliburton shots and those players just going off. I mean, the games were so good. The team was so likable, good guys. And people in Indiana want to like the players. They want to think of them as good guys. They’ll support any team that wins, but you want the guys to be guys you feel like you would get along with or like. And that team was certainly one of them. It just clicked. I mean, boy, you never saw so many people wearing Pacers merchandise throughout the playoffs, throughout the summer and even now. And even now that they’re… because of the injuries, not having a good year, I think fans are giving them a pass. They understand. 

They have so many great memories from last year, that they’re still clinging to that, and still going to games and still liking this team. They can’t go on this way for long, but they still like the team. And I think that team really took hold the similar way that some of the Reggie Miller teams did and the ABA Championship teams did. 

Derek Schultz: 

We saw the NBA championship decided in Indianapolis last year, as well as Oklahoma City. This year, men’s basketball, Final Four, making its return to Indy. And it’s been in this rotation. So, we’ve seen a lot of great Final Four memories here in Indianapolis, including Purdue’s first trip or second trip in 1980, one of their three trips at the Old Market Square Arena. What makes the Final Four special to you, Mark, especially when it’s right here in our backyard? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. Well, it brings the whole country together. The Final Four is as big a sporting event as there is. They’re with the Super Bowl. I can’t quote you TV ratings or whatever, but it’s a obviously very big deal. And when it comes to your city, the nation convergence. And I covered the Final Four in 1980 when Purdue was in it. And it was a big deal then, but not like today. To think of a Final Four being in a basketball arena and not a football stadium, that’s pretty quaint by today’s standards, but really enjoyable. And just the color. You still have the cheerleaders, and the bands and everything. It still has a more of a innocent atmosphere than the pro game does. They’re a lot of fun to cover. You have two games on a Saturday and then there’s a tournament, so you have another game on Monday. 

It’s just a great thing for any city that gets to host it. And it’s the best… It’s never better than when it’s in Indianapolis, because it’s the perfect city to host an event like that. I’ve covered Final Fours in Dallas and Philadelphia, other cities. And it’s not the same, because… I covered it in Seattle once. You’re always getting on a bus, being taken to a practice or a press conference or a game or whatever. And it’s okay, but it’s not convenient. Indianapolis, you can walk to wherever you want to go. You walk to dinner, you walk to practice. And when you’re doing that, you’re mingling with people there for it. You’re mingling with fans from other teams. It creates a more festive atmosphere. It’s a party. 

You’re out at restaurants and fans from all over are there. I think that’s what people love about it, being in Indianapolis. It just has the best atmosphere of any Final Four. These other cities are usually bigger. You’re all spread out. You’re having to get on a bus or take an Uber somewhere. So, Indianapolis, just a perfect place for a Final Four, and that’s why it has it so often. 

Kate Young: 

I love that word festive. That’s fitting. In your eyes, what will continue to set Indiana basketball culture apart? 

Mark Montieth: 

Oh, I think it’s so well established that it’ll never go away. I think on all levels, it’s going to be there. Not the same in high school as it used to be. We all know that. But Purdue and Indiana are never going to go through too many seasons where they’re not good. Notre Dame’s going to be a factor. Butler’s had its moments, that kind of thing. The Pacers have been well managed over the years, so they’ll have down years, but never be too far down for too long, I don’t think. The teams will be there good enough to attract a fan interest. 

It’s a part of our lives, particularly for baby boomers like myself. It was a part of your life growing up, whether it was watching the state tournament on television or being an IU or Purdue fan or going to a Butler game. It’s just part of the culture. And once it’s part of the culture, it’s going to be hard for it to ever go away. And I don’t think that’ll ever happen. 

Kate Young: 

As I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, Mark had a decades long career as a sports journalist, so he’s seen a lot throughout his life. We asked Mark some of the top basketball moments he’s covered. And well, he has some incredible stories. 

Mark Montieth: 

Saw the terror throw, covered the Purdue game in Indiana when Bob Knight threw the chair. 

Kate Young: 

What was that like in person? 

Mark Montieth: 

Great. You never want to miss an occasion like that, so I was glad to be there. It got pretty ugly. I mean, it’s a joke now. Bob Knight went on David Letterman and joked about it. Ha, ha, ha, wasn’t that great? 

Kate Young: 

But was it scary at the time? 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah, because the fans turned ugly. I mean, they’re angry bob Knight got kicked out. They’re throwing coins. And there was one moment in the game where a call went against Indiana and someone threw a coin that ricocheted and hit Gene Keady’s wife in the eye. She left Assembly Hall that day with a patch over her eye, so that was the atmosphere. And I remember Gene Keady coming into the media room after the game and saying, “The story here is that Purdue won the game.” He knew that it was going to be, people were going to forget that Purdue won the game and it’s all about Bob Knight throwing the chair. So, it kind of got overshadowed that Purdue won that game. 

Kate Young: 

I actually didn’t know that. 

Mark Montieth: 

The IU-Purdue rivalry was never better than in the ’80s when Keady and I were going head-to-head. The best year for the rivalry was the previous year. It was the ’86, ’87 season, because they tied for the Big Ten title. Indiana won by 11 in Bloomington and Purdue won by 11 in Lafayette. That was the peak of the rivalry to me. I remember the game at Purdue, all 10 starters were averaging in double figures. Has that ever happened in college basketball? That’s how balanced the teams were, how deep they were. It showed the system that the coaches had of ball movement, and sharing the ball, and not taking bad shots and everything. So, I got to witness the rivalry at its peak. And then covering the Pacers, I saw some of… I covered the second half of Reggie Miller’s career, so I saw a lot of his great moments. 

And I was there for the brawl in Detroit. And I would’ve hated to miss that one. That was crazy, and it was dangerous and it was ugly, but I was happy to be there, that fateful night in, what, November of 2004. I saw a lot of great moments, a lot of great games, a lot of great individual performances. Saw some kind of ugly moments, but you want to be there for those to. The ugly moments make you appreciate the great moments that much more and they’re historic. Things will happen over the course of history that we don’t feel real good about, but they happen. So, you do it long enough that you’ll get to see some of those. 

And I’ve told Derek that when you get to be my age, you’ll be regarded as a historian as well. And you’ll see a lot of great moments that you can talk about. And that’s what the fun is. So, being a sports journalist, you get paid to go see a lot of these great moments. 

Derek Schultz: 

Well, it’s a sign of respect, Mark, to say a story, not your sign of your age, I promise. 

Mark Montieth: 

Okay. All right. 

Kate Young: 

Going back to Keady and Knight too, I think it is important. We had Coach Keady on This Is Purdue. They were close friends. 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. 

Kate Young: 

Behind the rivalry, these were two men that were close friends for many, many years. 

Mark Montieth: 

Yeah. And they became better friends, of course, after they retired and they did some speaking engagements together. And they shared a lot in common. The way they played, shot selection, sharing the ball, aggressive defense, that kind of thing, it was just an absolute tremendous rivalry. And there were some blowouts here and there, but there were so many great games. And I always felt like the fans felt the rivalry more than the players, because the players knew one another on each other’s team to the most part. But that fan intensity certainly got under the skin of the players. And they felt it, and they looked forward to those games and loved playing in those games. Tremendous rivalry that I was privileged to see. 

Derek Schultz: 

By the way, Kate, and Mark can check me on this., I’m pretty sure Gene Keady, 21 and 20 all time against Bob Knight Winning record. 

Mark Montieth: 

Yes, you’re right. Absolutely. 

Derek Schultz: 

Just want to put that out there and get that on record. 

Mark Montieth: 

Put it out there. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you, Derek. 

Mark Montieth: 

And that’s no small deal. That’s no small thing. No other coach could make that claim. No other Big Ten coach, certainly could go toe to toe with him like that. And really, maybe the most fun games I ever covered were wen Purdue won in Assembly Hall, but just great games. And the atmosphere is so good and the passion is so intense. You won’t see that very likely in many pro games. And to cover games like that, just to be in the building, you feel privileged. 

Kate Young: 

I can’t thank you enough. It’s been so fun. Derek, thank you for joining. 

Derek Schultz: 

Yeah, anytime. And I’m going to take you up on the coffee mug. I’m going to stick that in my bag once- 

Kate Young: 

I’ll give you a couple. We have some extras. Okay. Well, thanks again, Mark. It was awesome. 

Mark Montieth: 

Thank you guys. Appreciate it. 

Kate Young: 

Wow, that was incredible. We can’t thank Mark enough for joining us. If you want to watch our full video interview with Mark in our podcast studio, check out our YouTube page, youTube.com/@thisispurdue, and click that subscribe button while you’re there. Plus, be sure to follow This Is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This Is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young, and a special thanks to my co-host on this episode, Derek Schultz. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone in collaboration with Jon Garcia and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshe and our creative production manager is Dalani Young. 

Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youTube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, boiler up. 

Jerry Palm: 

This is Jerry Palm and you are listening to This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Jerry Palm: 

The real winners when it comes to brackets are going to be the ones that can correctly predict upsets. Yeah, I look for teams that have already done that kind of a thing in the regular season, have found a way to beat teams that are thought to be better off their home floor because the is not played on home floor. 

Kate Young: 

This episode of This is Purdue, we’re talking to Jerry Palm, a nationally recognized bracketologist and owner of Palm Brackets. But what exactly is a bracketologist and how did this boilermaker become one of the first people to get involved in bracketology back in the ’90s before, well, it was ever really even a word? In this interview, Jerry, a former CBS sports lead bracketologist is digging into all things brackets, seedings and selections. We are talking bracket methods from the traditional to the more unconventional plus digging into the more technical aspects of the bracketology field. This one is the perfect episode to listen to ahead of the upcoming tournament that will conclude with the Final Four in downtown Indianapolis this April. But first, a bit more background on Jerry. 

Kate Young: 

He graduated from Purdue in 1985 with a computer science degree. He’s also a proud alum of the All-American Marching Band. Now, he leads his own bracketology website where he shares his data-driven projections on the NCAA tournament and college football playoff team selections and seedings. Oh, and one last note and a little surprise for our listeners. For the first time, I’m being joined by a special co-host, Purdue University spokesperson and Indie sports personality, Derek Schultz. 

Kate Young: 

Derek has quite a following in the sports community and is a self-proclaimed sports nerd and as most of you all know if you’ve been listening to this show for a while, I myself am not exactly a sports expert, so he brought the perfect balance to this episode, even if he did laugh at me for some of my more unconventional approaches to filling out my brackets each year. Okay, basketball fans get ready to impress your friends and family this tournament season. Let’s get to it. Here’s our conversation with Jerry. 

Kate Young: 

Jerry Palm, thank you so much for joining us on. This is Purdue, the official university podcast. You are a nationally recognized bracketologist. You’ve spent many years as a lead bracketologist at CBS Sports. You’ve made countless national media appearances. You’re also a Purdue computer science and All-American Marching Band alum. We’re so excited to hear your tips and tricks on bracket strategy. I think I need them ahead of this March Madness tournament time and we’re just really excited because it’s the perfect time. We’re going to have the NCAA Final Four in downtown Indy and then this is also a very special episode. For the first time, I have a co-host with me, my Purdue colleague and Indianapolis sports personality, Derek Schultz. Derek, thanks for joining us. 

Derek Schultz: 

Yeah, super excited to be here and even more geeked out to geek out on some basketball with Jerry Palm. 

Kate Young: 

Jerry, thanks for coming. 

Jerry Palm: 

Well, thanks for having me on. This is a unique experience for me to do something like this and especially for Purdue. It’s very exciting. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, we’ve heard you are a huge Purdue fan. Lots of family ties to Purdue, so we’ll get into all that, but let’s jump right into the hot topic that college basketball fans everywhere are eager to hear more about, especially during the month of March, which is tournament brackets. What would you say when it comes to bracketology? Is it more of a science or an art? 

Jerry Palm: 

It’s a little bit of both. Bracketology itself is trying to predict what the committee is going to do in terms of building the field and setting up the initial bracket. It’s not really about predicting what’s going to happen once the tournament starts. It’s about predicting what the field is going to look like and that’s probably harder than predicting what the tournament is going to do once it starts. Although they’re both obviously a lot of guesswork involved in trying to predict what’s going to happen in a single elimination tournament, but bracketology wasn’t a thing when I started doing it. That wasn’t even a word. 

Jerry Palm: 

I’ve been doing this since 1994 and I was the first person to do it. Joe and Artie was starting at ESPN at the same time. Joe and I approach it in different ways. I’m much more about the numbers behind the selection of the bracket and Joe really just talks about the bracket itself, but it’s been the two of us since 1994 and now there’s like 200, 250 people doing brackets. It’s really taken off into, if you’ve got a computer and too much time on your hands, this is something you can do. 

Kate Young: 

You can make dozens of them, right? There’s no limit. 

Jerry Palm: 

Yeah, that’s right. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s talk about if you’re a newbie, if you’re a sports expert, someone like Derek, what is your best advice you can give when it comes to the approach of making picks for your bracket this year? 

Jerry Palm: 

Well, the main thing is trying to where the upsets will be because anybody can fill out a bracket with all of the favorites, the higher seed going all the way through, and then at the Final Four you’ve got all the one seeds and you just, I guess pick the team you think are better. But knowing where the upsets are going to be, that’s a lot more art than it is science because it only takes one bad day for a very good team to be sent home. The best teams in the tournament usually have a dominant player, an NBA level talent on that roster. 

Jerry Palm: 

This year, there’s a lot of those teams and a lot of those guys are freshmen, but the freshman class this year is full of guys that are probably going to get picked in the first round of the draft and those teams, they can’t all get to the Final Four, but those are the kinds of teams that usually have success getting to a championship and winning a championship. It’s pretty rare that a team wins a championship without a first round NBA player on the roster. 

Jerry Palm: 

Sometimes you don’t know that that team has got a first round guy until they win a championship and now all of a sudden the scouts are paying attention, so sometimes that happens too, but it’s really, talent wins out. In the end, more often than not, talent is going to win out and teams that could have got one dominant guy especially seem to do pretty well in this tournament. 

Kate Young: 

It’s interesting that you say that about the NBA’s talent because I just keep thinking about Zach Edey and we had that when we were in the championship, right. 

Jerry Palm: 

What’s funny about that is when Purdue was going into that tournament, people were still not sure Zach Edey was a first round player. There weren’t debate whether or not Zach Edey could play in the NBA, but he’s the two-time national player of the year. That’s good enough. And of course he’s a top-ten pick and when he’s healthy, he’s been a terror for the Grizzlies. He’s been tearing it up. He’s doing a great job in the NBA and hopefully he can stay healthy and continue to do that. 

Derek Schultz: 

To bring people behind the curtain, Jerry, there are a lot of factors to weigh when evaluating teams and at the end of the day, these are human beings that are in a room together that are talking about doing this bracket and you’re trying to predict what humans are going to do, which we know is always difficult regardless of what field that you’re in. But what are some of the factors that you weigh the most heavily when you’re projecting your own bracket and trying to also evaluate what these people are going to do on the selection committee with the actual bracket. 

Jerry Palm: 

That’s the art part of it, right? Is that you’ve got a committee of people who have individually their own ideas of what they like out of a team. There’s a lot of data behind it when primarily the data starts with the net ranking system, which is the NCAA’s creation. It’s a way to rank teams. It’s got some margin of victory type components in it, which the old one, the RPI did not have, so it’s a little more sophisticated. 

Jerry Palm: 

It actually resembles Ken Pomeroy’s rankings, which are some of the most famous independent ranking system is his, and they’re very similar in a lot of ways, but the numbers don’t make decisions. The numbers help inform the decision makers, but they have quadrants, the quality of your opponent, quad one, quad two, quad three, quad four, so your best opponents are in quad one. So they want to see teams that have been successful against other very good teams, and those are the teams that are going to be the most rewarded. Teams with really good records against really good schedules are always going to be the higher seeded teams in this tournament. 

Jerry Palm: 

But there’s a lot of, especially when you get to the last few teams into the bracket as that large team, there’s a lot of team 5, 6, 7 that all look the same in different ways, same quality but in different ways. So what is this committee going to favor? Are they going to favor a strength of schedule? Are they going to favor a really good win? And it changes because the committee changes every year. They have three or four new members every year, so that’s the art part. That’s why I always say it’s more art than it is science. The data doesn’t really change in terms of what you’re looking at, but how this committee is going to interpret it may very well change. 

Kate Young: 

I’m sure a lot of our listeners have the stories of maybe their grandma who doesn’t know anything about basketball wins the family tournament or a coworker who’s never seen a game in their life wins. Any fun unconventional stories you have from all of your years doing this of ways that people choose their bracket that happened to be a success. 

Jerry Palm: 

There are ways that are not what you call merit based and if those are successful, that’s just happenstance. I’ve seen people pick based on jersey colors. I like blue, so I’m going to pick teams that wear blue, and there’s a lot of teams that wear blue, so you can do that. If you want to pick orange, you’re kind of limited to say Syracuse and Illinois. There aren’t a lot of teams out there wearing orange, but yeah, jersey colors. 

Jerry Palm: 

There are some that based on the attractiveness of a coach, and that’s about as random as you can be. Some of them pick names out of a hat. If you’re not going to do something merit based, you might as well do something that kind of strange and interesting, but most will try and predict who the actual better teams are. Who’s going to win games even if you’re not the better team. 

Derek Schultz: 

My buddy’s daughter nailed the Yukon Butler final 15 or whatever years ago because fluffy husky against cute bulldog and that made the final two team standing. 

Jerry Palm: 

Yeah. There are worst ways to do it probably. 

Derek Schultz: 

You had mentioned the evolution from RPI to net. How else have you seen bracket selections evolve over the years? I’m old enough to remember when your last 10 games was part of the selection, right? Things like that have changed, but also geography has become a big deal here as opposed to new seeds. And do you believe that even AI could creep its way into this? Certainly when you make your bracketology projection, maybe you could just type that into some sort of an AI algorithm. I don’t know, but you’ve been around this for a long time. What are all the changes that you’ve noticed with this process? 

Jerry Palm: 

The biggest change obviously is RPI to net. RPI was a blunt instrument and not very sophisticated and the net is much more, so the data that the committee is relying on as sort of a base is a better set of data. Nothing is really perfect. You’re talking about 30-some games per team. I mean, it’s a lot better in basketball than you couldn’t even do something like this in football because you don’t have enough teams playing enough games. But the RPI, yeah, was kind of a blunt instrument. 

Jerry Palm: 

The committee’s gotten bigger. They have made sure that they are diverse geographically in particular. There’s a lot more responsibility now I think on committee members than there used to be at the very beginning. They’re out watching games. These guys are athletic, they have other jobs. They’re like athletic directors and conference commissioners and they have other jobs to do, but this is now kind of a bigger job, I think, than it used to be for each individual committee member. 

Jerry Palm: 

The committee itself is bigger, but the actual selection process, I think they’ve given themselves more data to make decisions with and they’ve broken it down differently than they used to. So I think that that helps, but I think in the end, the process is the same. We’ve got all this data that helps us measure the quality of teams. We’re selecting the best 34 at-large teams and we have 31 or 2 conference champions, so I think we’re up to 37 at-large teams, but that’s our job is to select the best at-large teams, feed the teams the best we can and create a bracket that’s as fair as they possibly can. That’s always been the goal. 

Derek Schultz: 

Kate has had people on this show that have said, “Hey, I grew up and I wanted to be an astronaut,” or, “I grew up and I wanted to be a business leader, CEO type.” I don’t think anybody’s ever said, “I grew up and wanted to be a bracketologist,” notably because like you said, Jerry, that didn’t exist back when you were growing up, but what appealed to you about this field? And you kind of alluded to your origin story in 1994 and kind of starting this up, but what is the genesis of Jerry Palm, nationally respected bracketologist 30 plus years later? 

Jerry Palm: 

Yeah, so in 1994, I bought a new computer and some new software and I wanted to find a way to teach myself how to use it. Right around that time, I saw an article, I think Mike DeCoursey wrote in The Sporting News about how the RPI formula had changed, and I thought, oh, well, I’ve got this database. I could probably recreate that. Back then, I had to get scores from the library newspaper. We didn’t have team website. In fact, AOL was about all we had, and it was still pretty primitive in 1994, and there were some basic caveman writing on the wall message boards. And it was a lot of hand work to try and put all of this together, but I was teaching myself technology because I was a programmer. That’s what I did. 

Jerry Palm: 

I shared it, once I got an RPI, I shared it thinking nobody would care, literally enough people to fit in a minivan would care, but I kept getting responses, “Show me more. Send it to my email, blah, blah, blah.” The next year I created … AOL gave us a one-page web page, so I put my RPI up on that one page web page, that was the beginning of what turned … Well, it was eventually going to become collegerpi.com and now palmbrackets.com. But people just kept finding it and they were interested and I kept answering questions that people had and it just snowballed. I could have never predicted this would be my life. When I was a kid, I always wanted to be in sports, but I would’ve never predicted this is how it would happen. 

Kate Young: 

As I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, we wanted to dig deeper with Jerry into what the term bracketologist really means. What role does he play each March ahead of and during the big tournament and what’s a day in the life look like for him? Here’s Jerry. 

Jerry Palm: 

This time of year, I start out pretty much every day of the season, I enter scores into my database, I generate data used to create the web pages on my site. I can upload flat files of data for pages that are dynamically generated, and then there are static pages. I just update my website and it takes, I mean, depending on how many games there were the night before, it can take about an hour to do all that. And then this time of year, there’s bracket projections twice a week, that’ll increase. I’m going to start Bubble Watch here pretty soon, and so that’ll be a daily update thing as well. 

Jerry Palm: 

So the time you spend on it increases as you go on. And then I do other things like this and radio interviews and the occasional TV or video appearance, a lot of media commitments and those also increase over the next month of the season up until Selection Sunday. And it’ll be a little bit different for me this year because I’m not doing things for CBS. So I don’t know if that’s going to mean more independent stuff or maybe just less stuff altogether because obviously when I was working for CBS, they’re the network that broadcasts the tournament, so they’ve put a lot of resources into it. 

Derek Schultz: 

Jerry, there are metrics and things that we talked about like nets and you had mentioned Ken Pomeroy’s rankings, Torvik has rankings. There are basketball power indexes all over the place. As you said, there are 200-plus people that probably do this now, but if you were to distill this to a level that people can understand in layman’s terms, is the core of the NCAA tournament selection, and I understand that it goes much deeper than this, is it still about who did you play, who did you beat? 

Jerry Palm: 

Yes, absolutely. Who did you play and who did you beat? They just want to find different ways to measure it. And they’ve got six computer rankings on the team sheets. So they’ve got Ken Pomeroy’s and Torvik’s, two that you mentioned. They’ve got two from ESPN, Kevin Pogge’s rankings, he’s in athletics at Michigan State and has got his own rankings and all of those are very good, and they added wins above bubble this year, which is kind of a known metric among the geeks in the sport. 

Jerry Palm: 

It’s just different opinions. Now I think the net and Ken Pomeroy’s rankings and Bart Torvik’s rankings are so similar that having all three of them is a bit redundant, but the others, the ones that are especially less margin of victory impacted are going to be more different from each other. But that’s fine. Those are well-known names and I think that’s part of why the committee chose them because it lends credibility to what they’re doing when they have rankings from people like Ken Pomeroy who’s basically the godfather of all of this. 

Derek Schultz: 

I feel like that scene from the office where Michael Scott says, “Hey, why don’t you explain this to me like I’m a five-year-old?” But there’s another question that sort of deals with that. You brought up the term bubble. There’s always been this fun aspect of the NCAA tournament at the end of the regular season as teams are trying to fight their way into the field and they’re right on the cut line, but what does bubble mean? And when you say, “This team’s bubble burst,” what are we talking about? 

Jerry Palm: 

There are teams that you would consider locks or near locks for the NCAA tournament already, right? There’s probably at least a couple of dozen of those teams that, even if they go south right now, is probably still going to make the NCAA tournament. Other teams can play their way in or play their way out. That’s the bubble. Teams that can play their way in or out realistically, that’s a pretty big list of teams because there’s so many games left and we’re not even talking about conference tournaments yet. But that’s really what the bubble is, it’s the list of teams that still have some chance of playing their way into an at-large spot if they need it or playing their way out if they’re already in that position. 

Kate Young: 

For non-experts, what kind of tools, what can we look at to inform our bracket picks? Where should we start? 

Jerry Palm: 

I would start with some of the rankings. I mean, I did the actual formulas that go into it, if you even saw them. Might not mean anything to you, but there are predictive metrics and Ken Pomeroy’s is one of them. Torvik’s is them where they’re really designed to predict winners, and in some cases scoring margins. So I think it’s more obvious in Ken Pomeroy’s how to predict scoring margin, if you read through it. I mean, you could take a ranking like that and just go with that if you want, but of course the real winners when it comes to brackets are going to be the ones that can correctly predict upsets. 

Jerry Palm: 

I look for teams that have already done that kind of a thing in the regular season, that have found a way to beat teams that are thought to be better off their home floor because the tournament is not played on home floor. So teams that have been good road teams, teams that have been good on neutral courts and even ones, especially if they’ve been able to beat teams that are thought to be better in those environments are the kinds of teams I think that can do well in an NCAA tournament environment because they’ve already had success against teams in that environment. And I think that teams that have got NBA talent. If you’ve got a first round NBA guy, that helps a lot when you’re talking about going deep into an NCAA tournament. 

Kate Young: 

Derek and I were prepping for this interview and he was nerding out. But I’m curious your take, Jerry, how does geography, you talked about home court advantage, are teams upsetting teams on different courts? How does geography play into some of these bracket picks and seedings and rankings? 

Jerry Palm: 

When the committee puts the bracket together, they start at the top with the number one team. That team gets to choose which regional they’re in and which sub-regional they’re in, first and second round site. Everybody else gets placed as close as they possibly can to home, wherever home is for them. But when you get to the fourth number one seed, there’s only one region left. That might not be your best region, but you still get it because you’re the fourth one. So the fourth one on each line sometimes gets a little less geographic preference than they might’ve gotten had they been the first one on the line below. 

Jerry Palm: 

But anyways, that’s how those decisions are made. They go one through 68 through the field and they put teams as close as they possibly can to what’s available to them. They do want to keep teams as close to home as possible, and there are rules about keeping teams from the same conference separated. That gets into the mix as well. And so that’s why sometimes teams, you think, well, why isn’t Purdue in Chicago? They could have been in Chicago, but another Big Ten team is already in Chicago and Purdue can’t be in the same region with them on a different line because they would meet too soon in the tournament. So there are rules like that to keep teams from the same conference away from each other for as long as possible. 

Kate Young: 

I think Derek gave the example of Purdue played in Detroit recently, so that’s not too far away for Purdue fans to get to, right? 

Derek Schultz: 

And Indianapolis before then, the 2024 run- 

Kate Young: 

Super close. 

Derek Schultz: 

… played in Indy and then Detroit. 

Jerry Palm: 

And Purdue was the number one seed that year. So I think UConn was overall number one, but Purdue got geographic preference because they were the second team going into the bracket. So those were the two closest site for people from West Lafayette, and that’s how they determine that. 

Kate Young: 

So Jerry, we talked about your degree from Purdue, you have a bachelor of science, you have a background in computer science. How did that foundation with the math, the statistics shape your career early on for this career in bracketology? 

Jerry Palm: 

Yeah. My career early on was a programmer for lawyers and bankers, but before I started doing this, I was always good at math. In high school, I was a state champion in math for whatever that means, but computers in schools were a new thing. I had my honors math teacher in junior high gave us a week in a computer with yellow tape coming out the side, and my class at Purdue was the first computer science class that did not have to use punch cards, but I’m a geek, so I did a program on punch cards anyway. 

Jerry Palm: 

So I’ve seen a lot of technology changes over the years, but the math background has helped me with this. This isn’t super advanced math, doing what I do, but it’s always been as part of what has made it interesting for me is that I’m dealing with formulas and I can put it into my computer and I can apply the skills that I’m good at to this. And so that’s part of what made it fun for me to even give it a try and really just to do it for my own edification. I never thought it would turn into something like this. 

Derek Schultz: 

So we learned about Jerry Palm, the math geek, and I say that term lovingly, Jerry. What about Jerry Palm, the sports geek and specifically basketball. We know that you’re a dad and your two sons also are Boilermakers. I believe you were there in the very early Gene Keady years and one of those Big Ten championship teams would’ve been around when you were there in 1984. Did you grow up in a hoops family and is that when the bug bit you? 

Jerry Palm: 

My mom and dad both were really into sports. They met at Purdue. I was born at Purdue when they were still students. I actually have 10 members of my extended family that have been to Purdue or graduated from Purdue, or currently at Purdue, and six of us marched in the band. 

Derek Schultz: 

Wow. 

Jerry Palm: 

Purdue has always been a part of my life. My dad took me to games when I was young. I was always going to go to Purdue. Purdue was good at what I wanted to do, which obviously they were. Purdue’s, I don’t even know what my life would be like if it wasn’t Purdue. I mean, it would be something and maybe it would be good. I don’t know. But Purdue has always been an important part of my life. I was the president of the Purdue Club of Chicago. I got involved as an alumni pretty early on. I’ve always tried to do what I can to help. It’s really been an important part of my life and it will always be an important part of my life. 

Kate Young: 

We have had married couples, couples who have met at Purdue. We have never had a guest who was born on campus while their parents were at Purdue. I love it. 

Jerry Palm: 

Okay, technically, I was born at home hospital in Lafayette, which they have since shut down. 

Kate Young: 

A true Boilermaker. You’ve often said you’re the only media member with a computer science degree. What unique perspective has that background given you in your field? 

Jerry Palm: 

It means that when I talk to people, their eyes glaze over. 

Kate Young: 

Hey, we’ve been pretty captivated today. 

Jerry Palm: 

No, I come at things with a much more analytical mind, I think, than the typical sports writer, but I don’t mean that as a way of denigrating sports writers because it’s not. I think most sports writers I come in contact with are all very good at what they do. I really like the guys that cover Purdue. They do a great job. It’s something I kind of always wanted to do, but I wasn’t really 100% cut out for it. I mean, I was on my high school paper. I was the editor of my high school paper once. I was never going to study journalism. Computers were definitely more my thing, but it’s now funny that I’m in a weird way a journalist and I combined that. 

Jerry Palm: 

As one of the many things that are passions of mine or things that I enjoy into this job, journalism was one that … I don’t think real journalists would probably think of me as a serious journalist because I don’t do a lot of the same things that they do, and my writing is very focused on one thing, but I get to watch games from press boxes or wherever they have you in a basketball arena. It’s been nice to be able to learn about that part of this job. There’s some really good people that are journalists and some outstanding writers, and I get to learn from some of them, and I’ve always appreciated that part of this job. 

Derek Schultz: 

How much did your participation in the All-American Marching Band fuel that obvious pride that you have in your alma mater, and how has being part of Purdue’s band impacted your life and career? 

Jerry Palm: 

Most of my better friends now are Purdue Band. The group that we were with our first year at Purdue was Bill Moffat’s first year as the band director at Purdue. We still refer to ourselves as the Moffat kids. When we come back for alumni band, we’re a big group. For people that have been out of band for 40 years, we’re a pretty sizable alumni group, so it’s always been a close-knit group of people from way back then that we’re still in touch with thanks to social media, that’s easier now than it was when we first started coming out of school. But it’s definitely shaped my life in ways … Well, like I said, six members of my extended family, Purdue All-American Marching Band, including my two sons that are there now. It’s been a big part of my life and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. 

Kate Young: 

Anytime we feature any part of All-American Marching Band on the podcast, the engagement on social media, the listens, the views, it’s phenomenal. So I love hearing that. What would you say to Purdue students who are interested in using their STEM skills in a sports focused career? 

Jerry Palm: 

Get involved with the new program they’re starting. There’s going to be a sports management and analytics … I’m probably getting the name wrong. Jeanne Boyd is starting that program and I know her from her days at the NCAA, so I’ve known her a very long time. She’s great. I would start there. If you’re a STEM person and you want to get into sports analytics, if you’re coming to Purdue, I would get into that program. 

Jerry Palm: 

I don’t know if you can get a degree in it, I’m not sure because it’s all brand new or if you can get a minor or how that works, but I would get involved with that. I wish we had it when I was in school. I might’ve even majored in that or minored in it, something like that, with my computer skills. I may go back and take a class now if I ever have time. I would get started that way right off the bat. 

Kate Young: 

Friend of the pod, right, Derek? 

Derek Schultz: 

That’s right. Jeanne Boyd, a former guest here on This is Purdue as well. 

Jerry Palm: 

I can believe that because her experience with the NCAA, her and Greg Shaheen were kind of running things there for a long time when I first got involved in this, and they’re just two of the best people I’ve ever met in this business. 

Derek Schultz: 

When we get back to this men’s college basketball season, what do you make of how this season is shaping up? You mentioned the freshmen class. Something else that’s jumped out to me is just the strength of the teams at the top. I think we’re especially seeing it in the Big Ten this year where you might have as many as five true national title contenders just in that league, but what will you be paying close attention to as we approach the end of the regular season? 

Jerry Palm: 

Yeah, I mean, the Big Ten is really top-heavy. The Big 12 is especially top-heavy because I’ve got six teams in the top 20 from the Big 12, and then only maybe one other team from that league in the bracket. I’ve been going nine or 10 deep with Big Ten teams and five of them in the top 16. So those two leagues have been really dominant at the top of college basketball. But then you still have Duke, you still have Gonzaga, you have some of the names that you’re familiar with in other conferences as well, and I wouldn’t rule out, although I don’t have a lot of SEC teams in the upper part of the bracket, that’s a tough league with some talented people. 

Jerry Palm: 

The University of Florida, the defending champion is starting to come on strong now. It’s going to be a really competitive tournament at the top of the bracket. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see a four or five seed win it because they’re not going to be that much worse than the one. 

Kate Young: 

How do you think the field of bracketology will evolve in the future, Jerry? What do you see for it? 

Jerry Palm: 

It really is something that you don’t control the source information. So how it can change is the NCAA decides to add more teams to the tournament, which by the way, I could not be more against adding more teams to the tournament. I’m steadfastly in favor of going back to 64. That was perfect. So that’s one of the ways that it can change. They can change the metrics and if there’s more advanced science that’ll help them, they can do that. But I think the biggest change, if it happened, would be expanding the tournament and diluting it further. 

Derek Schultz: 

Finally, Jerry, we have to ask understanding your job is to project the field, not necessarily what happens after that, but do you have any big predictions for the 2026 NCAA tournament? 

Jerry Palm: 

Well, I don’t know if it’s considered big or not, but I like the Boilers chances even after that three game skid. I mean, this is a veteran team with an all-American point guard. I talked about needing an NBA type of player. Braden Smith is the best at his position in college basketball. He’s 6-foot, maybe. Guys my size don’t usually play in the NBA because the question is, who do you guard? And the last person we had this size was Carsen Edwards who can just score in buckets, but who do you guard? 

Jerry Palm: 

So Braden Smith is probably going to get a shot at the NBA. I don’t know if anyone will take him in the first round because of his size, which would be a shame because I think Braden has a chance to be a good player in that league, especially with the way he sees the floor. So for Purdue though, that’s the guy. That’s the guy that a lot of these big time freshmen that you’re going to see their names called early in the draft. I think that Braden will probably get drafted and he may get drafted in the first round, and if he were 6’4″, he’d be a top pick. Just it’s that simple, but anybody in the NBA who undersells him or thinks that he can’t do it is going to be shocked because there isn’t anything Braden can’t do. 

Kate Young: 

I love it. I always have the Boilermakers winning the bracket just because it’s a matter of principle. You know? 

Jerry Palm: 

Yeah, I understand that. I have at times not picked them to win it, and it’s usually a little more obvious. I’m sure I will have at least one bracket this year with Purdue winning it. This team is good enough to do that. 

Kate Young: 

I love it. Well, Jerry, we can’t thank you enough for joining us. It was a pleasure. Anything I missed here? Anything else you want to tell our listeners or viewers today? 

Jerry Palm: 

No, just come find me at palmbrackets.com and feel free to reach out. There are ways to reach me there. You can always reach me on social media, but I always like engaging with the fans. That’s one of my favorite parts of the job, and even when we don’t agree, and sometimes that could even be more fun than when we do. 

Kate Young: 

I love it. We’ll link that in our show notes for everyone, and we’ll be tagging Jerry on X as well. So Derek, it was so fun to have a co-host. Thank you so much. 

Derek Schultz: 

Yeah, my pleasure. And Jerry, we’ll find you at Lucas Oil Stadium coming up in April as well. I’ll give you a high five. How about that? 

Jerry Palm: 

Yeah, I’m looking forward to Indianapolis for sure. 

Kate Young: 

That was a fun one. We hope you all learned at least one tip when it comes to filling out your own tournament brackets this year, be sure to check out our YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue for additional bonus content with Jerry. He discusses the reasoning behind some of those historic upsets between 5 seed and 12 seed teams. Plus he talks about the strategy of going chalk, which is something that I do every year, apparently. Guilty as charged. But hey, after this episode, I’m going to take some of Jerry’s tips to heart and I’m going to change up my strategy a little. 

Kate Young: 

Also, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and if you love this episode, leave us a review. We’d love to hear from you. This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young and special thanks to my co-host on this episode, Derek Schultz. He’s also joining me for our next episode on March 19th with sports journalist and author Mark Montieth, so stay tuned. 

Kate Young: 

Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshi. And our creative production manager is Dalani Young. 

Kate Young: 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe, and don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler up.

Beth McCuskey: 

This is Beth McCuskey. And you’re listening to This Is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young. And you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Beth McCuskey: 

Resilience, in my mind, is really about how do you bounce back from failure? How do you take it? How do you handle disappointment? And teaching our students that skillset, I think, is just so important. That’s learned at home too. That’s the state finals that you didn’t win as a basketball team. That’s the work so hard to get a good grade and it didn’t happen for you. How do you help students process that, learn from that, and move forward? 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Beth McCuskey, Vice Provost for Student Life at Purdue University. Beth is a national thought leader in student mental health. And she recently co-authored an upcoming book titled The Oxford Handbook of Well-Being in Higher Education, which covers why wellness is critical in college, especially in today’s day and age. Purdue’s focus on student well-being and Beth and her team’s vital institutional efforts was also featured in Forbes, so she’s the perfect person to help us dig into two timely questions. Number one, how generational differences have shaped what wellness looks like for college students. And number two, how parents, families, mentors, and educators can prepare high school students to thrive in college. 

This conversation with Beth was super interesting and thoughtful. We discuss resiliency when it comes to overcoming failure, and how adults and other mentors can help foster resiliency skills for their students at home. Plus, we dig into social learning loss, which many people experienced during the COVID-19 pandemic, and how the emergence of social media and now AI have played a role in student well-being across generations. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Beth. 

Beth, thank you so much for joining us on This Is Purdue, the official university podcast. We’re going to dive into a topic that impacts all students today, and that’s well-being. We are thrilled to have you. Thanks for coming. 

Beth McCuskey: 

And absolutely thrilled to be here. I admire your work. And it’s just great to be part of your podcast. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you. Thank you so much. Let’s dive right into it because this is really pressing. This isn’t just a couple students here and there who are struggling. It’s a widespread issue. Your upcoming book cites that 44% of college students are experiencing depression symptoms, and then 37% are struggling with anxiety. How do these stats underscore the need for stronger support and resources for students? 

Beth McCuskey: 

The statistics are pretty profound. That particular set came from Healthy Minds, the Healthy Minds Network. They’re a couple years old, but that number is pretty consistent with what we see here at Purdue as well as really with that age population overall, not just college students. When we think about that, we know that we have to be supportive. One of our jobs in student life is to meet students where they are. And they’re coming in and needing this extra support. We do that in two ways. First, we ramped up what we’re doing in CAPS, our counseling center, added staff to be able to meet those needs, build out a different timeline to support those students. And really just looking at it from a meeting the mental health demand process, took those steps. The other side of it, though, is really looking at the culture as a whole. And how do we build those support networks to support students? 

And one of the things that’s really important, every problem is not a mental health challenge. Every depressive moment is not necessarily a clinical depression. Helping our students tease out when we need that clinical support, but where we also might need a friendly face, a person to talk to, someone to help guide through a situation. 

Kate Young: 

I love that distinction. Sometimes it might just be a student having a bad day- 

Beth McCuskey: 

Exactly. 

Kate Young: 

… instead of needing clinical help. 

Beth McCuskey: 

Exactly right. 

Kate Young: 

Your upcoming book is titled The Oxford Handbook of Well-Being in Higher Education. You’re a co-author on it. So well-being is part of that book title, but let’s dig into what well-being means to you. 

Beth McCuskey: 

I am blessed to be working with my co-editor, who’s actually the lead editor, Louis Tay. He is a psychologist by training, organizational psychologist here at Purdue, a professor, extremely prolific. He is a great researcher. And together, he brings the research side and I bring the applied side. For our book, we looked at well-being as very holistic in nature. We want to have our students be flourishing in various domains in life, not just academically, that’s obviously very important, but also socially, even financially, making sure that they’re taking care of their finances appropriately and have options available to them to learn more in that space, looking at how they get along, whether it’s academically, socially, or even just exercise and taking care of their body. Whatever domains are important to students, we want to be there to support them and we want them to flourish in those spaces. 

Kate Young: 

What are some of those internal and external factors that can influence students’ well-being? 

Beth McCuskey: 

We like to look at things both psychological, so how do I handle things as a human? But then also sociological, so how does the community support an individual? And so from the human side, it’s how am I taking care of myself? Do I have the skillset? Do I have resiliency skills? Am I getting enough sleep? Am I going to the gym? Am I doing things to take care of me? And how do I build out that skillset? On the sociological side, it’s really looking at our community as a whole. And how are we really building out that safety net to support our students through their academic journey? 

Kate Young: 

And you talked about some of the ups and downs of life. 

Beth McCuskey: 

One of the things we know is that failure is an important part of the experience. And if you’re taking risks … And we want students, we want all of us to take risk because that means that we’re trying new things. And so when we take risks, we are bound to fall on our face sometimes. That is a normal part of development. We want people to realize that just because you fail, you can still pick up and go. That doesn’t mean you don’t take time for yourself, you don’t be mad about it or sad about it. That’s normal. That’s fine. But then what do you do? And can you learn from that mistake? Can you pick apart what happened? And then how do you translate that to the next phase? 

Kate Young: 

And you touched on sometimes the really exciting highs of your life are also stressful. I was thinking wedding planning is a great example of that. 

Beth McCuskey: 

Wedding planning is a great example. With students, we think of those transitions and how stressful those can be. And so we think of our brand new students coming into higher education, super excited to be here, but that’s also a stressful time. And then similarly, as you’re thinking about that next phase and you’re getting ready to graduate and take on life in a new way, that’s also stressful too. Even those highs can be moments of stress. And so just helping people normalize that and work through it. 

Kate Young: 

That makes total sense. I remember coming to Purdue and your parents aren’t around. You don’t have maybe home-cooked meals. There are so many different things. And then again, when you’re graduating and maybe students don’t have a job yet or that stress, it’s exciting to be graduating and being part of that next chapter, but if you don’t know what’s coming, that’s also very stressful. 

Beth McCuskey: 

It is. It’s tough to … Even contemplating moving to a new place can be stressful. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. So how are universities like Purdue adapting to this need of this well-being journey for students? 

Beth McCuskey: 

I think on multiple fronts. And so when we first started seeing this demand increase for mental health services, I think the first thing out of the gate was to ramp up our counseling services. And this is true across the board. People added staff, we added therapists, but we got to this point where we realized it was definitely more than that, that we had to start building out a culture that supports. We have done things at Purdue, and this actually predates some of the changes in CAPS. We have a model called Student of Concern, and we talk about that all over the place. Students know this, faculty know this. Heck, we even had an Uber driver who knew this. So if there is concern about a student, they can fill out a quick online form, and our Dean of Students’ office will reach out to that student and just check in with them and make sure they’re doing okay. 

That is one part of our safety network that we build in to be supportive. So we do things like that, we have the therapy services, but we’re also looking at ways to help students help each other. So peer networks are crucial. Candidly, students would rather hear from each other than from me. How do we tap into their natural curiosity and their energy in this space? And so several examples include we have a group called the Mental Health Action Week. It’s a student organization now, but that model was actually started by our student government several years ago. And it’s just a time to celebrate understanding about mental health, making sure people are aware of resources, but also doing some fun things just for stress busters and to make things a little bit easier. Our CAPS office, we have a phenomenal guy that leads our well-being division and our counseling services, Chris Hanes. 

He started a CAPS ambassador program, and these are students who understand the services offered in CAPS, can talk about mental health. They’re absolutely not therapists, they’re students, but they just help their fellow students recognize what’s available to them. He just had the call-out for the next season’s ambassadors and had 80 students interested in the role, so students are very, very interested in this. 

Kate Young: 

From all of your experiences in higher ed, and even you said that your children are Millennials, how is this conversation surrounding well-being different across the generations from Millennials to Gen Z and now Gen Alpha coming up? 

Beth McCuskey: 

I love talking about generations, but I also … There has to be a caveat too because sometimes we lump people together in generations and assume that you’re a Millennial, therefore you must be. And that’s absolutely not true. Discussions about generations are really about shared experiences of an age group. So that’s essentially what we’re talking about here. But when we look back, my career has been over 30 years in higher education. And I remember as a very early career person, the beginning of the Millennials coming in. Millennials weren’t talking about well-being at all. Millennials were talking about their experiences. They wanted to touch and experience every facet of higher education. They wanted to join lots of organizations. They may have changed their major a few times. They wanted to experience it all. The other component of Millennials that change higher education, I believe, since has been the involvement of parents. 

So Millennials brought their parents to college. Parents jumped in in huge ways in terms of trying to pave the way for their students. So when I look back at that era, which was most of the 2000s, the early 2000s, that was kind of what we were experiencing. So you flash forward, and Gen Z enter college in the mid-teens, and that’s where we started seeing some of the increase for mental health services. And I attribute some of this to a generational shift that happened in terms of what this group wanted out of their collegiate experience. So where Millennials were very focused on those experiences, Gen Z just wanted the outcomes. And so they’re looking at what is next? And how do I prepare myself for that? Looking at college as kind of a ladder that they’re climbing to the next thing. Through this process, they are putting so much pressure on themselves to excel and to be the best and to have grand opportunities in life that they sometimes need that extra support. 

And so when we’re thinking ahead now, Gen Alpha’s, by the numbers, probably a few years out, but I’m already seeing some shifts in how students are approaching things. We are seeing far more desire to be involved again. I mentioned CAPS ambassadors jumping in and 80 people wanting to do this work. We’re seeing that all over the place. Students are flourishing in huge ways. Another nuance we’re seeing, we do the Gallup Strengths, which is a component of the first year program, our BGR program. The last two years, we’ve seen, in the top five strengths of our students, empathy come out. And so this concern for others, I think, is evolving. There is definitely a shift from not caring too much about well-being to very focused on well-being in part because of this outcome to this, I believe, will be a highly engaged group again, but with this focus on well-being continuing. 

The other component I’d like to share here, I think technology has played a role in every one of these generations. And so when you think about Millennials, Millennials inherited the internet. They were the first generation that grew up online, but they were doing this from dial-up modems at home as children, not from the internet in their pocket, which is what Gen Z brings to the table. They have the smartphone. They can access the internet at all times. Social media has become prevalent, and so they’re engaged in that space considerably. And for the Alphas coming in next, AI is going to be the big technology shift. And I suspect that that will transform how they expect their experiences to be, but also how we do our work to support them. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. That’s all so interesting. Going back to Gen Z too, and I know when we talked earlier, you had said they want everything to be linear, and that’s not how life is. There’s going to be things that don’t work out their way. Do you think that social media had an impact on that? They’re seeing these people with these, “Perfect lives,” or they’re on Instagram and they see all these glossy, incredible things, and they think that everyone can have that or they specifically can have access to that? 

Beth McCuskey: 

I think social media absolutely plays a role here. There’s a lot of different research. In fact, we have a chapter in our book about social media. It’s kind of all over the place. For students who have healthy self-esteem and use online to explore new options, new ways of doing things, there is a healthy approach that works. I think for students who are using their tools to compare themselves, who may feel that they’re left out or that they’ll never excel, that can be a problem. I also think that sometimes people put personas that are a little maybe not quite themselves, so they’re putting these aspirational personas on social media and seeing how those get likes. And sometimes that can be … It can just be problematic because if you’re looking for likes for something that you’re really not, what does that say to you? And so I think there’s positives with social media use, but absolutely, the comparison component has been a major issue. 

There’s just been a study. It’s in the Journal of the American Medical Association online version. They basically did a social media break or a smartphone break for a week. And they used mental health tools for depression and anxiety, for example, to assess pre and post. And these individuals that participated had higher overall well-being, so lower scores on these indicators for depression and for anxiety. And so there’s something there too. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. So when I was at Purdue, I did not have internet on my phone. I did not have a smartphone until I was 22 or 23. It was just so much more like living in the moment and you didn’t know where people were and you didn’t know what people were posting or what … And there was just something to that that made life a lot easier, I think. 

Beth McCuskey: 

I agree. I think the online presence that’s continually in our face has just added a layer of complexity. It’s just tough to navigate. 

Kate Young: 

Going back to the younger generations having these more open conversations about mental health, older generations had to navigate a lot of different tough things too. So where do you think this shift developed when it comes to access to more mental health resources? And what do you think that means for current students? 

Beth McCuskey: 

First, I think that every generation has kind of badgered the people who follow. I just think of the Baby Boomers, for example. They had the long hair, right? So cut your hair, hippies, right? And they pushed envelopes right and left. And the music, right? Rock and roll. My goodness. How horrible is rock and roll? They rocked the world in the ’60s and ’70s, and took a lot of flak for it from their elders. I think there are examples, you could probably just research this online, where there will be some quote about the youth of today, and you think it’s a current quote, and it’s some historical figure from years ago making those comments. So I think that’s just part of human nature to do that. But with that said, my sense on some of this is that particularly, I think the 2008 financial crisis hit very hard. 

My theory, this is only my theory. I do not have research to support this. But my theory is that that moment in time, the leading edge of the Millennials had just entered the workforce. They, in many cases, might’ve been first in, first out in terms of layoffs. We had a group that was following that had a hard time maybe securing good employment. And they were very angry that they did not have a good experience, that their higher education did not guarantee them that dream job that they were looking for. And they, at that moment in time, were our largest generation. Their parents, the Baby Boomers, were the second-largest generation, who was also ticked. And so I think we had this generation that was just upset that they weren’t launching the way that they had hoped. And I think when the next generation came in in the teens, they believed that they were going to make the most of this experience. 

They weren’t going to waste time in college. They weren’t going to waste money trying new things. They were going to get through and they were going to get a good job. So I think it just transformed how they approached the experience. From there, I think the pressures were just pretty significant in terms of trying to get the best job and believing that maybe other people might be doing better than I am in this space. And then that pressure just leads to that cyclical stuff that’s really, really hard to navigate. The other point I want to make in this space, I think people were much more inclined to seek help now than they would’ve been a generation or two ago, and that’s a good thing. We don’t want to say that that’s a bad thing. And so I think that factors in. But I also think, and this is not belittling mental health at all, I think that somehow the language that’s used becomes more encompassing than what is actually happening. 

So saying, “I’m depressed,” and maybe filling out a survey that says I’m depressed may not be the same thing as being clinically depressed. I think that we’ve just expanded language to broaden these terms, these psychological terms to express our feelings as a whole. So that could be part of what’s happening as well. 

Kate Young: 

Those are great points. It’s something that I’m really interested in. I’ve listened to a couple podcasts about this and read articles. Obviously, the pandemic has changed so many things. So what are some of those educational and social challenges that are unique to Gen Z and Gen Alpha? 

Beth McCuskey: 

I think the pandemic was a rough time for everybody. I look back at how we handled things at Purdue, which was just a monumental time for us in terms of staying open during this time period. One of the things that we did during that era, we were really worried about our new beginner students because they came in during the pandemic with the social restrictions, masking, and social distancing. The events that we had might have had fewer people or sometimes we couldn’t have events at all, depending where we were with the cycle of the disease itself. We did a survey just to see how are people doing? And then we looked at various variables in terms of the people who were doing well versus maybe not so well. And one of the key things for students for belongingness was having more classes in-person. That in-person instruction matters in terms of people finding their home and finding that belongingness. 

It is that community of learning that residential campus represents, and that’s just such an important part of the fiber and really make an impact, I think, on students. We hear a lot about learning loss. We heard a lot about K-12 learning loss where these children were trying to take classes from home, their parents were trying to help teach them. And once school was back in session in kind of more normal ways, some of the test scores just weren’t there. But we also saw what we would call social learning loss. And so students coming into campus with their last year in high school, maybe last couple years in high school, where they were socially distanced, where they weren’t working with other people, where they didn’t have to make hard decisions or argue over with our friends, “Should we go here or there?” and just negotiate things out. 

And we saw a real uptick in conflicts, where people couldn’t resolve conflicts. It feels like in this era, we want our students to leave being able to solve conflicts and bring people together and solve these huge problems, but we’re seeing cases where students couldn’t ask their roommate to pick up their dirty clothes from the floor, right? So there’s a little loss there. 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Beth McCuskey: 

So we work to try to build out those skillsets for students. We got into doing some work in the conflict competence area. How do you resolve things? We have some online tools. And actually, some of my team members are teaching a course this spring in that space. And the online tools have been helpful. One of the spaces that’s using them is group projects. So if you think about it, when you’re working in a group with other students, you’ve got to negotiate it all. Who’s doing what part? And who’s turning what in when? So having a bit of a skill booster in this space, I think, is very helpful. 

Kate Young: 

And you just think about maybe they didn’t get to go to their high school prom, their graduation, these huge, monumental social events in your life that they had to miss out on. 

Beth McCuskey: 

Absolutely. Well, and just building the social skills to connect with people. When you come in from high school with a smaller number of people to a large campus, that’s tough in any times. So if you haven’t had that background to be able to navigate and socialize and build those connections, that just made it even harder. And so I think our work was a lot more how to bring people together, how to help support just those connections. A lot of our work was around our student organizations because a lot of the learning was lost when people graduated. And so if they didn’t have a normal experience of what that student organization did, for example, having to ramp that back up and teach again what this organization does. Let’s say they’re putting on a program, let’s talk about what that looks like and how we get it done and how you build the structure to do it. So there were absolutely some scaffolding taking place on that front too. 

Kate Young: 

We touched on this a little bit, this access to social media and now AI. How will that continue to impact the well-being of Gen Z and Gen Alpha college students? 

Beth McCuskey: 

I think that AI is one of the big unknowns. I think that there’s a lot of opportunity for AI to help distill information, to help us think through things, but we’re seeing more and more data that suggests that students are using AI tools as pseudo-coaches or therapists, asking mental health types of questions to these tools. And they’re not trained therapists. And in some cases, may provide false information. In some cases, are trained to reflect back to you what you want to hear, which may not be what you need to hear. I think there’s some danger with that aspect. But I also think that, again, we’re all going to be using AI. And so what tools might we develop that support in this space that aren’t algorithms that get people connected and hooked, but that are truly help tools that are grounded in research and how to best coach and help students? 

Kate Young: 

You used the word resilience earlier. What does resilience look like for today’s young people? 

Beth McCuskey: 

Resilience, in my mind, is really about how do you bounce back from failure? How do you take it? How do you handle disappointment? And teaching our students that skillset, I think, is just so important. And that’s learned at home too. That’s the state finals that you didn’t win as a basketball team. That’s the work so hard to get a good grade and it didn’t happen for you. How do you help students process that, learn from that, and move forward? 

Kate Young: 

Let’s dive into how people at home, parents, educators, coaches, how can they help build and foster resiliency within their young people? 

Beth McCuskey: 

I think out of the gate, normalizing failure, but learning from failure. None of us want to fail, and we certainly don’t want to fail all the time. But when that does happen, how do we help people pick up from that and kind of learn to advance themselves through that from what you learned from it? And so I think that’s absolutely one of the ways to build resilience. Another huge component of resilience is your social network. And we’re not talking online social networks. We’re talking humans. And so having a robust network of humans that you can rely on, that you can talk to, that you can trust, that represent lots of different aspects of you, whether that’s the field of study, whether that’s an interest or hobby, whether that’s spiritual, family, there are just so many ways to go here, but just having that network to be there for you. 

The flip side of that, though, is for networks to be most effective, you have to give back to that network. You have to be there for other people. And honestly, that act of giving is such a form of well-being too because you just feel good when you help somebody. 

Kate Young: 

It’s rewarding, right? 

Beth McCuskey: 

Absolutely rewarding. So helping students build those skillsets to pick themselves up from failure as well as ties into these networks and what that means for folks. 

Kate Young: 

Is there a top tip that you tell parents? “Hey, do this thing in high school to help prepare your students for college”? 

Beth McCuskey: 

Out of the gate, certainly the time management skills, study skills, coming in with, “It’s going to be tougher in college than it was in high school.” And so how do you allocate your time? And how do you build out those pieces? The other big one I would advocate for is help seeking. And so knowing when you need to ask for help. “I’m just not getting this.” And not being afraid to reach out and find the resources. Purdue is just full of resources all over the place who are eager to help students. And so finding ways to support students, to build out their own … It’s a form of resiliency too, knowing when to ask for help. 

Kate Young: 

You touched on this earlier, you said that Millennials brought their parents to college with them. What is a top piece of advice when it comes to parents supporting well-being from afar? 

Beth McCuskey: 

I think a couple things here too. First, I think helping their students help themselves, not getting into it to solve it for them, but helping them with the skills to take this on themself and resolve it. There are times where families get involved and it makes perfect sense. There are times where people can’t seem to get the right person to talk to or navigate the situation, and that’s totally fine. But that self-resilience in terms of being able to solve your own problems is just phenomenal. The other thing I would say, and this goes back to networks, I just can’t say this one enough. Purdue is such a rich tapestry of individuals. And once you join our community, you are part of this community for life. You are part of this vast alumni network, so take advantage of opportunities. You will have chances to meet CEOs in your classes. 

We have programs like Old Masters or Executive in Residence that bring people in specifically to talk to students. Take advantage of those opportunities. But the other part of networks is building your friend group. You are among and you may be the next CEO, you may be the next astronaut, and your friends are going to be in that space too, the innovators of tomorrow. And so building that friend group and maintaining that friend group throughout life just makes you part of this tapestry forever. And then of course, as an older student, perhaps paying it forward to the younger students. As alumni, paying it forward to students. There’s just that way to give back and keep this amazing system that is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. Something else too is when you touched on being able to solve your own problems or kind of sourcing solutions, being solutions-oriented is so important when you graduate too- 

Beth McCuskey: 

Absolutely. 

Kate Young: 

… in your job, in the workforce, right? 

Beth McCuskey: 

Absolutely. 

Kate Young: 

So in 2018, your team saw a need for mental healthcare access and resources, and you developed the Steps to Leaps framework here at Purdue. Tell us a little bit about that initial need for this framework. And how has it helped students over the years? 

Beth McCuskey: 

So Steps to Leaps evolved after we invested in some mental health services early on and realized we need to build out a culture here. And so we worked with students to build Steps to Leaps. So these concepts were totally student-driven. And so the themes embedded in Steps to Leaps are well-being overall, which is pretty self-explanatory, leadership, which we’re framing as that self-development and that professional development, so reinvesting in yourself throughout your life, impact, which is a Gen Z thing, wanting to make a big difference. And so how do you make a big difference? And recognizing that small differences matter too. Networks, which we’ve talked about a lot, being able to build that network and support that network, and then grit or persistence, that resiliency set of skills. And so out of the gate, we started by building some modules in the space. We tied with faculty who teach in these spaces and research in these spaces to bring their materials forward. 

We have done so much since. We have a student organization that is Steps to Leaps-oriented. We give annual Steps to Leaps awards. We have a program that embeds these principles in the classroom. And we have small stipends for faculty to work with these well-being topics in their classroom. Steps to Leaps is the framework that we’re using for well-being as a whole. So as we’re looking at how our students grow in this space, the framework of these individual pillars are how we’re looking at that growth. This has taken us far. We launched this in fall of ’19 and had some of these online tools already set up, and then hit the pandemic. So it was so fortuitous that we’d already thought through a lot of these things and had them available. But the model has just grown from there. 

Kate Young: 

That’s exciting. I mentioned the 2025 Forbes article at the beginning of this interview. And it said Purdue is at the forefront of well-being. What are a few of those key strategies and implementations that you and your team adopted that has made Purdue a true leader in this space? 

Beth McCuskey: 

One of the things I think is so important is our President and his wife are so passionate about this topic, and that is crystal clear with how they’re supportive. We had some investment into CAPS right out of the gate with President Chiang. And Kei is super, super supportive as a medical professional, as a doctor. She totally gets this and is supportive as well. And so I think that framing is really important. If you’re building an institutional culture, the top has to tie in and be supportive of it. I think other ways are just the reach that we have with embedding faculty. Everybody has a different lens through their work on the student experience, on how we understand well-being. And so what tools can you bring to the table? And we encourage people to do that across the campus as a whole. 

Kate Young: 

What does institutionalizing student well-being mean? 

Beth McCuskey: 

It means that we believe in this, that we have people across the board who are supporting the concept. It doesn’t mean every single person has to do it and get it and do it, but it does mean that we have people who … From a faculty lens, how do we embed this from an academic side? It means our researchers who are doing well-being research are tied in and we talk to them and try to understand from their learnings how to support students in new ways. It means the students taking the mantle as we have student organizations dedicated to this space. And so it’s really kind of top to bottom. Everybody has a place in this space and we just work together to make it a reality. 

Kate Young: 

When you think of the work that’s being done right now in student well-being, what motivates you and inspires you and gets you excited about the future? 

Beth McCuskey: 

Well, I am always excited by our students. They are a joy. Purdue students are brilliant. They are curious. They are just wanting to learn and wanting to grow. And so that makes our job very, very easy to work with them. It’s just phenomenal. I mentioned AI. I think AI is the new frontier for a lot of our work. And how that works, how do we tackle our next set of challenges with these tools, I think, is going to be important. I think it’s going to be profound. We’re already playing with AI in some of our operational spaces. So for example, our dining menus are driven partly through an AI model. We’re playing around with student organizations and selecting a student organization. So what orgs appeal to you as a student? And how might this work? We’re playing around with our activity forms, of which there are thousands because our students are doing thousands of activities. 

And is there a way to sift through these to bring the ones to the top that might need a little more support and attention? So I think operationally, we’re already playing in this space. I think the part that’s going to be different, though, is that support piece. And how are these tools being used to support students directly or through a moderated approach? They’re already using social media and AI tools to engage, to learn, and kind of even as pseudo-therapists. And so are there ways to support them through this space? But in a obviously very ethical approach, there’s just a lot here that’s so new that we have to think through and make sure that we’re managing very appropriately. But it is the new frontier, I believe. 

Kate Young: 

Well, Beth, this was so interesting. I could probably talk to you all day. But is there anything else that I missed that you want to tell our listeners and our viewers today? 

Beth McCuskey: 

Well, I absolutely have to plug our book. So Louis Tay and I are co-editors of … It is The Oxford University Press Handbook of Well-Being in Higher Education. It will be released later this year. This book is unlike anything that’s been produced thus far. It has 46 chapters reflecting tons of aspects of well-being on campus, about 130 contributors from all over the world. And so we are super excited to be launching this this year. 

Kate Young: 

We can’t thank you enough for joining us. And it was a pleasure talking to you. 

Beth McCuskey: 

Likewise. Thank you so very much. 

Kate Young: 

We can’t thank Beth enough for joining us on This Is Purdue. Her upcoming book, The Oxford Handbook of Well-Being in Higher Education, will be available this summer with the online issue coming out in June and the print issue releasing in August. And if you’re interested in learning more about student well-being at Purdue, we have plenty of links and resources in our show notes for you. Be sure to follow This Is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Plus, we’re on YouTube and you can subscribe to our show on there too. 

This Is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with John Garcia, Alli Chaney, and Zach Mogensen. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube Promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production manager is Dalani Young. Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler up.

Mike Bobinski: 

This is Mike Bobinski, and you’re listening to This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Mike Bobinski: 

I think a lot of it has to do with our coaches and who they identify as the right young people that will be successful at Purdue. We don’t ever want it to become purely a transactional relationship. That’s not going to work here at Purdue. Never has, never will. We’re going to continue to recruit young people that are interested in the full Purdue experience, that want to be real students, that want to grow in other ways outside of athletics, but also want to win and compete at a really high level. We’re looking for the whole package and they’re out there. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we’re talking to Mike Bobinski. As the executive vice president and director of intercollegiate athletics at Purdue for the last 10 years, Mike has seen a lot of change within the NCAA. Mike is a thought leader in the college athletics landscape, with more than 40 years of experience under his belt. He’s previously worked for Georgia Tech, Xavier University, the University of Akron, and the US Naval Academy. In today’s modern era of name, image, and likeness, and direct payment to student athletes, Mike has unique insights into what it will take for Purdue to remain nationally competitive. Not to mention he has a deep knowledge of Boilermaker athletics overall, including future growth, innovation, and donor engagement. 

It’s the perfect episode to kick off our spring 2026 season, and This is Purdue is proud to give all of our sports fans a deep dive into the state of Purdue athletics. Something I really enjoyed about my conversation with Mike was that he didn’t just dive into our most televised, high profile sports like basketball, for example. He really highlighted Purdue athletics as a whole and dug into all different programs like wrestling, golf, tennis, swimming and diving and more. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Mike … Mike, thank you for joining us on This Is Purdue. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Sure enough, Kate. Thanks for having me. 

Kate Young: 

Thanks for coming to our turf over here. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Sure enough. 

Kate Young: 

So you’ve been the AD and the executive vice president at Purdue for the last 10 years. You have more than 40 years of experience in college athletics. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Thanks for the reminder. 

Kate Young: 

So we’re just so excited because you are such a thought leader in this space. We’re going to dig into NIL a little bit, how that’s changed the game. We’re going to dig into Boilermaker athletics for all of our Purdue fans out there and just get a special sneak peek of Purdue athletics from you. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Absolutely. I’ll try to do my part. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. So we’ll kick it off with NIL. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Sure. 

Kate Young: 

Things have been changing so much. We just had a wonderful interview with PJ Thompson. He was reflecting on how much things have changed, but for Purdue, it’s really the basics and the importance of education still. I think that’s so special here at Purdue. What have you seen with this policy and how it’s impacted Purdue personally? 

Mike Bobinski: 

From a Purdue perspective, I would say this, we have definitely tried to retain the fundamental values and the core values that we’ve been built on for many, many years. We’re still about education. We’re still about developing our young people from the time they get here till the time they leave into folks that are going to have a great life when college is over. We’ve tried not to lose our way with all that, but the world around us has changed and you have to adapt. You have to adjust and you have to make sure that you remain competitive as the world turns. And so we have tried to do that very much. And so just a little bit of a history. And we could literally do the entire podcast on the NIL topic, which thank goodness we won’t, but I’ll give you a condensed version of where that’s come and how it’s affected us here at Purdue. 

Back in 2021, NIL was permitted for the very first time. For years and years and years, student athletes could not give a lesson for anything, they couldn’t run a camp, they couldn’t do anything for compensation. And then all of a sudden the world changed. And the original intent was that the use of your name, image and likeness, which is central to your being, you’d now be allowed to be compensated for that. And for the unique skills and abilities that any individual might have accumulated to that point in time, made great sense. President Daniels was in place at that point and we were 100% in favor of that because it just was a fundamental right that we believed student athletes should have like other students have. If you’re a great musician, if you’re a great theater performer or a great entrepreneur as a student, you can make money on that. 

And so student athletes, let’s do that. So it began that way. We were all for it and continued to be all for it. As things would happen in college athletics, it morphed into something different for over a period of time. It became not just that true NIL where you’re actually using your brand value for endorsements or other types of compensation, but it became really a pay for play hiding under the umbrella of NIL. And that’s the way the world evolved. And we, like everybody, had to participate in that at some level in order to remain competitive. And so we did so. We were very fortunate to have a group called the Boilermaker Alliance formed down in Indianapolis with some really, really terrific Purdue people that wanted to help us athletically be competitive. And so they formed this group down there and they helped us in the NIL world tremendously. 

They were the vehicle that we were able to accomplish NIL payments and activities through for a number of years. And that spent was a really, really good thing. Then fast-forward to really January to June 30th of this year, of 2025, when we were on the cusp of a settlement of multiple lawsuits that had been brought against college athletics. In that period of time, there was a signal given by the leadership and the authorities in college athletics that, “Hey, for this last six months, we’re really not going to look very hard at whatever might happen in the NIL world.” It was take your last big swing. And so everybody went for it in that period of time, as did we at Purdue. And we front loaded basically a lot of NIL payments during that period of time before the settlement actually took effect on July 1, which really had a lot to do with how this year’s roster were established, particularly in the sports where it’s most prevalent that NIL is a real factor. 

And that’s football, men’s basketball, women’s basketball, volleyball. We did a lot of that same front loading that a lot of other people did, which was to our great benefit. It’s partly how we were able to rebuild the football roster, bring in 82 new players, retain the core of our men’s basketball roster. We were able to do a lot of things through that NIL activity. So I can’t say it’s a bad thing because it benefited us in lots of ways. Well, then July one happens. The settlement is now in effect and NIL is meant to return to its original purpose, what they call true NIL, where it is in fact Kate Young, endorsing a product or given a lesson or doing something that actually trades on your brand value and what you can bring to a transaction. So there is now an organization called NIL GO, which is the clearing house for NIL deals, which has to approve everything above $600, 600 and above has to go to this clearing house where they say, yes, the paying entity is a valid business purpose. 

It doesn’t exist just to pay student athletes. It has some other valid business purpose and the compensation that’s being proposed falls within some acceptable range of compensation. It’s not outrageous. We’re not asking you to sign one autograph and pay you a million dollars. That’s not an acceptable range of compensation. So all these deals now are being put through this clearinghouse for review. That will really become a thing for the Purdues and the power four schools in this next year because we all did the front loading and took care of this year already. So now as we look ahead, we’ll be submitting deals. And we have already, we’ve submitted 60 to 70 deals to the clearing house already. 40 plus of them have been approved, a few of them have been unapproved or disproved, and then a few are still under review. 

So we’ve had some activity already in understanding how that world works. We are prepared and need to be very active in that space going forward. The other reality is the best way for it to happen for us going forward is for either Purdue led businesses or Purdue affiliated businesses, whether they partner with us from a research perspective or a corporate partnership perspective or other ways. Maybe they’re significant vendors to the university. For those folks to be really helpful to us in the NIL world will really provide us a competitive advantage and opportunity going forward. So we’re going to work really hard to source those opportunities and develop those to make sure that our student athletes are receiving the same types of opportunities that they are at other schools. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you for explaining all that. 

Mike Bobinski: 

That was a lot. I get it. 

Kate Young: 

No, but you see it in the headlines so much and it’s sometimes hard to grasp unless you’re in the collegiate athletics world. 

Mike Bobinski: 

No question. It has become the most misused and misunderstood term. It’s used when it doesn’t really apply. People sometimes think that the new revenue sharing opportunities are also NIL. Well, not really. Those are payments that actually flow through the university. So there are multiple avenues of supporting student athletes these days, but it all gets lumped under that term for those that aren’t in it every day. We’re in it every day, so we have to understand it, but I can’t expect others to do that. And we’ll do our best to educate and inform and make sure, again, that Purdue is competitive in that space. 

Kate Young: 

How are you navigating this new normal, but also sticking to Purdue’s core principles, fostering success after they’re an athlete, after school ends? 

Mike Bobinski: 

Sure. I think a lot of it has to do with our coaches and who they identify as the right young people that’ll be successful at Purdue. We don’t ever want it to become purely a transactional relationship. That’s not going to work here at Purdue. Never has, never will. We’re going to continue to recruit young people that are interested in the full Purdue experience, that want to be real students, that want to grow in other ways outside of athletics, but also want to win and compete at a really high level. We’re looking for the whole package and they’re out there. I mean, I know they’re out there and we have multiple examples in our midst right now in multiple sports that clearly are those young people. And so we just have to work that much harder, that much smarter to make sure that we bring those kind of young people to Purdue. That’s going to be our secret sauce for success. 

Kate Young: 

How is Purdue mentoring student athletes when it comes to their personal branding and entrepreneurship? What are the programs that you guys provide? 

Mike Bobinski: 

So we’ve got a whole unit within the athletic department called Student Athlete Development. That is their sole purpose in life is to make sure that we provide all those value added services for our student athletes. And it’s about building your brand. It’s about financial literacy. It’s about career preparation and personal growth and development. All those types of things, how to communicate, how to build a resume, how to do all those things. So there’s multiple programs that are conducted throughout the course of the year to do so. We’ve also hired a couple people that are working solely in the NIL space and they meet individually with teams and or student athletes that have an interest in pursuing those opportunities and help bring them along and show them best practices from around the country so that they can then, again, take that on personally and go out and source their own deals. 

Some of our highest profile athletes actually have marketing agents, marketing agencies or others that are representing them in that space. For instance, when Zach was here, he had somebody that looked for deals for him and his situation was a little more complicated because he was a Canadian citizen. So he had to do things outside of the country, he couldn’t do certain things in the United States. Other athletes that we have today have those same types of services working on their behalf. And that’s to their credit and to their great benefit. Their profile is high enough that they can warrant those types of opportunities. 

Kate Young: 

It’s so interesting too with social media and your personal brand, what you wear, what you say. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Yes, I think it’s an amazing educational opportunity for young people more than just whatever the money might be. Some of that gets grossly overstated and exaggerated. I mean, there’s a lot of fantasy and myth that goes in and around what is and isn’t really happening, but just the awareness of what it means to be on all the time. Because if you damage your brand, you lose value these days. It is a real thing. So you have to be really aware of how you present yourself, how you carry yourself. If you’re a poor sport in the competition world, I mean, that can hurt your brand. 

I mean, there are just so many ways that it can go the wrong way on you. And I think that’s a great learning experience for our young people to realize that, hey, it all can either add to or detract from just know what you’re doing at all times. What you put out on social media matters. How you carry yourself matters. And then really the other piece for those that are fortunate enough to make or to have real financial opportunities, understanding what it means to manage resources, to pay your taxes. 

To Do those things that are fast forwarding these young folks towards adulthood here in a way that’s really interesting. And I know this on our men’s basketball program, I think six or seven of them are working with the same financial advisor out of Indianapolis who we brought up to do a seminar for our athletes. And they were like, “Hey, this person is really sharp.” They’re working with them from an investment perspective and having to make sure that they don’t just waste whatever it is they’re receiving now. So again, I think just a lot of really good lessons that hopefully will carry on well beyond their time at Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

What do you think though for the current direction of NIL? Is it sustainable for college sports? 

Mike Bobinski: 

I think if we can get it corralled into what it is meant to be where true NIL becomes the way that we all do business, I think that is entirely healthy. I think we’ve already figured out that, our athletes have figured out that you can only put so much time into those types of activities because you’ve still got to be a student. You’ve still got to meet all your athletic commitments. You want to have a social life. You want to do all the things that a college student does. And if you’re spending every waking moment trying to just chase an NIL opportunity, something’s going to give, you only have so much capacity in a day to do certain things. And so I think they’ve figured that out. 

But I think from an overall environment perspective, if we can operate NIL as it is meant to be and have that become that supplement to the revenue sharing opportunities and that value add, I think that is a sustainable condition that would be really healthy for college athletics. Now getting there has been a fight. It hasn’t been that long. And unfortunately we were in the position of having to build the system as we were operating it. And we, by we, I mean the college athletics enterprise, the College Sports Commission, the new entity that’s governing all that, they were put under a very tight timeframe and they’re still figuring out the best structure in hiring staff to really enforce the guidelines and the rules. 

If we can get all that right, I think it’s really healthy for the enterprise. And I’ll give my two cents on that. I know President Chang and I talk about this all the time. If we truly want college athletics to be sustainable and to add all the value that it adds in so many ways to not only the individuals that are in it, but to a university setting and all the great gathering place that it’s become and that point of pride, you’ve got to be sustainable and you’ve got to have rules. You can’t operate any entity of that scale, of the scale of college athletics without structure, without guidelines. I mean, if you just let it find its own way, it’ll ultimately implode, in my opinion. We all have to at some point agree, operate within some structure that makes sense. I’m hopeful, I wish I was certain, but I’m hopeful that we’re going to get there. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s dive into something probably equally as interesting or more so for people. The state of Purdue athletics. 

Mike Bobinski: 

There you go. 

Kate Young: 

2025, what has been the most exciting thing for you? 

Mike Bobinski: 

2025. Let’s see. Well, if I think back to the springtime, which was, we’ll go into the calendar year 25, I was really proud to wear a men’s basketball program with less than stellar expectations. You lose a player like Zach, who’s a generational two-time national player of the year, such an impact person in so many ways. And then to have them as the year went on just get better and better and then really be this close once again to playing in the Elite Eight and we would’ve faced our nemesis in Tennessee and I know they didn’t want to play us because we’ve had our way with them. 

That was really a special moment. But other programs have really done good things during the course of 2025. I know men’s and women’s golf isn’t a high profile program, but for the last two years, we’ve placed both of our men’s and women’s golf teams in the national championship. I think we’re one of four or five schools in the country to send both of those teams in each of the last two years. And it doesn’t get talked about much because it’s not a front page type situation, but we’ve got just exceptionally talented young people on our men’s and women’s golf program. And it’s really fun to watch that happen. Our softball program’s getting really much, much better. Maggie Frezzotti is unbelievably talented, fiery, young coach. And I love what she’s doing. Our players love playing for her. She creates a great winning environment and culture, and it’s been fun to watch that. 

And multiple other programs are doing those same things. And in this fall, I would tell you that I’ve been really pleased with our volleyball program. Coach Shondell, we’re in the same boat here. We’ve both been at it for a long time, and to watch him have to adapt and rebuild that roster this year, which is not of anyone’s choosing, but we all understand that’s the world we live in today. But to watch him do that and to watch that group of young ladies come together as a true team. I mean, because every night it’s somebody else that steps up and they support each other so much. I mean, it is like when you’re in this business, I mean, you love to watch the whole become greater than the sum of the parts. I mean, that’s the magic in team sports. And I’ve seen that happen in volleyball now during these last couple months. 

And hopefully this season will continue the way it has. But even what they’ve done to this point has been nothing short of really special. I mean, it’s been really special to watch them. They’ve been pushed to the limit any number of times. And we’ve been down two sets to none and come back and reverse swept a couple times against ranked teams and that just doesn’t happen. I mean, it’s been really, really fun to watch. And Holloway’s great. It’s just such an energetic environment. And then we played a couple matches in Mackey already. We’ll play Indiana in Mackey. Our young ladies played down in Bridgestone Arena against Tennessee, we’ll beat Tennessee again and in volleyball down there. We played IU in Gainbridge. They moved their home match in Gainbridge Fieldhouse and it was a great environment. And we fortunately went down and beat them also. 

So they’ve done a lot of really, really good things and it’s just been fun to watch that. And I’d be remiss if I didn’t talk a little bit. Football’s obviously having a struggle. We’re struggling this fall. That’s not news to anybody. But I will say this, I mean, the environment that Coach Odom is creating, the culture that he’s building is exactly what we need here at Purdue. He is a terrific football coach. He’s an unbelievable leader, period. I mean, I am 100% convinced that as we layer good days upon good days, and ultimately we find a way and learn how to win games instead of finding ways to lose games, which we perfected here recently, it’s going to get to be a whole lot of fun. He is going to lead us to tremendous success in the years ahead. And I am as convinced as I’ve ever been to that. And I can’t wait to see it happen because I think it’ll be done the Purdue way and it’ll be sustainable. It’ll get to a place that we’ll all be very, very proud of. 

Kate Young: 

I love that you addressed that because we met Coach Odom and had the great opportunity to interview him. He’s a genuine, amazing human. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Well, he’s a tremendous person, period. I mean, all you have to do is meet his wife Tia and his children and say, “Wow, what a family.” I mean, these are the most well put together and confident and mature young people, and that doesn’t happen without just solid, solid mom and dads, and they are just terrific people. I mean, he treats his players the same way. I mean, he demands a lot. The standard is the standard, and if you don’t meet the standard, then we’re going to work till you get there. But he has a humanity about it that I think just really is what you hope for. When you send your son or daughter to play for a coach, you want somebody that’s a real person that understands how people tick. And Coach Odom’s been at it for 26 years or thereabouts. And he knows what it’s supposed to look like. He knows how it’s supposed to be done. And I’m just really thankful that he’s here with us and I know he will take us to great places. 

Kate Young: 

I agree. I love that. I also love how you talked about some of these not as high profile sports. You hear about football and basketball and all that good stuff, volleyball, but softball, golf. I love that. And I think that’s important for our listeners to know about that too. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Absolutely. And so I was a college baseball athlete back in my days at South Bend. And back in those days, we were mediocre. I’m going to be the first to tell you, and I fit right in there. I met the standard of mediocrity as a player, but I was at a place where football is king at Notre Dame. Let’s just be honest. I mean, it was the beginning and the end of the story. And back then, men’s basketball was a pretty big deal. We were one of those other sports, but my experience mattered to me, it mattered to my teammates. And so as I’ve gotten into this world, and I also knew that that was the reason I was able to even attend Notre Dame. 

I received a college scholarship just enough, just enough of an athletic scholarship to make it work financially for my family. And so being able to pay that opportunity back to decades now of young people has been really the most meaningful thing of this career for me. I mean, I love being around competition. I love seeing young people grow and be pushed and stretched and gain confidence in doing things they never thought they could do. I’m just grateful that I had that opportunity. I want to make sure that I deliver that in as best a way as I can throughout my time here in this business. 

Kate Young: 

What would you say your proudest accomplishment has been during your time at Purdue? 

Mike Bobinski: 

A couple things. So these last couple years, we’ve been able to place our student athletes, our graduating student athletes at a remarkably high level. Three of the last four years, it’s been 100%. I mean, every one of our graduating student athletes is either going to grad school, employed in a really good job somewhere, or they’re pursuing professional opportunities in their sport. That doesn’t happen by accident. That happens because first of all, you’ve got the right young people that are focused and motivated, but we have people that from day one, from the day they get here, are talking to them about preparing for what’s next. 

So they don’t get to the end of their time here at Purdue and say, “Oh my gosh, now what?” There’s been a process. There’s been a process put in place. I’m as proud of that as anything that I could possibly be. The other part is that we haven’t lost our way at Purdue here. We still believe, and I am 100% convinced that you can do it the way that Purdue has always done it and succeed at a really high level. We wouldn’t have the preseason number one ranked men’s basketball team in the country if that wasn’t a true fact. I mean, it just wouldn’t be. And that has been done. We are an overnight success that’s been years in the making. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. Yeah. 

Mike Bobinski: 

I mean, it’s like all of a sudden people are like, “Hey, Purdue’s really good.” Hey, no kidding. We’ve been building towards this for a long time. 

Kate Young: 

Constantly good too though, yeah. 

Mike Bobinski: 

It’s been this stair step process. I really believe this, I think we’re at a point where we’re going to be there every year for as long as you can see out under the horizon, we’re going to be that team. And that has been done by the skill of Coach Painter and his staff by conscious design. It is not just, “Oh my gosh, look what happened here.” There has been a strategy and a thought in place as to how we got there. And to me, that’s the only evidence that I need that can it happen? Hell yes, it can happen. And if it’s happening in a sport that’s as nationally competitive as men’s basketball, it can happen in everything we’re doing. I really truly believe that. 

Kate Young: 

I think most people listening would agree as well. Well, speaking of basketball, lots of buzz. What do you think makes Purdue basketball so special, that leadership, how unique that program is? What is behind that? 

Mike Bobinski: 

A lot of it to me is based on the care that Matt and his staff place in selecting the young guys that are in the program that, again, fit our situation. They’re not here for their own personal glory and all. They want to win. They want to be pros in lots of cases. They want to push themselves to the very highest level athletically, but they also believe in all the other things that Purdue stands for. And Matt spends more time, I think, than any coach I’ve ever seen in trying to understand who young people are before they get here. He knows that in a smaller locker room, it’s not the 105 of football, it’s 15. If you get the wrong one or two, it can really upset the apple cart and change the dynamic in a way that can really damage your culture and affect your performance. 

It’s never perfect. You never get it 100% right, but he tries to understand it to the very best of his ability, what makes people tick. We’ve all heard a lot about it, our guys do these psychological profiles and everybody that we recruit does that. If they don’t want to do it, then we’re onto the next person because Matt just really believes that he wants to understand who they are. He wants them to understand who he is. He shares his profile with all of our players and say, “Hey, this is who I am. So if I say this to you, know where it’s coming from. This is how I’m wired.” And so to me, it’s an amazingly sophisticated approach, very thoughtful, and it’s now bleeding into other programs at Purdue, which I really love. Our wrestling program’s using it a lot. Our football’s beginning to use it and their numbers are so big. 

They’re using it for key positions and key staff members. Okay, what’s really making that person tick is we can get the very best out of them. And that’s not in a manipulative way, but just in a motivational and an effective communication means. And so it’s been really, really fun to watch that and multiple other programs are using it, but wrestling was the first one to really dive into it. And Coach Ersland will tell you that it has had a real impact on his recruiting and on his coaching style. He quickly understood… Last year we had a young man that had struggled for a few years. He never quite realized the potential that Coach Ersland saw in him when he recruited him. Once he did the psychological profile with his team, he realized that I’ve been coaching this young man the wrong way for three years. And so he changed his approach with him completely and all of a sudden he became a NCAA qualifier, finished like fifth in the country. 

Kate Young: 

Oh my gosh. 

Mike Bobinski: 

He had this amazing transformation because all of a sudden he was able to reach him in a way that resonated with that young athlete. That doesn’t happen in every case, but it can happen. And I think the more that you apply those tools and make those part of what we do here at Purdue, I think can give us an advantage. 

Kate Young: 

Beyond NIL, what else has evolved during your time here at Purdue as AD? 

Mike Bobinski: 

Literally everything. 

Kate Young: 

Social media, right? 

Mike Bobinski: 

Oh my gosh. So having been, as you were kind enough to point out in this business for over 40 years, I have seen it change so dramatically. And in these last 10 years, I think it’s been the pace of change, the rate of change has been exponential. It’s gone from a place that yeah, evolves pretty frequently and rapidly to this amazing rocket ship of adjustments. And nevermind the fact that in my time here, timing in life is everything, you get the COVID disruption, which changed a lot of things. All of a sudden we end up with students that are in school for five and six years or six and seven years. You get 24 and 25 year olds competing in college competition, which is the environment just dictated that that was at that point the decision that was made that was the right thing to do, but it did change a lot of things, this legal settlement that we’ve just entered into. 

And as I try to tell everybody, just the concept of a settlement, people need to understand, I think anybody that’s been in any kind of a legal proceeding, when you settle a case, you end up with both sides a little unhappy. Nobody gets everything they want. That’s why it’s called a settlement. You get a little of this, you give up a little of that. That’s just the way it works. So is the settlement perfect? No, it’s not perfect. But where we were headed, and unfortunately where we still have some problems is that our structure was dictated by a bunch of random judicial rulings and state legislature rulings, and that’s no way to run an enterprise of the scale of college athletics. So if this settlement can actually fully be embraced and put in place, I think it’s got a chance to really, as I mentioned earlier, become a sustainable model for at least the duration of the settlement, which right now is a 10-year injunction that we have. 

I’m very hopeful that we can live within the terms of that and have that become the way that we operate our business for these next 10 years. The other element of the settlement, and it’s a big, big change, is the ability to share revenue directly with student athletes. So we are in that world like everybody at our level, that we’re doing that to the full extent available and possible. We had to make decisions like everybody did as to where those dollars get allocated. And so we have done that. We’ve tried to be fair and supportive of really across the board with our programs. And so far, I think we’ve been pretty good, pretty effective in our strategy. 

And the positive thing that I would say is that it has not caused any locker room disruption, no jealousy about, “Well, why is Kate getting this? And I’m only getting that.” And I mean, there’s been, to my knowledge, none of that has existed at this point in time, which I think is a credit to our coaches and to our young people for understanding that, hey, the world is what the world is. Not everything is going to be purely equal as we move forward here, but we’re in that world. We’re competing at the very highest level with that. That’s a brand new environment for us to adjust to, but so far so good in my eyes. 

Kate Young: 

Purdue is known for innovation, and that extends to all areas of campus, including athletics. Mike talks about how the AI-driven innovations we’re seeing at the professional level, like the MLB Robot Empires, for example, is trickling down into collegiate athletics. Plus, he digs into some of the ways that Purdue is on the cutting edge in sports technology. 

Mike Bobinski: 

I think that’s very much a field of opportunity for us here at Purdue. So we’ve had people come in and talk to our senior staff members about AI and how we might use that, not only to create efficiencies, but to do our work better. But it’s not just a, “Hey, how can I do it quicker,” but, “How can I do it better? Can we work smarter and more effect Did we gain advantage somehow, some way?” So we’re continually looking for those opportunities. I know it’s certain folks and it’s a little bit of a generational thing. It just is. I mean, not that I’m not interested in it. I use it now and then. 

Kate Young: 

Good job. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Yeah, I’m getting there. But the younger folks in our staff, and we have a very multi-generational staff, which I love. Our younger folks, it just comes easier for them to naturally just use that as a tool to help them do their work better. The other area where we’re using technology, and again, at a place like Purdue, shame on us if we don’t, is in our sports performance area and wellness where multiple teams use monitors when they’re practicing, monitoring heart rate, oxygen levels, all those different things so that coaches can know when, “Hey, we’re pushing too hard here or our athletes are at their max. We need to back off and have a light day tomorrow.” 

So there’s a lot of data that our sports performance folks gather every day and then share with the coaches and say, “Hey,” sometimes even specifically to a specific athlete saying, “Hey, that person is right at the edge.” If we don’t want them to get injured or to start to cross over into a place where it’s diminishing returns, you need to hold them out tomorrow or give them a day off or whatever it might be. So multiple ways, sleep technology. The value of sleep for a high performance athlete is really, and really for all of us, but for the stress that our young people put on their bodies and their systems, if you don’t get a good night’s sleep, you’re really, really putting yourself at a deficit. 

And so multiple teams use monitors, whether it be the Oura Ring or the Whoop bands or whatever it might be that help them understand the quality of their sleep. And so all those different things are in place here. Nutrition-wise, I think we’re getting really, really sophisticated and good at how we feed our athletes. We have our own student athlete dining facility that opened up the summer of 24. So we’re really in our second year of that, and that has become much, much more of an asset for us. The meals are high nutrient, high protein and high performance, and everything’s labeled. And we coach our athletes as to, “Hey, when you’re at this phase of your training, this is what you should be…” More carbs, less protein, or more protein, less carb, whatever it might be, it’s way more sophisticated than just, “Hey, let me go get a burger and fries.” That’s the way it worked when I was in school. 

Kate Young: 

When you were playing baseball. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Oh my God, a slice of pizza and a hamburger, I was happy and I thought I was doing great, but no more of the case. It’s way beyond that. And I would tell you that I think we’ve got all the tools in place to support our young people in the most effective way with all of that. 

Kate Young: 

So looking into the future, 2026, what can Boilermaker fans be excited about? 

Mike Bobinski: 

I think we can be excited about a lot of things. We have a number of programs, in my opinion. They’re on that build phase of really, really good things are going to happen. I know that fall didn’t work out for our women’s soccer program the way we would’ve liked it to, but Coach Moody is extremely motivated, extremely aggressive. We have commitments or we’re going to get commitments from, I think, some really, really high profile players to build, to add to the really talented young ladies that he brought in this year. So I think that program’s going to really take off in 26. I expect volleyball to continue to be really good. Our tennis programs, we have two relatively new. 

Our men’s tennis coach is just now in his third year, Coach Young, Jeff Young doing a great job. He said in four years, we’re going to be a top 25 team and then we’re going to go from there. And he is right on track to do that. We’ve hired a brand new women’s tennis coach, Raquel Atawo, who I think is exceptional, and she’s going to do the same thing on the women’s tennis side. Little known fact, our diving program is, we’re in the top three or four of the country, if not the top two, about every year. It is an amazing hidden jewel amongst our midst here. We’ve got world champions and Olympians and all of that better- 

Kate Young: 

David Boudia. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Yeah. And David coaches our diving team right now. That’s the type of young people that we have in that program. And we’ve got an amazingly talented group on both the men’s and women’s sides right now. And I would expect that we’re going to be having CA champions and future Olympians that train here every day right now. Lots of good things. And in the spring of 26, I don’t expect. I don’t want to put that on anybody, but the possibility certainly exists that we’re going to have a really, really fun first couple months of 26 with our men’s basketball program. The ingredients are all there. Lots of things have to go your way in order to be there at the end. But does that possibility exist for us? Sure it does. There’s no reason to think otherwise or to behave otherwise, we just need to keep getting better every single day, play our best at the end of the year, and we could be down there in Indianapolis celebrating an amazing experience for us. 

Kate Young: 

Short, one hour drive away. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Wouldn’t that be something? Let’s all do everything we can to be supportive of that group and motivate them to do what they’re capable of doing. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. With donor engagement, we have the Victories and Heroes campaign this year. The goal of the campaign is largest in Purdue history to raise four billion by early 2030. What do you think as far as the athletics department and your approach to creating long-term success within athletics with this funding? 

Mike Bobinski: 

So the campaign is an exciting thing for Purdue. Every time an institution ventures into one of these, I think we all look in our areas, “Okay, how can we participate in that and do things to really move us forward?” So we have thought a lot about that. And our John Purdue Club team is incredible. They do a great job. Every year, the bar just gets raised by what we’re able to do. And that’s to the great credit of our donors and our alums and our fans and all those folks. They have been just so supportive and we’re so grateful for that. But as we look ahead with the new structure that this legal settlement has put in place, we have really the best opportunity we’ve ever had for scholarship gifts to actually truly translate into additional opportunities for certain sports. We can give scholarship support to every single person on a roster these days. We may not be able to fund that through our regular operating budget, but through donor gifts that are folks that are so inclined to support scholarship, that is a meaningful opportunity for people. 

And people respond to that or have responded to that for years, but now they can truly say, “If I give a gift of X, I can provide a scholarship opportunity for a young person’s entire career and I can know that I’ve done that, that I have changed that young person’s life.” That will be part of our campaign opportunity for sure. Other things that we’re going to look at, facilities right now are not talked about as much because of the need for NIL and revenue share and all the other things that are new for us, but facilities never go away. You can’t ever go to sleep on that front because if you do, if you just ignore the staying on the front end of that, or if you ignore keeping them current and modern and maintained properly, all of a sudden you end up with a problem that’s astronomical and you can’t manage it. So getting ahead of that, making sure that we build funds, have funds in place to be able to replace technology or to supplement our technology, our audio, our visual, the big scoreboard in Ross Aid. 

None of those things last forever. All the video elements in Mackie, they don’t last forever. We need to have funding in place to take care of that. Ross Aid, there are going to be opportunities that we’re going to want to take advantage of there to update the press box and all the suites and all the club areas in there. We’re asking people to invest significant dollars to be in those spaces. Well, they need to live up to what people are investing. And then there are other things we can do in the stadium I think that can have a revenue component to them that will be important, but you have to have the dollars in place to be able to accomplish those projects. And I think we can do all of that through the campaign. Then the last piece is really being able to just help us from an operational perspective as we’ve taken on the additional revenue sharing expense, which this year, the 25, 26 year, it’s $20.5 million. 

A brand new number that just landed on the expense side of my profit and loss statement. And that’s not nothing, that’s a lot of money. And so making sure that we have the resources in place to help us meet that year in and year out is going to be really important. And I know our donors will step up and do that. They’ve been so supportive. And just whether it be attendance, whether it be gift giving to us, I mean, they’re just everywhere. Even I’ll tell you the tournament that we’re playing in men’s basketball down in the Bahamas here, I think we have single-handedly purchased 10X the number of tickets and brought the number of people that the other three teams have. I mean, the organizers will tell you we’ve never seen anything like it. I mean, you guys will literally dominate the entire place because you’ve just brought so many more people. It’s an incredible testament to the support and that loyalty that our Purdue fans have. They’re awesome. They really are. They are the best. 

Kate Young: 

What do you think makes that Boilermaker culture and spirit so special? Because it is different. 

Mike Bobinski: 

It is different. Our people respond to certain things. I mean, I believe there’s a pride. We all want to win. You don’t get in this business if winning doesn’t matter, then you’re grossly misplaced if you don’t want to win. We all want to compete, we all want to win. But I think our people respond to teams that will fight to the end, that will play hard, that are populated by young people that they can look at it and say, “Hey, these are really solid young folks. They’re about the right things.” And that matters to Purdue people, I believe. I think I’ve seen that over my time here, time and time again. They want to feel like, “Hey, those young people represent what I think college athletics should be about.” We can never and should never lose that. It is a special thing. Never take it for granted, never take our fan support for granted. We need to re-earn that every day. And I hope we do and I hope we are, but we’re very, very grateful for it because it makes a difference. It makes a huge difference. 

Kate Young: 

It’s cool reflecting back to hear that you played athletics in college and had that scholarship impact you and now your job today, you’re changing these young people’s lives and the donors are changing their lives. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Absolutely. To me, athletics is such a special thing. Being a college student without athletics still is a great thing also. And there’s so many incredibly talented and successful young folks throughout our midst here at Purdue and like there are on many, many campuses. But when you add that element of athletics and you still have to do all the other things, but you are forced to be able to find time in your day and you have to be committed to that, if you want to be successful at a higher level. It adds an element that I think really, really gives you a leg up for the rest of your life if you take advantage of it. 

If you really embrace it and understand and appreciate what you’ve just done for your four or five years in college, that, “Hey, I’ve been able to do all this stuff and on top of it, I’ve been a great student. I’ve grown personally. I’ve been involved with all these other things.” I mean, you now walk into whatever your next situation or opportunity is and immediately should have confidence in what you are capable of doing. And I think that’s the thing that we try to instill more than anything is just belief and confidence in what you can accomplish. And if we do that, again, we’ll win a lot along the way, but we’ll also feel like, “Hey, we’ve met our obligation here. We’ve done good work to launch these young people into successful lives.” 

Kate Young: 

What is your biggest motivator right now? What inspires you? 

Mike Bobinski: 

I like to win. I like winning a lot more than losing. Let me tell you that, that inspires me most days. What inspires me is I’ve come to believe and just be convinced that what you do for other people is what gives a life value. And I think that the more that we can provide most rich and worthwhile experience to our student athletes and to have a building full, a department full of people that are there for those same reasons, the better we can do that every day. I’ve always believed this. I mean, you can get better at everything every day. Nobody has ever reached the pinnacle and just like, “Hey, I can’t get any better.” No, that is not true. You can always be better at everything that we’re doing. 

For me, it’s about pushing our people to find ways for us to do what we do better every single day. I will never stop that. I mean, till the day I stop working, whatever that might be, it’ll never be, “Hey, let’s just mail it in here for the next couple of months.” I can’t do that. I wasn’t raised that way. My mom and dad were wonderful people, but it was always, “Hey, don’t cheat yourself. There’s always more in the tank. You can always do more. You can always be better at whatever it is you’re doing.” That’s just the way I’ve always been wired. And I’d like to think that that will be something that will benefit Purdue for years to come whenever the day comes when it’s time to not be doing it anymore. 

Kate Young: 

Well, we can’t thank you enough for joining us. It was a pleasure. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Same here. Well, this is fun. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you. Anything else you want to tell your faithful athletics fans out there? 

Mike Bobinski: 

Oh my gosh. Well, for me, I’ve obviously been in the business for a long time at a number of different places, lots of great places. I’ve been at some wonderful institutions, but anybody that asks me, and I mean this with my whole heart, the fact that this opportunity found me in 2016 has been the highlight of my professional career. I mean, it is such a wonderful place with so many great people, period. I mean, it just is. I mean, Purdue people are people of substance. They’re people of character. They believe in the right things. They’re competitive. They want to be successful, but in many cases, they’re self-made people that have earned it. They have worked from where they began to where they got to. That just resonates so much with me. I’m thankful for the chance to be here at Purdue and to have spent now, can’t believe I’m in my 10th year at Purdue. It has gone by so quickly, but it has been so rewarding and just such a wonderful place to be. I’m just grateful for the opportunity. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you so much. We had a blast during this interview, Mike. Thank you. 

Mike Bobinski: 

Thanks for having me. 

Kate Young: 

We are so thankful Mike joined us on This is Purdue. He’s a truly genuine leader, and it was a pleasure getting to know him and diving into all things Boilermaker athletics. You can watch our full video interview with Mike on our podcast YouTube page. YouTube.com/@ThisIsPurdue. And be sure to subscribe on YouTube and your favorite podcast platform so you don’t miss any of our spring 2026 episodes coming up. This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone in collaboration with John Garcia, Alli Chaney, and Jonathan Hord. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. 

Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshe and Sophie Ritz. And our creative production manager is Dalany Young. Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youTube.com/@ThisIsPurdue. And as always, boiler up.

Kasie Roberson: 

This is Dr. Kasie Roberson and you’re listening to This Is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Kasie Roberson: 

When we think about AI, and as it continues to evolve into the future, it will get bigger, it will be integrated more. And so the more we can understand how it works and how we can best use it, the better it’s going to be. And I do believe, especially when we think about Gen Z, that if we look at how do we continue to use this with an authentic voice, use it with integrity, so be honest and transparent about how we’re using it, then we’re going to use AI more responsibly. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Dr. Kasie Roberson. Kasie is a nationally recognized business communication expert and a clinical associate professor in the Department of Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management, as well as head of the Center for Working Well’s Leadership Coaching Institute within Purdue’s Daniels School of Business. Kasie also received her PhD in communication from Purdue in 2005 and is a proud boilermaker. 

As an educator and mentor, she guides undergraduate and graduate students in developing foundational business communication skills, covering topics like critical thinking, emotional intelligence, and best practices for using AI as an effective communication tool. Recently, Kasie spoke about AI and how Gen Z can embrace it with curiosity and not fear at the inaugural Sunniefest in Dallas, Texas. Purdue’s presence at Sunniefest is part of a larger collaboration with Sunnie, which was announced this summer by Reese Witherspoon at Cannes Lions. 

As the exclusive education partner of Sunnie, Purdue is co-developing online curricula, encouraging continued learning for adults, and creating content that helps Gen Z explore how STEM connects their interests and future goals. So in this episode, we’re going to dive deeper with Kasie and learn how students can effectively use AI in the classroom and real world while keeping their authentic voice, values, and ideas at the center. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Kasie. 

Dr. Kasie, thank you so much for joining us on This Is Purdue, the official university podcast. We’ve spent a lot of time together. We were just at the first Sunniefest in Dallas, Texas, where you spoke on a panel, and we discussed a lot of different things at that conference. It’s like the curiosity around AI and not being afraid of it. We have so much to discuss today. Thank you so much for coming. 

Kasie Roberson: 

Thank you so much for having me. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s get into it. AI is in the news a lot. Lots of headlines about it right now, right? 

Kasie Roberson: 

Yes. Yes. 

Kate Young: 

So we know that younger generations, Gen Z specifically, really started using AI in school and also, though, at work in social situations. But as a professor who’s actually teaching and mentoring this generation, what do you see as far as what their relationship with AI is really like? 

Kasie Roberson: 

Thank you for that question. It’s such an important one right now. And when we think about Gen Z, we need to think about the age range of what Gen Z is. So Gen Z is ages 13 to about 28. We’re thinking latter part of junior high, all of high school, all of college, and even into early career makes up Gen Z. Gen Z is like what we call digital natives. They grew up really with smartphones and social media platforms being a part of just society. It was something normal for them. 

So when we think about how Gen Z and really all of us are really rumbling with artificial intelligence, I think it’s important to think about a couple things. And I do have some anecdotal data that I can tell you from my own experiences teaching over in the Daniels School of Business. Some of the things I’m seeing are actually really tracking with what some big research is showing. And so I’ll mention a few things. Gallup. So Gallup had a study that just came out this past spring, and it was done by the Gallup Walton Family Foundation. They did a big study looking at voices of Gen Z and then how American youth view and use artificial intelligence. 

And what I found actually is tracking some with what I see in the classroom. So I’ll just go over a few things for you here because I think it’s really interesting. First, they are talking about in their key findings that most Gen Zers say that they do use generative AI. So things like ChatGPT, or Gemini, or Copilot. So almost like 80% are using it. But something that’s interesting is that they’re saying that those tools are more likely to make them anxious than it is to make them excited or hopeful. 

Kate Young: 

Wow. 

Kasie Roberson: 

And I think that’s an interesting thing that we have to look at. I think one of the biggest issues that’s happening is that they don’t feel prepared to use the tool. And whenever you’re not prepared to do something, you’re going to get nervous. I think that’s one of the biggest things we’re seeing right now, where they are using it, they’re willing to learn it, but they want more tools to do that. And we’re doing that over in the Daniels School. We’re providing them with some of those tools. 

Kate Young: 

Tell us about some of those tools that you all are using. 

Kasie Roberson: 

I’ll tell you a little story, if that’s okay. 

Kate Young: 

Yeah. 

Kasie Roberson: 

We started back in 2021. I developed our strategic business writing course. It’s our core undergraduate business writing course that all Daniels students undergrads take. The course originally started as just a pilot course, one section, and we wanted to see how it went. I started with what I call my people-first framework. And this was, again, spring 2021 before ChatGPT and AI started to make its appearance, which that didn’t happen until November 2022, the very end of November. 

So the class started, I had this people-first framework, which I know we may talk about a little bit later. There are people-first skills, things like audience analysis, emotional intelligence, et cetera. And I knew that these people-first skills are things that students need to take into the workplace. So we started that, and then we were talking about different types of business writing and so forth. Well, the class was very popular. 

Long story short, today, this year, there are 35 sections of the course being taught across five faculty, and I do teach some of those sections. And so it’s grown substantially. My undergraduate textbook that I wrote that came out in May 2024, we’re using it. It has that people-first framework, but then it also has best practices for using artificial intelligence. 

When ChatGPT first came out at the end of November of 2022, I remember I was actually at a dinner party with some colleagues from the Daniels School of Business. Someone said, “Have you heard of ChatGPT?” And they knew I was actually under book contract and was writing a book at that time. I said, “Yes, but I haven’t had a chance to look at it.” I went home, I looked it up more. I didn’t sleep well that night. I woke up the next day, and I turned to my husband, who is also a professor at Purdue, and I said, “I need to contact my editor.” And he said, “What are you going to do?” And I said, “Well, I’m going to pivot. I’m going to talk to my editor, and I’m going to say” … Because I’d already written the first five chapters, which was this people-first framework and it’s a great foundation for anyone. 

I said, “We’re going to keep that. But then, when I move in to talk about traditional types of writing, I’m going to learn. I’m going to figure it out, see whatever research is out there, but I’m going to go into ChatGPT, and I’m going to figure out what are best practices.” I contacted my editor. We had a meeting. And so my editor at Kendall Hunt Publishing was just incredible. I said, “I think we need to have one of the first books to market to talk about best practices in AI, and I’m going to figure this out.” He said, “I love this. Let’s do this.” 

By fall 2023, less than a year after ChatGPT came out, we were already teaching best practices in the undergraduate business core writing class. And then my book came out in May 2024, and now it’s available where people and students across the country can do it and use it, but we were already putting into place some of the best tools that they could use. So that’s the story of the class. And I think the evolution of it really speaks to the boilermaker spirit of let’s be one of the first to do something. We are a flagship in so many ways, and I think we are a flagship when it comes to artificial intelligence, not only in the Daniels School with what we’re doing, but across the university. 

I’m a boilermaker myself besides being a faculty member. I graduated with my PhD from Purdue in 2005. It was in me that we have to do this. I’m so glad that we did because I know it’s making a positive impact for our students. 

Kate Young: 

With your experiences with students, you also have Gen Z children. 

Kasie Roberson: 

I do, yes. 

Kate Young: 

What are some of the questions that students have about using AI as a tool? 

Kasie Roberson: 

Yes, absolutely. So a lot of the criticisms and even some of the things the Gallup study was saying was that some of the criticisms are they’re afraid that it’s going to hinder their critical thinking. And some people have said, “Well, we can’t use artificial intelligence in the classroom because then they’re not going to know how to write.” And the same argument was actually made about the calculator when it first came out. If we use calculators, no one’s going to know how to do math. Well, we all know how to do math to some degree, right? 

Kate Young: 

To some degree. 

Kasie Roberson: 

To some degree. So when we think about this, any tool can be used for good or bad. AI, absolutely. If you just plug in what you want and just say, “Write this essay for me,” or “Write this for me,” and you don’t do any really human thinking and put any of yourself into it, then it will. It will hinder your critical thinking. And that’s not what we teach. That is not a best practice. 

In fact, what we do is we provide opportunities for our students to … When they turn in an assignment where they use AI, they turn in like a packet. And so they turn in a first draft that is their original thoughts, no AI at all. Then they have to turn in their prompt that they use to edit or revise, and we teach them prompt engineering. They turn in their prompt, they turn in a screenshot of what AI provided back. So whether it’s ChatGPT, Gemini, Copilot, whatever it is. The next thing they provide is their revision that has some of the AI incorporated, but they can’t include everything that AI gave back to them. 

And then the last thing we have them do is write a reflection on it. And the reflection is, what did they find helpful about using AI for this task? What did they not like about it? How do they envision using AI in the future for something like this? So the students, the first time I did this assignment back in the fall of 2023, I was so surprised at how critical the students were of the AI. And now I’ve seen it every semester. They find some things to be really helpful, but there are some things they don’t like, and they do not want it to take over their authentic voice, which I love that. 

And that’s something about Gen Z is that they really do care about having their voice heard, which is important because this generation, when you’re this young, you are still finding your voice. And so the fact that they don’t want to let it take over means that they’re more likely to not let it take over their critical thinking, too, which is a very good thing. 

Kate Young: 

During Kasie’s fireside chat with Gen Z AI activist and researcher, Neha Shukla, at Sunniefest, she explained the three pillars of AI. And when it comes to Gen Z, we know this generation craves authenticity. So how is Kasie teaching and mentoring younger students when it comes to using AI? And how does she guide the conversation around using it from the classroom to their future careers? 

Kasie Roberson: 

When we think about AI, I think there’s a few different things we can think about. Mindset, authenticity, and integrity are three really great ways to look at AI, but also look at your life, too. They definitely apply in lots of ways. So, mindset, when we think about, just like we talked before about how AI, because it’s new, can be a little scary for people. Whenever we think about our mindset, our mindset is something that we can choose. So we can have a growth mindset, we can have a fixed mindset. 

And so if we are thinking, “I don’t want to try something new. I just want to do what I’ve always done,” that’s more of a fixed mindset. It can keep us sometimes from really being able to pursue some of our goals if we are not willing to try new things. We can also sometimes find ourselves getting into a negative mindset, especially when we’re afraid of something. If anyone has ever thought about like, “What if this happens? What if that happens?” You immediately go negative. That negative mindset, we can flip it. What if something good happens? What if this turns out really well? 

Sometimes with AI, it’s easy to get into more of a negative fixed mindset like, “I don’t want to try this. I’m scared of it.” Especially given the fact that there’s still a lot of places in schools, whether it’s a certain classroom or K-12 education, where they’re like, “You cannot use this. You cannot use this,” because they’re still honestly grappling with how to integrate it into education. And that’s something I think that we do need to talk more about just as a society of where do we go with that. But the mindset’s important. 

So let’s try to look at it from a growth mindset, from a positive mindset, understand that there are limitations, not be blind to those, but how do we move forward in a productive way? That’s the first one. But then authenticity. We talked a little bit about that authentic voice and how important it is. I mentioned at Sunniefest that your authentic voice is like your fingerprint. And your fingerprint’s unique, it’s different, no one else has it, and that’s the same thing with your voice. And so you want to make sure that no other human intelligence and no other artificial intelligence is quieting that voice that’s yours because it’s unique, it’s special, it needs to be heard, it needs to be at the table. 

So then we also have integrity. And integrity is how do we use AI ethically? And I think the biggest thing is, let’s just be honest and transparent about how we’re using AI. If we’re doing that, then there shouldn’t be an issue. It’s not like you’re hiding something and so forth. And I think integrity really ties back into authenticity because I feel like if we’re showing up authentically, we’re going to be showing up with more integrity. 

Kate Young: 

How can adults, parents, educators, mentors, coaches, anyone who interact with children, how can they positively shape a student’s experience with AI? 

Kasie Roberson: 

I think if we go back to that growth mindset, that positive mindset, let’s look at this as a tool. It’s just another tool that we can use. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having healthy boundaries and healthy parameters around how we use AI. And I do think that we should be clear about that like, “Hey, we’re only going to use AI in this capacity.” And that’s exactly what we do in our strategic business writing classes. We’re going to use it here, here, and here, but we’re not going to use it over here because we have different learning objectives for this assignment. 

And so I think when we explain that to them, which Generation Z is a why generation, they want to know why. And I love that about them because I want to know why about a lot of things, too. And so I think it’s really healthy to just be able to say, “Here’s how we’re using it. Here’s why we’re using it this way.” And people can then buy into it because no one, and this is something I talk about in my people-first approach and framework when I talk about emotional intelligence, is that we want to look towards buy-in and not compliance. 

And so if we can get anyone to buy into something like, “Hey, we’re going to use AI this way. It’s going to help you in certain ways and so forth,” people are going to be more likely to follow those rules instead of if you just say, “You have to use it just like this, and I’m not going to explain why.” Then people, even children, are going to push back on that because there’s a universal truth about people. It’s an old communication theory, it’s a politeness theory, where people want to be valued, respected, and they want to have some autonomy. And so if we’re explaining and getting buy-in with that, then they’re going to be more successful. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s talk about your people-first approach because in your teaching, you advocate for this strongly when it comes to both communication skills and using AI as a tool. So talk a little bit about this approach. 

Kasie Roberson: 

Anyone who knows me knows that I really love my people-first approach. And it really consists of five big skills. And they are audience analysis, emotional intelligence, critical thinking and problem solving, building connection and trust, and communication ethics. They’re the first five chapters in my textbook. We walk through those, and I give actually a lot of talks on this. I call it the communicating well at work using five people-first skills. 

This resonates with every audience I talk to, whether it’s undergraduate students, it’s staff here at Purdue, it’s executive audiences at organizations where I’m doing workshops or keynotes. These really resonate with people because the hardest part of anyone’s job is usually working with other people. And so it’s not in terms of like if you’re technically trained well, you’re going to go in and, in a silo, you can do your job well. But that’s not the way most companies and organizations work. You are going to be working with other people, and there’s going to be conflict sometimes. There’s going to be miscommunication. And these five people-first skills are going to help set you up for success, and it’s going to help you to communicate well at work. 

So when we think about audience analysis. So like if you and I were going to be having a one-on-one meeting, I would go in, and I would have some talking points, but I would be thinking about not just what I want out of the conversation, but what do you want out of the conversation? So who are you? What do you care about? What’s the best way to communicate with you, et cetera? And then there’s emotional intelligence, which is the second one. And emotional intelligence is getting really curious about the emotions that you’re experiencing and thinking about them before you respond. And then also trying to understand and be empathetic about where other people are coming from when they’re communicating with you. 

And then we also have critical thinking and problem solving, which is a lot of core competencies of what you do in your job and how you communicate, building connection and trust, which has a component of authenticity, strategic thinking, et cetera. And then communication ethics, which is really about like a personal standards of ethics. So being honest, being fair, being transparent, being responsible, et cetera. 

Kate Young: 

So a lot of institutions, especially in education, are trying to develop these policies around Gen Z and Gen Alpha’s AI usage. I know you just said K through 12, they’re like, “Whoa, we don’t even want to get into that yet.” What should these organizations consider when they’re creating policies? 

Kasie Roberson: 

I do think a lot of K-12 are talking about it. They just haven’t implemented anything yet. And so I do believe Purdue is, again, a flagship for, we already have some AI policies, we’re currently building more. I’m currently serving on an AI task force in the Daniels School of Business. We’re looking at new things to recommend to the university, et cetera. It’s definitely evolving because AI is evolving. 

But I do think that in higher education, it’s important for us to pay attention to what’s happening in K-12 education because those are the students who are coming to us. And I know K-12 educators want to prepare students for the world, whether it’s education or going straight into the workforce, they want to prepare them as best they can. And I have the highest respect for K-12 educators. 

And so when we think about the K-12 education, I think there are a couple things that I dream about. I dream that as we start to develop artificial intelligence and put it into curriculum, which I think will eventually happen, I hope that we will also run a parallel path that will be connected of putting more emotional intelligence into the curriculum as well. Because if we can do a blend of that people first, that emotional intelligence, and helping people to navigate and understand their voice, their emotions, their feelings, while we’re also bringing in artificial intelligence, I think that could be a game changer in a lot of ways. I think that as K-12 educators start thinking about this more, I hope that they’ll think about both of those and how that could fit into curriculum. 

Kate Young: 

As a strategic communications expert, you also help students think through foundational skills, emotional intelligence. We talked about critical thinking, problem solving. How do you think all of those play a role, that people-first approach, when it comes to using AI? 

Kasie Roberson: 

I think that if you are using a people-first approach, then you are going to show up more authentically. You’re going to remember AI does not know the person that I’m writing this email to. Only I know … 

Kate Young: 

That’s a great point. 

Kasie Roberson: 

… this person, right? Because AI really can only work with the situation context that you give it. We think that AI knows everything, and it knows a lot, but it does not know as much as we know. We have to make sure that when we use that people-first approach that we keep in mind that AI is limited. We also have to keep in mind a couple things about AI, that AI can be wrong, just flat out wrong. 

Kate Young: 

Yup. 

Kasie Roberson: 

You cannot trust it. You have to fact-check it. You have to go and make sure, because it can hallucinate and make up things. It also can have biased information. It also can … When we think about AI, we want to make sure that we never put anything confidential into AI. If I’m writing an email to someone and maybe I want to revise it or something and polish it, and I’m trying to be more efficient because I have a lot of emails to return, I make sure that, first of all, there’s nothing confidential in here. I take out any names, I redact those, and I keep it like a basic structure. 

And then that way, you are not providing it with too much detail. So I think that it’s healthy to use in certain ways, like brainstorming, outlining, maybe revising something, but you also want to keep control of what information you’re putting into, like ChatGPT and so forth. 

Kate Young: 

I know I have personally used it. At first, I had a little bit of a negative mindset. I’m like, “I want to be true to my voice and stay creative.” But it’s very helpful for little either combining certain sentences into one thought. I’ve found that that’s very helpful, but then also, oh, can you make this email a little bit more firm in a polite, professional way, right? 

Kasie Roberson: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

But there’s so many uses for it that do make sense and it does really help, especially in a professional setting, I think. 

Kasie Roberson: 

Yes, absolutely. 

Kate Young: 

So what advice do you have for students who are curious about using AI but may not have used it yet? 

Kasie Roberson: 

If they’re brand new, just try something easy. If you want to use it for brainstorming, just pick a topic that you’re interested in, maybe you know a little bit about, and then just see. And you can test the waters with it to see like if I ask it, “What is the date next Friday?” Sometimes it gives you the wrong date. It’s not the correct day. And so I’m like, “Hmm, that’s not right.” But then it also can provide really helpful information very quickly. 

Just take something you know something a little bit about, maybe do a little brainstorm with it, or maybe take some writing again that is not confidential, nothing like intellectual property or something. When I write, I’m writing a book right now, I would never put that in ChatGPT. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a good point. Yeah. 

Kasie Roberson: 

I don’t want to know what it has to say. I am not interested in that. And so I wouldn’t put anything that you feel like I own this, but maybe put like, “Hey, I had this one paragraph and I felt like it wasn’t exactly where I wanted.” So ask it to help you to revise it, to make it maybe a little bit more concise or something like that. So I would say just play with ChatGPT a little bit to just see what it can do and where your comfort level is. And I think that would be a good start. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s dive into some of the fun things that you can do with AI. I know people we were traveling with to Dallas for Sunniefest used it to book restaurant reservations to look up things to do. You and I talked about, “Hey, I have this, this, and this in my fridge. What can I make with it?” Tell us about a couple of fun things that you can do with AI that might be outside the box. 

Kasie Roberson: 

So I can tell you a couple things. Definitely one of the ones we talked about before was, and I’ve used this recently on more than one occasion, where I have limited amount of ingredients in my fridge and in my pantry because I need to go to the grocery store. I was working from home, and I thought, “What are we going to do for dinner tonight?” And I want to do something in slow cooker so I can be productive with work. I plugged that into ChatGPT and said, “Here are these ingredients because I thought they made sense to maybe go together, but I wasn’t sure what to do.” And absolutely, it came out with three different recipes. I picked which one I wanted, and I threw it in there, and everyone was thrilled with dinner, and they were like, “What is this new recipe?” 

I mean, it impressed my teenagers, which was great. So that’s a fun thing. One thing I did over the summer … Because I don’t always keep everything in ChatGPT. I’ll erase things occasionally and so forth because I don’t want to have a whole bunch of stuff there, but I asked it to vision board with me a day in the life of what I would be doing five years from now. And I listed out some of the things that I envision for myself five years from now, and things that I want to be doing with my work and so forth as a faculty member here at Purdue. The way it approached my day, I was like, “I like this. This is good.” So I think it can help you with imagining things and looking at things in maybe a different way. And so I think it just depends on how you want to use it. 

Kate Young: 

We talked a little bit about this with the comparison of the calculator and not being able to do math. The late ’90s, early 2000s, Wikipedia, using that as a source. What are some of those common ethical questions that come up with students using AI in the classroom? 

Kasie Roberson: 

I remember the days in the early 2000s when I was a graduate student here at Purdue, and students would turn in something, and it had Wikipedia as a source. I was like, “This is not a legitimate source. You cannot use this.” When we think about AI … So the latest version of ChatGPT in particular has gotten much better at this, where now it’ll provide a link, and you can go to a primary source. And that’s something we’ve said for a long time. Wherever you get information, the best information is always a primary source, where you’re citing something exactly from where it comes from. 

Now, as we mentioned, ChatGPT can still be wrong, and if it doesn’t cite something, you should definitely be skeptical, but you want to click on that. If it provides a source, click on it, go to it, make sure that it’s correct. If you go to the primary source, then I think you’re probably going to be okay. And that’s actually one of the biggest developments that they really tried to address some of those hallucinations that are happening, but they do still exist. 

Kate Young: 

What do you think the future of AI looks like for students and younger generations overall? 

Kasie Roberson: 

AI is just going to continue to grow and get bigger and bigger, and we’re going to see it in more and more places. Of course, I look at AI from a communication lens, like how do we use it to help improve communication? And there’s lots of other people here at Purdue and other places who are looking at AI in lots of different ways, in lots of different industries. I’ll stick to my wheelhouse. 

When we think about AI and as it continues to grow, and I do believe that I felt this even in December 2022, which is why I made a pivot in my book, that I was like, “Ugh, I don’t want to write a book that’s just going to be automatically outdated.” I want it to be something that’s really helpful and impactful for students. And that’s why I’m a professor is because I care so much about helping people to develop really important skills like communication that I know can make such a difference in their life. But when we think about AI, and as it continues to evolve into the future, it will get bigger, it will be integrated more. 

And so the more we can understand how it works and how we can best use it, the better it’s going to be. And I do believe, especially when we think about Gen Z, that if we look at how do we continue to use this with an authentic voice, use it with integrity, so be honest and transparent about how we’re using it, we’re going to use AI more responsibly, and I think that that’s an important part of the future of AI. 

Kate Young: 

I love that, being honest and authentic about how you’re using it. And speaking of the future as well, you’re the head of the Leadership Coaching Institute within the Center for Working Well in the Daniels School of Business, but you all have some exciting things coming up. So I want to give you an opportunity to talk about that and tell us what the latest news is. 

Kasie Roberson: 

Thank you so much for asking about that. We’re very excited about the new Leadership Coaching Institute, which is housed in the Center for Working Well in the Daniels School of Business. The Leadership Coaching Institute, one of the things that we are so excited about that we’re going to be piloting in the spring, due to a just incredibly generous donation, is that we’re going to start to offer undergraduate executive coaching. And we’re going to start on a small scale. So we are going to be one of the first in the country to be able to offer this to undergraduate students. 

Most people, when they get executive coaching, it’s not until mid-career, and if they’re lucky. So we are going to help students start their careers with a coaching mindset. So we’ll be talking about things like communication and grit and resilience and persistence. So we’re very excited about that part of it. Also in the Leadership Coaching Institute, we are developing right now, with Executive Education that’s going to launch later this spring, an asynchronous program that’s going to look at working well and leadership topics. But then we’re also going to have a synchronous component, where once a week, because it’ll be about six weeks, in their cohort of about 40, they’ll get to meet with their faculty expert on that topic and participate in a leadership lab. 

So what’s great about this is that it will be like a small grouping of 40. It’ll be very convenient. People can do it from wherever. So if we have any boilermaker alums who want to come back and do something, they will be welcome, too. But it’s going to be something that I think is going to be really meaningful for people and we’re very excited about that. We also are currently continuing to work with companies on Working Well journeys where we develop customized programming for them and that all runs the Leadership Coaching Institute. 

So we talk about things like managing stress, burnout, motivating employees, communicating well at work, et cetera. We have a number of topics that we talk about and people have found it really impactful for them. And we, again, love helping people. And so the Leadership Coaching Institute has a lot of great things happening, and we are so grateful for all the support, really, from the Mitch Daniels School of Business on this. 

Kate Young: 

That is so exciting and congratulations. 

Kasie Roberson: 

Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you again for joining us. Is there anything else that I missed that you want to talk about when it comes to AI or anything in the future coming up for you? 

Kasie Roberson: 

I just want to say … Well, first of all, thank you so much for this opportunity. And I do want to mention just really briefly what an incredible event Sunniefest was when we went. It was so inspiring. And to be on that stage and to be able to talk about AI, to see it resonate with the young people in the audience, I think that we need to have more conversations like that and like this because when we think about AI moving into the future, just like when we think about, I think, emotional intelligence, too, there’s so much opportunity for growth and there’s so much that we can do to improve people’s lives. 

That’s why I do what I do is because I truly just want to help other people. And I know that when people develop their communication skills, it is going to make a positive difference in their lives. For me, I feel really lucky and blessed to be able to do that and to be able to do that here at Purdue in the Daniels School of Business. It’s really just an amazing opportunity, and it’s a dream come true for me. 

Kate Young: 

It was so special seeing all of the young people listening to you at the panel, and they’re so excited, and they have so many ideas. It was just a great experience. 

Kasie Roberson: 

It’s amazing. When you work with young people that were there at Sunniefest, and I’m so lucky to get to work with our students here at Purdue, the energy that is on a college campus. Because I write a lot in the summer and then I come back. I’m always ready to come back in the fall and I love the energy of when the students are on campus. And I like to walk around campus and just see the buzz. And there’s something so special about Purdue. 

And I know I’m biased because I’m an alum, too, but there’s something so special about this place and the students. And even though we are a big university, this is a place where people can find their place and find belonging. And I think that is so unique and special, and I just love being a part of that. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a theme of this podcast. So I appreciate you hitting on that. 

Kasie Roberson: 

Absolutely. 

Kate Young: 

It was so fun getting to know you, and this conversation was incredible. So thank you for coming. 

Kasie Roberson: 

Thank you so much, Kate. I really appreciate it. 

Kate Young: 

That was an incredible chat. I hope you all learned at least one thing you can take away and utilize in your own AI experiences. We have more fun clips from Sunniefest with Kasie on our This Is Purdue podcast YouTube channel. She talks about a few common misconceptions when it comes to AI and much more. Be sure to check it out. 

And if you’re interested in learning more about AI, the Sunnie and Purdue playbook from AI to IRL offers guidance and prompts on how students can use AI with confidence. We’ll link that in our show notes for you as well. This Is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone in collaboration with Jon Garcia, Alli Chaney, and Zach Mogensen. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glozbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood and Rebecca Robinos. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production manager is Dalani Young. 

Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, boiler up.

Anthony Cawdron: 

This is Anthony Cawdron and you are listening to This Is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This Is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps, and inspiring others to do the same. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Your resume says a lot about you, but it’s only two-dimensional. The way people present themselves. If you look like you’re looking after your own clothes and your shoes are shined, it’s likely to tell me that you’re going to look after someone else’s assets just as well. I do start out by saying a lot of this is common sense. The problem is that sense isn’t that common any more. And it’s not rocket science, it does help rocket scientists get better jobs. 

Kate Young: 

Are you looking to brush up on a few conversation starters, etiquette tips, and holiday hosting how-tos before Thanksgiving and the rest of the holidays hit this year? Well, look no further because this episode of This Is Purdue has got you covered. This incredible conversation first aired last November, and since it’s one of our most popular episodes, we wanted to share it with you all again as the holiday season approaches. Get ready to entertain and impress your guests or crush that big interview after listening to this one. 

In this episode of This Is Purdue, we’re talking to Anthony Cawdron, Westwood event coordinator and estate manager. Westwood is the official home to Purdue’s presidents since the 1970s, and currently President Mung Chiang and his family reside in this historic home. Now, if you’ve ever had the chance to go to Westwood for an event or a dinner as either a student, alumni, or staff or faculty member, you likely know Anthony. But just in case, here’s a quick bit of background on him before we dive into this episode. 

Anthony has been at Purdue for 25 years now, but he’s originally from the UK. He’s lived all over the world and has even worked in a few European castles. He also teaches a business etiquette course here at Purdue. So from job interviews, to networking events, to holiday parties, Anthony is sharing his best etiquette tips with us. What’s a great way to spur small talk? What should you order for an interview over lunch? And what’s a polite way to leave a party? And it is not the Irish exit. Plus, during this special interview last year, Anthony made us homemade English goodies and tea, which is very fitting for his background. There’s really no better place for Anthony to tell us about his Boilermaker journey than within the walls of Westwood. Okay, so let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Anthony. 

Anthony, thank you so much for joining us today on This Is Purdue. We’re thrilled to talk to you. We have some lovely snacks and tea that are set up. Tell us a little bit about this, before we dig into Westwood and your journey, okay? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. So we have the classic English cucumber sandwiches. So the cucumbers on thin-sliced bread with no crusts. Then we have some profiteroles with some gold dust, of course. And then some macarons with poppy seeds and key lime. And then we have some homemade scones. And there’s a big- 

Kate Young: 

And you made them, right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I made them, yes. I made them this morning. But there’s a big debate on how you pronounce it. Some people say scones, some people say scones. I’m a scones side. And then when we eat them, there’s a big debate as to which you put on first, is the jam or the cream. And I’m jam first, then cream. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That’s just the way I do it, but a lot of people are wrong. 

Kate Young: 

Well, thank you so much for having us here and for making- 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’re welcome. Thank you for coming. Yes, absolutely. 

Kate Young: 

… this lovely arrangement. We’re at Westwood. This is the home to Purdue’s presidents. You’ve been here as the estate manager and event coordinator for over 20 years. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, 24 last week. Or last month. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, my goodness. Congratulations. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

So you’re actually from the UK though, I’m sure our listeners can tell by- 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Sometimes. Everyone in England thinks I have an American accent. 

Kate Young: 

Oh. Well, we’re excited to get into your journey, like I said. This property is so beautiful. I’m sure no day is the same for you. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No, which is actually one of the good things. At 24 years, if the days were all the same, you wouldn’t be able to do it. So I think that having variety, and different events, and different things going on, and different people coming in and out, and projects that don’t involve guests as well, all of that. I’ve been keeping the outside looking good, and redoing the driveways, and all those type of things. 

Kate Young: 

Yes. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. Tell us about your journey to West Lafayette, since we do know you’re from the UK. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

How did your experiences overseas set you up for success here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. So my father was in the Air Force, so I was a military brat, if you’d like it that way. So we moved a lot when I was growing up. We lived in Hong Kong and Singapore, then returned to England where I finished my high school. And then did catering college for two years, and then went to work in Switzerland for a year. And then came back and finished my degree at Oxford Brooks University. Then got into, almost by accident, working at Blenheim Palace. That then turned into Sutton Place, being the butler there at 21, which was a little daunting. My first guest was Prince Phillip, so it was a little overwhelming at times, but did that. And then went back in the restaurant industry. 

Then had a call from somebody who said, “Would you like to teach?” So I moved to Switzerland again and taught in a hotel school there. And then had an opportunity to do a work abroad project with Iowa State, ostensibly for a year. So I left Switzerland intending to come back and I haven’t gone back yet. So that was 34 years ago. So I think that overall, travel and just being involved in international hotels and restaurants and seeing things from that perspective is really what started me interested in the events business and catering and that type of thing. 

Kate Young: 

Anthony explains how his experiences working within the Blenheim Palace and Sutton Place in England ignited his passion for event planning and etiquette. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I think it gave me an opportunity to see exactly how things should be done and just the attention to detail, and how to look after people, and working with people from higher ranks if you like, and royalty, and all of those type of things. So I think it set me up quite well as being able to handle guests of every caliber and every background. 

Kate Young: 

As Anthony previously mentioned, he left Switzerland for a work abroad project in the US at Iowa States in Ames, Iowa. It was there that he met former Purdue President Martin Jischke and his wife Patty. Anthony discusses how being at Iowa State and meeting this couple changed the trajectory of his career. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So I was there, as I said, for a year. And then during that year, I think for the first time, people really tried to nurture me and continue my education. So it was suggested I take my Master’s degree there at Iowa State, which I did. And then the Jischke’s arrived during that period, and certainly were well aware that they needed somebody to be more involved with the events side of things because the previous president had not done as much entertaining as they wanted. So they asked me to do a couple of things just to help out to start with, and then it developed into part-time, full-time, and then eight years working with them at Iowa State. Yes, it was a wonderful opportunity. 

Kate Young: 

So how did they ask you to come to Purdue? How did you finally end up here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It was a big debate in Ames as to whether I would or whether I wouldn’t go. And it was actually the Des Moines Register put more interest in my leaving than them. So it was will he go, won’t he go, will he go, won’t he go? So I flew here with Patty and Martin on a couple of occasions to look around and see whether liked it. So it was a pleasant surprise, so I said, “Okay, I’ll come for six months and see how it is.” So I lived in the apartment above the garage for six months and got used to being here, and decided I liked it and said I’d say, and that was, as I said, 24 years ago. 

Kate Young: 

24 years ago. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. 

Kate Young: 

So tell us about your role at Westwood. I know every day is different, but what are some of your duties and responsibilities here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So basically, keeping the house looking as good as it can. I have a team of wonderful housekeepers, Sheila and Tammy, and they do a fantastic job of making sure that the house is already because you never know when the President’s Office may call and say somebody’s coming over and you can’t be just suddenly rushing around. So keeping the house ready. Then obviously, with the events, working with the President’s Office in making sure that we’re up-to-date on what’s happening, whose coming, making name tags, making place cards. And then obviously, working with chef probably once a week to see what events we have coming up. There are weeks when we have fewer events, and then there are weeks where we have lots of different things. 

Kate Young: 

Every night? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. And also, during the day. I’d say that Mitch used to entertain more at breakfast time because there was no family and people getting to school, and things like that. So we did more entertaining in the mornings with him. I say the variety is what keeps it interesting, and obviously the seasons, and the things inside, outside the house as well. 

Kate Young: 

What is one of your earliest memories of Westwood? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I think the first time when, as I say, Patty and I traveled with Martin to come to see what West Lafayette was like, and I’m driving through the gates. Obviously, it’s a president’s house, like many big 10 schools in campus, and we had parking for about five cars in the driveway. And I drove in here and you’ve got almost a mile of drive. So just the setting was very, very different from what we were used to. And just a sense of a big house, and then seeing the spaces that we had to work with was wonderful because, again, the Iowa statehouse was Victorian, so it wasn’t necessarily designed or easy to use as Westwood is. Westwood is very versatile, as we’ve hosted events for eight people or 250 people, so it’s a lot of things like that. 

Can I pour you some tea? 

Kate Young: 

Yes! Oh, my gosh, please do. And we have to try one of the homemade scones. Did I say it right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You did. So this teapot is actually from the Shaw china that was given to the house back in the 1990s, and we have some pieces. Unfortunately, it’s aging so it does need some care and it’s not always leaking, but this one is not. We’re doing so far. 

Kate Young: 

It’s beautiful. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. 

Kate Young: 

Now, do you enjoy milk with your tea? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I do take milk in my tea. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. I do, too. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I’m not doing it the right way because if you put milk in first, then that’s very … 

Kate Young: 

Good to know. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And that’s where the phrase miffed comes from. MIF, milk in first, and people who put milk in first are second class. 

Kate Young: 

We’re learning all types of things on this podcast today. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

All right. We’ll give you a sandwich. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you so much. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’re very welcome. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, so fast-forward. President Jischke leaves in 2007. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

What made you want to stay here at Purdue? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

We know that Dr. Jischke was going to retire in 2007, so that was all expected. And then when Dr. Cordova and Chris Foster came here on a sightseeing trip, visit, I was obviously here and was cooking breakfast for them. And then they said, “Will you stay?” And I said, again, “Yes, we’ll give it a try.” So it’s become a hand me down thing. I think you get the house, you get him, too. 

Kate Young: 

I think they’re thrilled to have you though with the house. So what has it been like for you to experience the Midwest? Back when you lived in the UK, did you ever picture yourself where you are now? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No, I really didn’t. When I was in Switzerland, some of my students there said, “You’ll absolutely hate it. You won’t fit in, it’ll be awful and you won’t like it, and you’ll be back. You won’t even stay the year.” So I was somewhat, not worried, but trepidation I’d say. Because I called the bank in London and said, “Can I set up an account?” And they went, “Ooh, not sure. Where are you going to live?” And I said, “Iowa.” They said, “Ooh.” They said, “We think there’s a bank in Des Moines.” I said, “Well, you have to drive 20 miles to a bank, that’s not the worst thing in the world.” And then you arrive in Ames and there are multi-story hotels, a huge stadium, and massive, massive buildings. You think, “We’ll be okay.” 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

What are a few of your most significant memories from your 24 years here? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Gosh. I think entertaining. We’ve had three Secretaries of State come to dinner. Madeline Albright, Colin Powell, and Condoleezza Rice, they’ve been wonderful. The Secretary of the Navy. So I think it’s guests. Laura Bush when the convocation happened for her and the two girls, so that was interesting. Especially the time constraints placed on us for that event were amazing because they wanted a three-course meal in 37 minutes. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, my goodness. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So it was very, very tight timing, but we pulled it off and everyone went away happy. So it’s the guests and the different personalities of people. 

The nice thing about Westwood is that it is, as many people call it, the front door to the university. So we have students, hosting the Reamer Club come on an annual tour, the freshman Reamers. So they come on a tour of the house so that they know when they drive the train around, what is behind those doors if people ask. And then we have faculty, so we have faculty events. We have deans tonight. We have a faculty event most months. So it’s a nice use of the house for people who are on-campus. And then obviously, alums coming back. We entertain many, many, people so I think that variety is great. 

Kate Young: 

We’ve discussed, you’ve lived through several presidents here. Do you have any fun behind-the-scenes stories, anything that would surprise our listeners maybe? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’ll have to wait for the book. No. No, I don’t. I think things just happen and in 24 years, it drifts away. I supposed the cats coming in by mistake is interesting. Suddenly, somebody comes to me and says, “Here’s a cat.” Because they live outside and keep our mouse population down. 

Kate Young: 

Oh. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

But occasionally they manage to sneak in. When the Jischke’s were here, we had a dog, so that was also a challenge at times. 

Kate Young: 

Was he or she in the way? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

She. No, she was never in the way, but she would sometimes escape from the kitchen and be in places that she wasn’t supposed to be. And also, liked to get out, and go and find the dirtiest, muddiest places to roll as dogs do. I’m trying to think of anything else? 

Obviously, the gates have been an issue when power goes out. I’d get phone calls from the president saying, “I’m stuck outside the gate,” so I would have to drive over and climb the gate in the rain, and release the hydraulics on the gate, and open the gate so that they could come in. One time we had a power outage and the president at the time was trying to pack for a trip. So we had to get the Purdue Fire Department to bring one of the fire engines, or the fire truck, sorry. I’m not in England anymore. A fire truck up here and plug it in, they ran their generator so that we could have a light in the packing area so that they could pack their suitcases. 

Kate Young: 

Wow. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Other than that, I don’t think we’ve … We’ve managed to keep it pretty sane. 

Kate Young: 

How have you seen this iconic home change over the years? We were chatting before this and there’s been all types of renovations. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. So the house has morphed from a two-bedroom cottage when it was built in 1934 into the 17,000-square-feet that it is now. When we came in 2000, the house footprint was pretty much as it is. So we’ve made some tweaks, we’ve changed some things. We added a different porch last summer. So we’ve made alterations. The house I think is pretty much at its maximum footprint now. There’s really not much more room for anything, but it works well and what was put in, especially with the big addition that the Beering’s did, has made the house incredibly functional. We have the catering kitchen and the big dining room that we can seat 104 in if we have to. It’s tight, but we can get. So it is a very workable house. I think that’s really the biggest change. People, when they drive up, they don’t realize just how much house there is at the back really. 

Kate Young: 

It’s so stately and beautiful. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

But yes, you don’t really see … When you haven’t been inside before, you haven’t seen the depth of the house. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

The day that our podcast team had the pleasure of visiting Anthony at Westwood, he and his team were setting up for a Purdue deans dinner that evening. I asked Anthony what a typical day of managing Westwood looks like when planning for an event like this. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

We usually have a fair amount of notice about when these events are happening, so obviously we know what the room’s going to look like. Depending on the table, we’ll seat the table in other occasion, but the table is fairly versatile in that we can seat up to 22 at one table, and the president seems to like that feel of everyone being at one table. 

Kate Young: 

More intimate? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Because once you separate people, if the First Lady is there, she can host one table and he can host another, but it still separates the guests. So we’ve done a lot more events with the big, long table. And I will already have talked to chef and we’ve planned the menu, and we do try and feature as much Indiana food as possible just because people like it and we’re using the student farm’s produce at the moment as well. 

So we’ve already planned the menu, so then prior to that I will give our two housekeepers, as I said, Tammy and Sheila, a list of what china we’re using. We have five different sets of china, so depending on the time of day and maybe the type of guest that are coming, we make a choice of which china pattern we’re going to use. So they’ll get that ready for me. Then I’ll put up the tables, put out the chairs, and then start laying tables. And typically, if we have a big event, then I’ll have set the tables up the day before. 

And if we’ve got flowers to be done, I’ll try and get those done and put in the cooler ahead of time. Another nice thing about Westwood is it does have a lot of garden space, so in the spring when we’re planting the gardens, we try and have things that can be cut flowers. Patty Jischke was instrumental in starting the cut flower idea so that we can harvest a lot from the gardens as long as we can. 

So getting the flowers ready, and then having everything on the tables. And then our staff arrive usually about an hour prior to the event. By that time, we’ve probably got name tags out, I’ve done place cards. So there’s that arrangement, that finalizing and getting the final bits out. So the glasses ready for the arrival drinks. And then always being ready for changes. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, pivoting. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, yes. That is the key to this game. 

Kate Young: 

So speaking of that, a lot of our listeners and viewer probably don’t know all of the behind-the-scenes details that go into event planning. It’s a lot more than one might think. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

What are some things that you’ve learned over the years when it comes to event planning and facing some challenges or having to make those pivots? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You definitely get to have a plan B, a plan C, and hopefully never have to use it, but a plan D just in case. So there’s always that backup and being ready for those changes. Even if you don’t want them to happen, just that you know that these things are going to take place. So I think that’s always the key is trying to predict the unlikeliness of things. And that does sometimes get to be a challenge when we’re doing the one long table because it fits 22, not 23. So if a 23rd guest comes, we have a real problem. We have had issues where the room has been full, so we’ve had to suddenly grab a small table from another area in the house and just throw some food and some silverware at it and say, “There we go.” 

But I think anticipating what might happen. So we’ve always got extra food, we’ve got an extra place setting sitting somewhere so that it’s as fast as we can to get it in. People’s diets. Halfway through a meal, they become vegetarian. So you, “Oh, all right, we’re going with that. Well, that’s all right. Yes, that’ll be fine.” So just adapting. 

And when I teach my classes, I always say two of the key elements to being good is adaptability and flexibility. You’ve got to read the situation, work out what’s going to make it happen, and then be ready for something not happening right. 

Kate Young: 

Beyond working at Westwood, Anthony also teaches a business etiquette course at Purdue in the White Lodging-J.W. Marriott, Jr. School of Hospitality and Tourism Management within the College of Health and Human Sciences. I asked him more about this course and what role he believes etiquette plays in modern society. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So I got into it when I was at Iowa State. A fraternity approached me and asked me if I would go in and do a presentation for a fraternity and I thought it’s a one-off. And I would say over 34 years of doing these, how many thousand times I’ve actually given the presentation. So it’s still popular, I still travel. I was in New Orleans in August giving it to a fraternity conference there. I’m speaking next week and the week after to various agronomy classes, so that’s also good. But I think it’s something that people realize they should need. Many people may have been told by an aunt or a grandmother at some point, “Do this, do this,” and they go, “Yeah, whatever.” And then they suddenly realize that perhaps that was useful and that they might find it helpful. 

My classes are usually full, which is great. So we have about 60, 65 students every semester. This is an eight-week class. I do start out by saying a lot of this is common sense. The problem is that sense isn’t that common anymore. And it’s not rocket science, but it does help rocket scientists get better jobs. I think it really, what we’re trying to do is make the students as comfortable as they could be in an environment that they’re not necessarily used to. And being with your peers all the time and eating in the dining court, eating quickly, not worrying about things, and then suddenly you’re placed in this situation where you do have silver, you do have plates, you do have glasses, and you’re being watched. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That’s the deal. Your resume says a lot about you, but it’s only two-dimensional. When you walk in the door, and sit you down and I watch you eat, I think, “I don’t think this is going to work.” That’s why we do it. I’m pleased that professors do ask me to go to their classes and give a presentation. What they remember of it is entirely up to them. I’ve done it for the ROTC and that one is a challenge in and of itself because they meet at 6:00 in the mornings. Doing a presentation for people in uniform at 6:00 in the morning is interesting. 

Kate Young: 

Tell us some of these tips that you’re telling the students when it comes to networking. Interviews over a meal, that’s something I have always struggled with. I don’t necessarily want to be eating and worrying if I have something on my face or eating too slow, eating too fast, right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Right and that is the challenge. And that’s why they put them into that position, is they want to see can you deal with this? So one of the key things I say is when you go to a meal and if it’s somewhere that you’re not familiar with, ask people what they’d recommend. You can gain from that information whether or not these people have an appetizer course. Or if they don’t recommend any appetizers, I probably won’t be ordering an appetizer. Choosing foods that you can eat without using your hands. Choosing foods that you can eat easily while still maintaining a conversation. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So ordering something because you’re trying to show off or think, “Oh, yes, I’ll take advantage of this menu because somebody else is paying,” is generally going to backfire on you. So making wise choices at the table. Keeping pace with the rest of the table. And I do tell people if they’re hosting and the guest of honor is being bombarded with questions, it’s their job to step in and say, “Let’s all have our guest eat a little bit and somebody else talk about their research project or what they’re going to be doing this coming semester,” whatever it happens to be, so that there’s an opportunity for people to catch up. 

And the other thing is to be aware of other people’s needs. A lot of people are focused on their own little space. We do live in a selfie-ish world and it’s all about me, so they don’t think about other people. So passing things that are in front of them, seeing that somebody needs something. You’ve got a cup of coffee, the cream and sugar is next to me, “Would you like some cream and sugar? Could I pass this to you?” Or just keeping an eye on what’s going around. They may be the guest, but if they’re going to be hired by the company and they have taken and interest and said, “Can we get you some more water? Would you like another bread roll?” All of those types of things show me that you are looking outside your own comfort zone and you are willing to take care of other people. So if I do hire you, I won’t have any worries about sending you to a restaurant with our guests because I know that you can do it. 

Balancing conversation and eating. Taking time to actually take the food and then answer the question, don’t try and do both. We have a lot of weaponizing of silverware at the moment, making it look pleasant for other people. I tell students, “Put yourself in front of a camera and watch yourself eat. And if you don’t like it, this is why you’re sitting in front of a camera.” 

Kate Young: 

It’s humbling. Humbling. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So just little details like that because it can come down to the fact that you are a better ambassador of yourself at the table and that may be the key to me saying, “You get the job, you don’t.” 

Kate Young: 

I love that. It’s like if you’re attending to people’s needs, you’re going to be a team player, you’re going to care for your coworkers. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Similarly, the way people present themselves. If you look like you’re looking after your own clothes and your shoes are shined, it’s likely to tell me that you’re going to look after someone else’s assets just as well. Even though your suit may not be the newest, if it’s taken care of and it looks good, then it says to me you can take care of things. Again, little details like that. Shaking hands, making eye contact when you talk to people. Speaking clearly. Especially for introductions, people are so nervous. They speak so quickly and then you have to repeat it. And then say, “Really, slow down, slow down.” 

Kate Young: 

Slow down. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And if you have to, say it again. It’s fine. Or ask somebody their name again. We’re trying to make them as comfortable as possible and feel like their education is the starting point, but what they make out of their lives is something that they have to do. Have a wide range of topics to talk about because if all you can talk about is your school, it’s fine, but there’s a bigger world out there. 

I also tell people to do some research before you go. If your interview’s in Seattle, get the Seattle paper off the internet, read it, find out what’s going on. So that when you go there, you can talk to people who live in Seattle about things that are happening in Seattle. They feel that you have tried to integrate yourself already, rather than just assuming that everything is … I ask my students in class, “Can you name me the mayor of Lafayette?” No. “Can you name me the mayor of West Lafayette?” No. I say, “You’ve lived here for years, you have to be able to think of it. Because if you go to something here and you can do that, people are going to think you really are so distanced from reality.” 

Kate Young: 

Have you ever had students, I’m sure you have, come back to you and say- 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

“… I was in a really trick interview,” or, “Hey, I was at this networking event and I thought back to your class and what you told us?” 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I’d say that the thing I’ve had most people comment on after the fact is the ability to hold a glass, a plate, and a fork in one hand. So you’ve got your plate, your glass, and your fork, and so your right hand is still free to shake hands, and you’re able to deal with all of the food and drink in one hand. And you look sophisticated- 

Kate Young: 

Polished doing it? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… you look polished, and you can multitask and you didn’t need to write it on your resume. But I’ve had several students come back to me and say, “I was the only one who could do it.” Or, “I felt so comfortable because I knew what I was supposed to do, whereas everyone else was juggling things.” Yeah. That one’s probably the one that I get the most. 

So would you like one of these scones now? 

Kate Young: 

Yes. I’m so excited because I don’t think I’ve ever tried one with this cream. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

So tell us. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So English scones typically, and you always split them, you never cut them. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And usually, you have red jam, we call it jam, you call it jelly. We call it jam. So you take some jam and put it onto your plate. Come on. And then you have some cream. In England, you’ll probably find it’s clotted cream, which is hard to find here. Which is a heated cream, so it’s a little bit more weighty and fat content. Pass that over to you. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you. Okay, so you’re not taking the knife and directly putting it on I’ve noticed. Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No. Now sometimes, when we do reception events here, chef makes wonderful scones, we will actually split them and spread them so that people don’t have to work with that. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Because again, when you’re designing food for large groups, you have to have things that are easy to eat, quick and easy to pick up. So then the key is to take a little bit of jam and put it on about a bite-sized piece of the scone. 

Kate Young: 

So not the whole thing? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

No. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It’s so complicated being English. And then you put some cream on the top. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. And we did jam first, like you said. Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Some people will even put butter first, then jam, then cream. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a lot. The cream is insanely delicious. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Good. 

Kate Young: 

And so is the scone. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

With the scone. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, my goodness. Okay, see how I was taking both hands? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’ll see people do that as sometimes … That’s another thing I tell students. When I go around the class at the beginning of the semester, I ask them what their worst habit is. 75% of them say procrastination, which I can’t do anything about. 

Kate Young: 

It sounds like a college student. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And then the next one is fidgeting because they’re always playing with things. Probably from growing up, they were always playing with a phone or a game, or something. So sometimes that has now secured both of my hands and I’m not doing anything silly with them. Whereas if I have one hand free, people start to play with things, or they fiddle, or they play with their hair or their fingernails. 

Kate Young: 

With a job interview, it’s just such a turnoff. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, it’s distracting. So sometimes adding that extra hand just gives your hand something to do. But generally, you would only hold with one and stir in two. Stir quietly. 

Kate Young: 

In October, Anthony received the Special Boilermaker Award, which honors members of the Purdue faculty or staff who have contributed significantly to the improvement of the quality of life or the betterment of the educational experience for Purdue students. Anthony shares what this award means to him. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It was a very, very special moment. It was quite a surprise being told I had it because I was at a meeting in Hovde, and we were leaving the meeting. And Teresa Cadwallader, who is Mung’s executive assistant, said, “Oh, could you just pop in here?” And I thought, “What is this?” So she opened the door and ta-da. So that was a big surprise. And then obviously, going down onto the field to receive it was a very special honor. It was a wonderful honor and obviously my co-recipients, we had a great time. So it was very, very special. 

I don’t know whether there’s a Bingo card of things that if you’re at Purdue this long, you get one of these. And if you get this long, you get one of these. So I was the Reamers, I was in Iron Key, MARTA Board, Hall Master, so my Bingo card’s getting full. But yes, it was a very nice honor, very nice. And I’ve had many, many messages. I’ve had 450 messages on Facebook after it was … Eric Barker, Dean Eric Barker took some really nice pictures, so they were on Facebook so a lot of people responded to that. And then I had people text me who were in the Buchanan Club saying, “Oh, yeah, three of us up here are also a Boilermaker Award recipients in the past and we’re here cheering for you. Thanks for joining our ranks,” if you like. So it was very, very, nice. 

Kate Young: 

I can tell Purdue means a lot to you. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes, it does. 

Kate Young: 

Why have you stayed here this many years? Why? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I sometimes ask myself the same question, I don’t always give myself the same answer. It has worked out really well. As I say, I started out expecting to be in the US for a year and that turned into 34. I do love the variety of the US. Obviously, we’re here in the Midwest and we have our wonderful seasonal changes, which I really do enjoy. I think ti’s nice to still have winter. Having lived in Switzerland and being in the snow for three or four months a year, you miss things like that if you were in a warmer state. So I really do like the seasonal changes. Particularly, I enjoy gardening and things outside, so it’s nice to see and to be able to make changes and not that the landscape is going to be the same day in, day out as if you were in some other states to the west maybe. So it’s nice having that variety. 

The ability to travel relatively easily. I do miss public transport. I do miss European trains. But you get around here, but it is an easy place to move from and to go see different parts of the country and travel. So I think the Midwest … Many people who travel from here after they graduate go and live in metropolitan areas, but then eventually return to the Midwest because they say it’s just a better place to live and to bring up families, and things like that. The people are very warm. It’s a very accepting and very welcoming community, and I think that that’s why I ended up staying at Iowa State is that people probably said, “We’re interested in making you do something different and getting on with the Master’s degree.” 

So that also goes back to one of the things I tell students is that, yes, your degree may be in biomechanical engineering, or whatever it happens, biomedical engineering. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you are going to stay in that field. And if something comes along that says to you, “That sounds interesting, let me try that.” And say at 22, you have nothing to lose. If you don’t like it, great, you can try something else. And you can at that point probably still fit all your belongings into one vehicle, so if you need to travel, you can do it now. Because as life gets more complicated- 

Kate Young: 

You’re tied down more. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… it’s a lot harder to make those changes. And I think when I first took my first job at Blenheim Palace, I didn’t know that that would lead to this. It was a one-off three-week job for the Christmas holidays with the Duke and Duchess, and then, “Would you come back full-time?” Yes, why not? And then everything just transitioned. 

So you can never actually predict what’s going to happen next. So I think I’ve enjoyed the fact that, having worked for four presidents, each one comes with a different background, different sets of needs, different requirements, so that has … In a way, I haven’t really worked here for 24 years, I’ve worked here for 2.5, and I’ve worked here for 10, and I’ve worked here for five, and I’ve worked here for seven with each of the four different presidents. So that I think has kept things fresh. To have stayed in one place, one person, one job, routine might not have been the case. I’m not saying that people have tried to take me away from here. 

Kate Young: 

I can imagine. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Purdue may be known as the cradle of quarterbacks, but it’s also the cradle of presidents in that we’ve had three provosts go on to be wonderful presidents of big schools. Sally Mason, Randy Woodson, and Tim Sands have all made wonderful presidents in their own right and all three have asked me to go with them. 

Kate Young: 

There’s a behind-the-scenes story. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. 

Kate Young: 

What does this Boilermaker community and being part of it mean to you? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I do really like living in Lafayette, West Lafayette. I live downtown and when friends come to visit from England, particularly we’ll walk around downtown or go to a restaurant, people know you, they come up to you, they recognize you, they talk to you. I’ll sit on my porch and people will say hello or will stop and chat on the porch. So it has a very nice feel that you don’t always get in other countries because people are either too busy or they feel that they can’t talk to people because they don’t know them yet or they’re not familiar with them. So there’s a lot to the Midwest and warmth and welcoming feel. 

As you know and I know, when we travel to different states, it’s not always the same. It does feel … You feel like an outsider in some states. So the community itself is wonderful. I’ve made lots and lots of friends, either from guests coming here or from working relationships, and then alumni, and donors and people. Having traveled with Purdue as well, that’s another really good way of establishing a bond, a friendship with people that you may not normally have had a chance to meet. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. With the holiday season in full swing, we couldn’t let Anthony go without asking some burning questions when it comes to etiquette. So for our listeners who may be preparing for holiday events, whether you’re hosting or attending as a guest, Anthony shares his top advice, including avoiding the rather popular Irish exit strategy. Are you guilty of doing this a time or two? I know I am. Here’s Anthony. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

A little more tea? 

Kate Young: 

Yes, actually. It’s delicious. Thank you. So for people hosting events or maybe attending events, what is a small, thoughtful gift that you could give to the host of a dinner party, let’s say? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. The whole notion of giving gifts is changing. Gift giving, certainly in the corporate world, is now almost frowned upon because it’s a difficult gray area. One thing to remember is that the host has asked you there because you they want you there. They didn’t necessarily want you to bring anything. So there was I think, in the past, almost an obligation that people felt, that I have to take a gift, and that’s not the case. If you feel like taking something, that’s fine, the host would appreciate it, but don’t feel that you can’t go empty handed. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

The other thing to think about is particularly if the host is greeting you and you hand them this, then they’ve got to deal with it. So giving then something that they can easily say, “Oh, that’s lovely, thank you,” and put it down, and then it’s out of the way, they don’t have to … So when people bring flowers, it’s very pleasant, it’s very nice, but if they’re not already arranged or in some container, then, “Oh, I’ve got to deal with these now. Let me put them down. They should probably go in water. Oh.” If you’ve got someone, your event coordinator standing right there, yes, you can probably hand off a gift, but it makes it awkward for people. 

So particularly around the holidays, I think a small ornament or a handmade ornament, or there are lots of little arts and crafts shops here in town that sell small gestures, those are nice. Commemorative ornaments are nice. Homemade food if you’re somebody who’s very good at making chocolates or something like that, just a little gesture. If you are going to take flowers, as I say, take them already in a vase or in something that the host doesn’t have to then deal with them immediately, that they can just be placed. Also, people have probably done their own decorating, they’ve probably already got flowers on the table. They’ve probably already got most of that, so unless you know them very well and you’re just taking something that you know will fit in with the theme or the décor, it can be a little bit of a juxtaposition. 

A lot of people take bottles of wine. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, I’ve done that. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Which is fine. 

Kate Young: 

How do you feel about that? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

It’s fine. The expectation is that you take the bottle of wine and it’s really a gift, don’t expect to drink it. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

If you have a particular wine. So if you’re planning a dinner party and you were cooking and I said, “Let me bring the wine,” I would ask you what you’re making and then I would bring a wine that was appropriate. And we would both know ahead of time I would bring the wine in a way that it was ready to be served by you, but you already knew about it. So if I bring a bottle of wine and I expect you to serve it and it doesn’t go with the food that you planned or you’ve already planned your wines, again, that can be a little awkward. So if you bring it just as a gift, perfectly fine, but don’t, as I say, expect to drink it. And I’ve seen some people, awkwardly, if it hasn’t been served, take it away with them at the end. 

Kate Young: 

What? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. “Well, they didn’t drink it, so I’ll take it back.” Oh, all right. Okay. 

Kate Young: 

I think it’s awkward when they open it up and have it at this event. I was like, “Oh, no, that was a gift for you.”? But if they want to open it, I get that. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. And again, I think it requires you as a guest, if we knew each other well enough and I’d been to your house several times. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

I’d say, “Oh, let me bring some of the wine that we had last time.” Or, “I know that you really like this sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand, let me bring some. If you choose to serve it, entirely your choice. But if you don’t choose it, then it’s yours for the rest, you keep it.” 

Kate Young: 

And you do not take it home. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And sometimes host’s gifts, if they’re wrapped, don’t expect that the host is going to unwrap it then. 

Kate Young: 

Oh, okay. That’s a good tip. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So sometimes, if it is a little ornament, just bringing it unadorned so that they can see it immediately so that they don’t have to then unwrap it and then thank you. They can say, “Oh, that’s pretty. That’s lovely. I’ll put it on the tree,” or something like that. 

Kate Young: 

Right, because they have enough going on. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yeah. So you just don’t want to confuse things. And that’s why we have, at wedding and big events, a table for gifts that you can just put them on and a basket for cards if people bring them. There’s no absolute necessity to physically hand it to me. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Then you can retrieve them and then thank people later. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, small talk. Some people hate it, some people are gifted at it. What are some small talk dinner conversation starters? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

All right. So again, part of it is doing your homework. You don’t have to be the NSA, but you can do a little bit of background. The other thing that people don’t do particularly well is actively listen. So while a conversation is going on, you may have said something that didn’t then get developed into a further conversation, but I picked it up. So then when you and I are sitting somewhere I can say, “Didn’t I hear you just say that you were going to the Bahamas for Christmas? Oh, that’ll be nice.” Or, “Did you just come back from the Maldives?” And any time that you can ask people things that make them want to talk- 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… is a good way because it’s a conversation, it’s not me lecturing. It’s you listening and then adding in and back-and-forth. So having actively listened or found out some details, or that you just got a new puppy, or that I saw in the newspaper that you just received the Special Boilermaker Award, or you just became Small Business of the Year. All of those things I have stored that I can bring out and use if I need to. 

We’ve talked a lot about the change of seasons. Fall, “Is fall your favorite season?” It’s giving people an open-ended question allows them to express, and then it should also then lead to further topics of things that we can talk about. Because as I listen, I can hear that you’re someone who loves fall. Have you been to Maine or the East Coast? “Oh, actually, we were planning that next year.” Well, how are you going to do it, by train or are you going on a cruise? 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So it generates itself, but it needs someone to start the ball rolling. And people are afraid to just start a conversation because they don’t know. So it sounds mundane, but the weather is a great way to start. “Did you have trouble getting here? I saw that it was stormy in Colorado. How was your journey?” And people have then the incentive to give more information and make you feel that this is a conversation. And I sometimes equate it to a tennis match. 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That your first topic is the serve and you send it over the net. And you hope that someone on the other side of the net will hit it back, and then you hit it back. And it’s back-and-forth, back-and-forth, and we’re adding to this conversation. 

We’ve all unfortunately been in the position where we start a conversation and then people will not. It’s, “Okay, try again. Let’s go this way. And we’re going to try that, and no, that one didn’t work. All right. Anyone else have anything interesting?” So sometimes it is difficult and some people just don’t want to engage in that. But small talk is really important because small talk leads you to big talk. 

The ability and the students on interviews, when they go, I say you won’t be spending all the time with the interviewer. You will be spending time with assistants, with other departments, other areas. And you have to be nice to all these people and you have to talk them. When you’re transitioning from this office to the HR department, we’re walking, you have to be talking. You can’t just leave it blank. Even though this person may not be the person you’re interviewing, I’m going to ask them afterwards. We’ve all seen Undercover Boss, I tell them that. I say the person that you go in to see who’s sitting behind a desk isn’t necessarily the person that you think it is. 

Kate Young: 

Or being rude to a waiter or receptionist, right? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Well, especially at the CEO level, a lot of times, the dinner interview, the people are looking to see how you treat service. And if you treat them well, there’s a very good chance that you’ll treat employees lower down the totem pole than you well. 

Kate Young: 

Okay, the Irish exit. Are you familiar? The Irish goodbye maybe? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

That’s not really a goodbye, you just disappear? 

Kate Young: 

Yes, you just simply disappear. What is a polite way? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Right. 

Kate Young: 

Maybe the host is busy talking to someone else. Maybe you just want to get out of there as fast as possible. What’s a polite way to leave a party? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

If you got to the stand-up event or a reception-style event where it is a lot of mix and mingle drifting around, and you may have commitments to other things at different times, the key is to try and make sure that your host knew you came. So making not necessarily a beeline for them, but making sure that when you arrive, you see your hosts quickly so that they’re aware that you did come, even if you’re not going to stay very long. Then do a circuit through the room as best you can. And then always try, even if the host is talking to someone else as you have to leave, try and make eye contact. Just something that signals that they are, again, aware of the fact that you have left. Rather than, “I don’t know where she went, I’m not sure. She was here just now.” If you can, even if you have to slip away early, just try and make some contact with the host to say, “This is been wonderful, but I do have to dash. Let’s catch up next week.” 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Or something like that if you can. Or, “Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say great party, thanks for having me. We’ll see you at the theater on Saturday,” or something like that. It makes them feel that it was a good idea to have you at the event even though you couldn’t stay for the full length. 

Kate Young: 

And you appreciated the invite. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You’ve made an impression. So as I say, try and meet them when you first get there, and try and at least acknowledge the fact that you’ve had a good time and you’re heading out now. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. To wrap it up, the biggest dos and don’ts. What’s a top do this to impress people at an event and a top do not do this at an event? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

You shouldn’t necessarily be just out to impress people. You should be doing things well, but not necessarily standing out- 

Kate Young: 

Like showboating? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… like showing off. 

Kate Young: 

Okay. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So keep it subtle, keep it light. I think we do find people who dominate the table. And I do tell people when you’re planning an event, think of the personalities that you’ve got. Because if you’ve got a strong personality and you’re hosting and we’re doing a long table rather than a round table as we’re at today. But if you have a long table and you’ve put somebody with a strong personality halfway down the table, that person will take over and you have no way of controlling that. If you have a strong personality, seat them next to you because you can physically rein them in if you have to because they’re right there. So again, that’s a good way of working out where you’re going to place people and who would be a good conversation group. Do these people have something in common? 

Kate Young: 

Sure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So it does that. Try not to dominate. If you realize that, “I’ve done all the talking,” or nobody’s had a chance to eat, again, try not to do that. Also, good manners can spoil good food. So listening to somebody talk and the food’s there, stop somebody. Don’t just let the food spoil. 

And that also brings up the buffet rule. That if you go to a buffet, it’s very likely that the rest of the people at the table are not immediately behind you in line. So when you get to the table, if there are three of you or more, you can start eating because those three people may not even arrive, or those two seats may be empty or unoccupied and you’ve been sitting there waiting for them to fill and your food is spoiling. So I always encourage people to use the buffet rule, three or more, start. 

Chewing with your mouth open. I don’t need to see your food. Eating noisily. Something it’s overwhelming. All right, yes. These people are automatically getting a no for the next invitation because you’re just not going to have people watch that again. Over-indulging. There may be very nice things offered to you, but you don’t have to necessarily take them all. And one thing I do tell students about events is that because, when you arrive, it’s likely hospitality is going to be offered quite quickly. Your choice of whether to take it then or not. You’re perfectly able to walk away and say, “I’ll be right back. Let me do some introductions.” Because yes, you might be able to hold a plate and a glass with one hand, but if you don’t have to, don’t do it. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

So go around, make some introductions, and then circle back and get your drink. Circle back and get some food. So again, sometimes that is a test to see whether people have the ability to say, “No, I think I’ll wait.” 

Using the buffet as your own private dining space, no. Take some food and move away. You see something on the buffet you don’t like? Don’t put it back. Appetizers are not easy to eat standing up. We in hospitality love to watch people fail, that’s why we designed food like that. Things will crumble. So look at the food and say, “Can I deal with that?” 

Kate Young: 

That’s exactly what I do at weddings. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

Can I eat this? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Can I eat it neatly, cleanly, easily? Yes, go. No, I think I’ll pass. Take two bites. A whole egg roll is offered to you, yes, it would fit in in one go. Should it? No. Again, just dipping. One dip, one dip only. Not turning the carrot stick over and dipping the other end in. Taking things to a plate, to a vessel, rather than just eating them out of the bowl. 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

And sometimes events aren’t set up in the way that makes that easy. That you’ve got to find the plates- 

Kate Young: 

Right. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

… or the plates and the napkins are in the wrong place. And you really want to get a plate, go down, and then at the last minute, pick up a napkin and a piece of silverware because you don’t need that for walking through the buffet. Just again, I think a lot of it is learned, but unfortunately we don’t see the opportunities to learn anymore. I will set a table with a tablecloth and people suddenly, “It’s so formal,” because they’re just not used to seeing tablecloths anymore. 

Sitting down before everyone else arrives, not good. Because then anyone else who arrives at the table, even if they’re on time, they feel like they’re late. So in a restaurant situation, you’re hosting, you’re waiting in the lobby, try and wait for all your guests in the lobby before you go to the table even though the restaurant wants you to sit down straightaway. If I arrive at 12:30, which is when I’m supposed to be there, and you’re already at the table and I’m the last there, I say, “Ooh, am I late?” Because it’s the psychological feeling that I didn’t make the right call. And if somebody does arrive late, get up and greet them and help them to their chair. It makes them, again, feel less self-conscious about being late. 

Kate Young: 

This is been fascinating. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you. Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Is there anything I missed? Is there anything else you want to tell our listeners and viewers? 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Gosh, no. Listen, learn, and copying in school, not a good thing. If somebody does something outside of school that looks good, do exactly the same thing. You can learn a lot by watching people. Oh, and when you split a check evenly, don’t argue. No divisions of, “Well, you had two glasses of wine, oh, plus tax.” 

Kate Young: 

That is so uncomfortable. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Yes. You see people having this wonderful meal, great conversation, and then they’re arguing about $26 the end of it. It’s not very … That’s all I’m going to remember when I walk out, is that you were trying to short me for $2, or was it. 

Kate Young: 

That’s a great tip to end on. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you very much. It’s been wonderful. 

Kate Young: 

Thank you. Oh, it’s been a pleasure. 

Anthony Cawdron: 

Thank you. 

Kate Young: 

I’m sure you all learned at least one tip from Anthony throughout the interview as we head into the holiday season. I know I did. It was a blast revisiting this special episode and celebrating Anthony’s 25 years as a Boilermaker. If you haven’t been to Westwood, or maybe it’s been years since you’ve been there, you can check out our videos from Anthony’s interview on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

And speaking of the holidays, we would be so thankful for a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. All you have to do is find us on one of those platforms and tap “write a review” to share why you enjoy the show. And be sure to hit that five-star rating too, while you’re there. 

This Is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glozbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Ashvini Malshe and Sophie Ritz. And our creative production manager is Dalani Young. Thanks for listening to This Is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, boiler up.

P.J. Thompson: This is Coach PJ Thompson, and you’re listening to, this is Purdue. 

Kate Young: Hi, I’m Kate Young and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University as a Purdue alum and Indiana native. I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators? Who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

P.J. Thompson: My goal when I was a freshman, when I left Purdue as a player, I wanted to leave the jersey in a better place than it was. Now I’m transitioning to this side. I tell the kids the same thing, leave the jersey in a better place. And the cool part is we’re reaching heights that we’ve never reached before. And so when you can continue to leave the jersey in a better place, that’s how you become one of the best programs in the country and I feel like we are that. 

Kate Young: In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to P.J. Thompson, Purdue men’s basketball assisting coach and proud Boilermaker alum. Coach Thompson grew up in Indianapolis and graduated from Purdue in 2018 with an organizational leadership degree. He also played basketball under head coach Matt Painter for the Boilermakers during his time at Purdue. And five years ago he returned to Purdue to join the coaching staff. Since then, he’s had quite an incredible career. We’re talking coaching, Purdue turned NBA players, Jaden Ivey and Zach Edye, being part of Purdue’s first number one national ranking and coaching for the 2024 NCAA national Championship in Arizona. Coach Thompson is diving into leadership in today’s modern world of college sports, the unique culture he’s helped to build within this Purdue basketball program and the upcoming season. After all, he’s coaching the offense for a team that enters the season as one of the leading contenders to win the national title. No pressure of course. He’s genuine, upbeat, and wow, is Purdue basketball lucky to have him. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Coach Thompson. Coach Thompson, thanks for joining us on, this is Purdue and coming to our studio today. 

P.J. Thompson: Yep. Thanks for having me. 

Kate Young: We are so excited. You have had so many accomplishments between when you were a player and now as an assistant coach with the Boiler ball. I want to list off some of your accomplishments to kick us off here. So during your time as a Purdue player, you were a three-year starter, you helped the team win the 2017 Big 10 Championship. Now you’re part of the coaching staff you’ve coached during a national championship. You’ve been here for Purdue’s first number one ranking. You’ve had players like Zach Edey, Braden Smith, you’ve got to coach them. So I guess our question is are you some type of a lucky charm for Purdue basketball? 

P.J. Thompson: I think I’ve been fortunate to … We talk in recruiting, it could be the right school, it could be the right coach, it could be the right system, but it’s the wrong time. I think I’ve been fortunate to be at Purdue at the right time and it’s been cool to see the evolution just because when I was a senior in high school, I think Purdue was last in the Big 10. And so when Purdue offered me the thing that stuck with me, coach Painter came to see me as a freshman. I was 14, 15 years old. And just the honesty and transparency throughout the recruiting process I committed and they had multiple point guards on the roster. I just thought it was the best place for me. And you get here and for us to get the program back to where it was when the Robbie’s of the world were here, us making the tournament was accomplishment going from last in the Big 10 to making the tournament. It’s been pretty cool man. 

Since I’ve been at Purdue, I’ve never not been a part of the NCAA tournament. People coach for 20, 30 years and they might not ever get a chance to participate in it. And so for me, being at Purdue has been awesome experience just because I’ve played or coached in nine or 10 tournaments. And so it’s been a blessing, but it’s a testament to coach Painter and his program. 

Kate Young: Did you ever expect coming in as a coach and part of this staff that you would be as successful as you all have been? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. For sure. I think it starts with the leadership up top. I think people, they’re just destined to win. I think Purdue was great because they were patient. I think a lot of times, and you see in sports, whether it’s the WNBA, NBA, college basketball, people don’t get the opportunity to be somewhere for 20 years. Coach Paint’s seen the highs, he’s seen the lows, but Purdue was patient and they were graceful and gave him an opportunity to learn to get better and that’s what you need. And so Coach Painter being the top, like being the guy, his leadership, so he does things the right way. He always says, “We’re going to win. We’re going to win at the highest level, but we’re not going to lose our soul in the process.” And in a time of college basketball changing and sports changing in general in collegiate sports, you got to stick to your core principles and Coach Paint’s done that and we’ve had great players. You don’t have great teams without great players. And we’ve had a lot of great players come through here to help keep Purdue where it belongs. 

Kate Young: Speaking of the whole landscape of college athletics with name, image, likeness has made a dramatic shift in the NCAA. It’s made a dramatic shift for coaches, players. You as a former player, what have you seen within the past 10 years with how NIL has changed the game? 

P.J. Thompson: Everything. You used to work as hard as you can to become a pro. And when you became a pro, whether it’s in Europe, whether it was in the NBA, that’s when you got paid. Now it’s different. These kids are getting paid in high school. Obviously Indiana, you’re not allowed to make money as a high school athlete, but kids are making money in high school. They’re doing different deals and it’s just different. And so for us, what’s worked at Purdue is keeping the main thing the main thing. You come to Purdue because you want a great education, you come to Purdue because you want to develop as a young man to becoming a man. So you can go and you’re 22, 23 years old and you can meet with Eli Lilly and they’re ready to hire you. And so for us, we’ve done a great job. 

While it’s changing, we’ve still recruited the same way. We don’t go for the most talented kids. We go for what works at Purdue. You got to value education, the family matters, you got to love basketball. But when you have that mix, you can have the success we’ve had. I think we’ve done a great job of still eyeing what works at Purdue. You got to get lucky. Like Zach Edey was 400 something ranked in the country, right? He averaged three points in high school, but he loved basketball. If it was 8:00 P.M. on a Friday night, he was watching film. He was a routine guy. He worked on his game after every practice, before every practice, on his off days. And so those guys, he becomes the two time national player of the year. But at the core, he was always a Purdue guy. And so for us, we just try to look for what we were looking for over the last 10 years, although the landscapes changed quite a bit. 

Kate Young: Speaking of family, and you can tell through social media, everyone’s going to each other’s weddings, everyone’s coming back for the alum games. You and other former players are part of the coaching staff. What do you guys do on and off the court that helps foster that mentality? 

P.J. Thompson: We’re going to Sasha’s wedding. It was cool. It’s going to be like 600 people there, but all the former players that he invited back. It is just different. We had 350 people at Coach Painter’s house during the alumni game. You saw all the fans that came. It’s a special place. And it’s not like that everywhere. And when you’re part of something, no matter how great everything is, you can take it for granted a bit. For us, we try to just stay in the process. It is a special place. You’re never going to agree with everything that goes on, whether you’re at Purdue, whether you’re at another school, whether you’re at a business. But Purdue man, it’s just different. And I think, like I said, it’s a testament to coach Painter and the people. You talk in recruiting with guys and you can’t ever forget it’s a people business. You want to be around great people. And whether it’s in the athletic department, whether it’s outside of the athletic department, Purdue has great people and it’s relationships. When we’ve had two head coaches in 40 something years, the stability. So if you want to go into this field, well it’s probably one phone call away. 

Obviously we’ve had guys that play professional basketball currently in Europe. I did. So we have guys that play in the NBA. But it’s a network and it’s a family and you don’t get the turnout we get from the alumni game if it’s not. I got all American friends. Some of my best friends, man, they were McDonald’s all Americans, they were college all Americans. They played seven, eight years pro and they don’t go back to their school in the summer. They come to Purdue and they want to be around us and I work them out. And it’s cool because Purdue is also welcoming. We’ve had people transfer from Purdue. My little brother transferred, made a mistake after three years and Coach Painter gave him an opportunity to come back and be a grad assistant and he’s going to get his master’s degree from Purdue. And you get your master’s degree from Purdue, you have a relationship with Coach Painter, now you’re in the family, you’re in the system. He’s going to live a great life because of it. And it’s just not like that everywhere. And so we’re extremely grateful just for the people that’s here in the Purdue community. 

Kate Young: You touched on in the past 45 years, coach Painter and Coach Keady have been the only Purdue basketball coaches and so many schools can’t say that. What are some of the biggest lessons that you’ve learned from their coaching styles and leadership? 

P.J. Thompson: It’s different. Coach Painter tells stories about Coach Kaedy and he was demanding, he was a great leader, but he did little things like he’ll bring them up to the office and he would say, “Did you call your mom today? Did you call your mom and say hello?” Little stuff like that. And when you’re 18 years old, you’re like, “Ah man, what’s he talking about?” But when you get older, you understand. You understand the why of things. And so for Coach Painter being somewhere for 20 years, he’s seen how college basketball has evolved from an X and O standpoint, from a recruiting standpoint. It’s ever-changing in the sport. 

And so I think you have to be able to adapt. I think kids are different now than when I played. I think Robbie and those guys, how Coach Paint coached when we played versus them, it was different. And I think when you go through things you just grow, but you got to be able to go through it first and learn, but you got to get the right people. We have the right staff. Coach Brantley played at Purdue, he’s a Purdue guy. Coach Lusk was with Coach Painter before he got to Purdue. Elliot Bloom went to school here. Nick Terruso went to school here. Sasha Stefanovic went to school here. I went to school here. Carson, Isaiah, Coach Terry. He wasn’t in the Purdue family, but Coach Painter is really close with Brad Stevens. And so how Butler used to operate, it’s how we operate. He was comfortable making that decision to bring Terry. When you have the right people in place, I think it’s going to increase your chances of doing special things. And Coach Painter’s done a great job of getting the right people from the staff and I think we’ve done a great job of evaluating. And then with that, Morgan Burke was here as the AD and he helped paint through some hard times. And then Mike Bobinski’s come and I think he’s elevated some things. 

Purdue is an innovative school. Purdue’s always trying to be better. We’re always trying to be the best. And when you have the support around you that wants you to succeed, they make it hard on us not to. But you don’t see the stability we’ve had here. And it is for a reason. Purdue is a special place and coach Painter’s continued. It’s hard to follow a Hall of Fame coach and he’s done that and he’s taken Purdue to a new level and it’s because of how great he is. He’s a Hall of Fame coach himself. I don’t think you necessarily get the love and your flowers when you’re in the midst of doing something, but I think whenever Coach Painter is done, I think people will finally understand what he’s actually been able to accomplish while being the head coach here at Purdue. 

Kate Young: How has he helped you since you started as assistant coach five years ago, develop your leadership skills? How have you evolved as a coach over the past five years? 

P.J. Thompson: He’s just a great dude. Outside of basketball he’s a great guy. You can talk to him about family, you can talk to him about your relationship. You can talk to him about any advice you need because he’s probably been through it himself. It’s not just about winning and losing and trying to get to that next contract. And I think in the business, I’ve been fortunate to see the good part of college basketball. Coaches can be car salesmen. They can manipulate things to get what they want out of the situation. And Coach isn’t about that. Little stuff, man. He buys our staff lunch every day. You don’t got to do that, but he buys our staff lunch every day because he’s a people person. Coach Paint, he’s a basketball guy. His mind is always racing about basketball, but coach just wants to sit and talk. He just wants to be a guy and be around the guys. And to see him as a coach is so different than what you thought as a player because 18 to 22. I haven’t met an 18 to 22-year-old, including myself when I was 18 to 22, we think we know everything and we think these guys are not regular people. 

And so to be on this side with him and see he’s a regular dude that he just loves you and he cares and he’s not going to do it by picking up the phone and texting you all the time. He’s not going to call you all the time, but when you need him, he’s there. I think that’s more important because lip service is easy. I can tell you anything you want to hear, but what are you going to do when I need you? There’s been multiple times seeing him on staff do things for his former players that it’ll never get out, but that’s the type of guy he is. Nor does he want it to get out, but just seeing his leadership outside of basketball, because my respect for him, I always thought when I was a player, he was one of the best to ever do it from a basketball standpoint. And now I see him in a different light. He’s more of a friend now. He’s more of a father figure. And so it’s been cool to see that evolution of coach. 

Kate Young: Absolutely. He’s so well respected. Bringing us back to NIL, we were talking a little bit before this about players staying here and loyalty and how we’ve said 18, 20-year-olds don’t always have the best judgment or they think they know everything. What does the word loyalty mean to you when it comes to basketball and how do you foster it within your players? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. It’s a great question. I think for us it’s doing the research prior. We don’t just bring kids in because they’re good at basketball. We do DISC personality tests. We get to know the kid inside of the kid, not necessarily the out. You can be preventative in bringing kids in by the work you do prior. Are they changing high schools? Are they going to three or four different high schools? Are they going to three to four different AU clubs? If they’re leaving those guys, they’re probably going to leave you when they get to college. And so we try to do the work before and keep getting the right kids because if you got the right kids, we know basketball, we know how to win. I think that’s been proven. It’s just getting the right kids. And throughout the changes of college basketball, our focus in getting the right kids have stayed the same and our kids focus are the same. 

And so when you talk about giving these kids at such a young age, all this money, a lot comes with that. But we’re preventative. We have people from campus police to the campus banks to NBA personnel. We have all these different people come and talk to our guys and be preventative because we don’t want something to happen and it’s on ESPN the wrong way. And now we’re trying to fix it. We want to be preventative. We want to teach them and still educate them because education is still at the forefront. We want kids to come to Purdue because they know that the Purdue education’s powerful and because we always say you’re going to be a former player a lot longer than you’re going to be a player no matter how good you are, like Zach Edey is amazing. He’s ninth pick in the draft. Jaden Ivey is the fifth pick in the draft. God willing, they’re going to live on earth as a former player longer than they are a player. 

And so you got to be able to go back and have something to rely on. And so if you’re going to two to three different colleges and these college coaches are getting a job every three to four years, who’s going to help you? Because at some point in life, everybody needs help. Coach Paint didn’t get that job because he’s great at basketball. He got that job because Coach Keady. I’m not at Purdue now because I’m great at basketball. I’m at Purdue now because of Coach Painter. And that’s just a basketball example. But at some point in life, you’re going to need help. And so when you’re loyal to people, no matter how many points you average, no matter how many assists you get, again, it’s a people business. 

You got to be able to rely on good people to help you. And I think that’s why our guys stay and they’re loyal because at the end of the day, they know they might not agree with everything I call offensively, they might not agree with everything we do in practice from a practice standpoint, but at the end of the day, it comes from a good place. All we want is to help them on and off the court be the best version of themselves. And I think a lot of times when you’re in it, you don’t really get it. But I think as you grow older, you go through different experiences in life. When life gets hard, you remember some of those lessons and so that helps you get through it and helps you move forward. 

Kate Young: Loyalty is of course a two-way street. How do you prove your end of the deal to your players? 

P.J. Thompson: It’s not just proof from what we say. We’ve taken four transfers in five years. Two of them are on this team. And that’s among the lowest in college basketball. We go in the portal out of need. We needed to become better defensively. We needed to become a better rebounding team. And so we go get the second-best rebounder in the portal. We needed to get Oscar Cluff. Dames coming off of a leg injury. He’s young. Trey Kaufman was playing out position, although he had a great year, we needed help with Liam at the four. We knew it was going to be a smaller role. We were honest with him. We were transparent in the recruiting process. But him coming to Purdue, being able to get a degree after his experiences, he’s had at his different stops, he’s still willing to come and be a part, even though it may be a smaller part because he is backing up in All American, he’s still willing to do so because of the transparency. 

And then guys on our current team, like Trey Kaufman was an All American last year. He red shirted when he got here, he got offered from North Carolina, which is a blue blood, of the best historical programs in the country. He was a highly ranked guy, but he just wasn’t ready right away. And so instead of just, ah, that kid’s not ready, let’s go get someone else we developed him. We have a plan for him. He backed up Zach Edey. A lot of kids would’ve left, but he stayed through it and now he had a heck of a year. He has the opportunity to have his jersey be in the rafters. So in 20 years when he comes back to Purdue, his Jersey’s hanging up. But he also has the opportunity to play in the NBA. And I don’t know if he would’ve had that, if he didn’t stay through it. 

Guys like Braden Smith, we’re just fair, we’re fair, we’re honest. We don’t promise people things. it’s easy to remember what you say because you tell the kids the truth. And so Braden’s hearing the same thing that Fletch is hearing. You have opportunity here. The timings right, you got to work and come get it, but the opportunity’s here for you. And so when every kid is getting that message, that’s all you want as a basketball player. As a high school kid coming in, you just want a chance. You want to know what’s going to be fair. I want to know that, okay, you’re paying me the same thing. We’re coming in, but I’m 60 spots ranked lower. Like C.J. Cox started the most games as a freshman and he was the lowest ranked guy. It’s a production business. But you have opportunities like that because we don’t promise people things and it’s all about the work and the fit. I think all those things go into why it’s a two-way street. It’s not just lip service with us. We prove it and we have the backing. We show them and we tell them. 

Kate Young: What are some of these non-negotiables that the team holds firm even in this current landscape with the NIL? What has Coach Painter done to instill that culture within the coaching staff for you all? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah, nothing changes. We get back on the road at 3:00 AM You got class at nine. It’s your job to be in class. It’s your job to be attentive in class, pay attention. It’s your job to get your work done. It doesn’t matter how much money you make, it doesn’t matter that we’re the number one ranked team in the country. You’re here for education first. Coach tells all his recruits this, and I think it’s really cool. I think the parents get it more than the kids, but you got to have two dreams. You got to have a dream through education. You got to have a dream through basketball. Obviously he says no one’s going to be dreaming about biology, right? 

Kate Young: Maybe. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. Some people do. But you got to be able to understand you’re going to be a former player longer than you are a player. And so getting your degree matters. Having those connections and resources outside of the athletic department matters. You’re going to meet people on campus that aren’t athletes that you may be friends with the rest of your life. I think our non-negotiable rules are just doing the right thing, showing up every day, having a positive attitude, going to class, working hard. If you don’t come to Purdue and you don’t work on your game from a basketball standpoint, you’re going to stick out because everyone does. It’s a competitive environment. And when you’re in a competitive environment and things are relatively equal, you got to be able to do the necessary things to put yourself in position to reach your goals. You can’t say you want to be an NBA player, you want to be an all-conference player, you want to help Purdue win, but then you’re the 10th guy that wants to work out with our GAs. Your goals and your dreams has to match your work. And staying out of trouble, just keeping life simple. 

We try to tell that to our guys. When you recruit a lot of the guys, people talk about culture and stuff all the time. We don’t because when you come to Purdue, we’re not going to change for you. You’re probably going to succumb to the environment and the culture that’s already in place because that’s what’s won, that’s what’s developed people, that’s what’s graduated people. That’s what’s allowed Purdue to have arguably the most success the program’s had in a long time. For us we try to stick with that. It’s a cool store. Like Grady, they’re building something special hopefully at Notre Dame. Grady Eifert’s one of my best friends. 

I was on the road, I feel like I was driving in the mountains. I think I was in Utah. And Coach Shrewsbury, he’s a great dude. I look up to him from a basketball standpoint because when I was younger on staff and he was running the offense, and I learned so much from him, and I looked at him in that stratosphere of Paint of the basketball gods that you want to hopefully one day be able to be like. But Grady called me one day and he was like, “Yo, P, how often do you guys play open gym?” And I thought about it. I’m like, “Dude, I have no idea. Our guys play because it’s just what we do.” I don’t have to micromanage Braden Smith. I don’t have to micromanage Antoine West because. One’s a senior, one’s a freshman because they know what to do. It’s in place. It’s in place for you to come to Purdue and succeed. 

And so it was just cool because this is a program that paints half for 20 years. It’s at the mountain top and they’re trying to get there. It was cool for me and it puts things in perspective. I try to look for things to put things in perspective because when you’re in it and you’ve been at the same place for so long, you got to continue to be grateful and you got to continue to understand how special it is. And it’s hard. It’s really, really, really hard in life to not take things for granted. And he said that to me and it registers. It’s like, man, it’s pretty cool. We got it going on. We don’t have to worry about what 90% of college programs are worrying about. 

Kate Young: They’re playing because they want to play. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. Exactly. 

Kate Young: My mom was Grady Eifert’s, kindergarten teacher. Fort Wayne proud. 

P.J. Thompson: Wow. Good luck to your mom. 

Kate Young: When it comes to recruiting though, I know you said you don’t really have to do a lot because you already know if they have these Boilermaker traits for the most part. But are there any specific things when you’re talking to these younger high school kids that you’re specifically looking for that they will fit in with this Boilermaker mentality and culture? 

P.J. Thompson: Little things like how do they communicate, how do they receive coaching? If a coach takes them out, are they shaking hands with their teammates? Are they still engaged on the bench? If they miss five shots in a row, are they going to shoot the six? From a basketball standpoint, I think it’s easy to tell when a kid can shoot and when a kid can’t shoot. I think it’s easy to tell if a kid can be good and pick and roll in our system and if he can’t. And so for us, I think the basketball piece, for me, I think it’s easy because I know my boss, I know what he wants. I know what works at Purdue. I run our offense. I know what we’re looking for from an offensive standpoint. Obviously the pieces have to fit together, but I think it’s more so getting to know the person too. 

Like the Friday night, what are they doing? Or do they get in the gym? Do they text you back? Do they communicate Well? No one’s perfect. You’re going to have to teach them. That’s part of the gig. We got to teach them things too and we got to help them grow in areas. But I think the non-negotiable is just are they doing the right thing? Do you listen to your high school coach? Do you listen to your parents when they come on visits? I don’t think it’s magic from that standpoint. I think the basketball piece is relatively easy. For us it’s getting to know the person. 

Kate Young: Hey listeners, you can use Code THISISPURDUE for 20% off of one item at the official Purdue team store. Gear up for game day with your favorite gold and black accessories and apparel. Check out all of the new items, including the new Brianna Cannon collection at purduteamstore.com. Use code THISISPURDUE, all one word for 20% off one item. With everything that you’ve learned during your time at Purdue, what advice would you have to new coaches, even business leaders in the everyday world about building a strong culture and in an environment where things are constantly changing? 

P.J. Thompson: Just continuing to understand what does your business stand for? What are you looking for? You got to recruit the people. We’re not having 10 different conversations behind coach Painter’s back like, “Oh, we should do things this way. We should do things that way.” Whether we agree or whether we don’t agree, it’s our job to do what’s best for Purdue. And when I was younger on staff, I’ve been fortunate enough to be a J. I was picking up lunch every day. I had a different relationship with the players back then because I was here more than the coaches because as an assistant, you recruit a lot. In the last three or four weeks, I’ve been gone a ton from different states to state. And so you got to check on your guys still like the most important team and it can get lost in recruiting. But the most important team is your current team. You can’t worry about two to three years in the future. We got to worry about this year’s team because we have a special group. 

In sports you’re not going to always get to play on teams like this one. This could be some of the most fun some guys on this team ever has in their career. And I’m not talking about the guy that lowest on the totem pole. This could be Braden Smith’s best year of his life, maybe, right? It could be Trey Kaufman’s best year of his life from a team standpoint. And so we want to have an environment where. I told him in our preseason meeting, be where your feet are. Braden, you want to break the NCAA a all time assist record, but what’s your attitude going to be like if you don’t get 15 assists in the game? 

Fletcher, what’s your attitude going to be like if Omer finishes the game and you don’t and you’re a senior. Like Trey, what’s your attitude going to be like if you don’t score 20 a game? We have a special team, and so our key word that we’ve used is sacrifice. Everyone has to sacrifice. Coach Paint sacrifices every single day and he doesn’t micromanage. He allows everybody to do their job because he brings us here to do so. And I think when you’ve been somewhere for 20 years and you’ve had the experiences he’s had, I want to say it’s easier to do that. But there are coaches that aren’t like that. Because when you finally sit in that seat, I can’t know what it’s like to sit in his seat because I never have. 

Well, we’ve had Coach Lusk, he’s been a former head coach before. And so Coach Painter can relate to him because Coach Lusk is the only one that really knows what it’s like to be in that seat because it is different. And so what I’ve loved about Coach Paint’s leadership is we lost to a 16 seat. I was player of development. I was helping Terry run the offense. My job was to help teach him the offense, and I worked directly with him because of the NCAA rules. I couldn’t even be on the court. And so we lost to a 16 seed. Coach Paint decided to make a change for Purdue, and I think I was 26 years old and I’ve become the offensive coordinator. Purdue. I had the best job in the country, in my opinion as a 26-year-old, we’re number one in the country. I still think as a 29-year-old, I had the best job in the country. As a 29-year-old it was a process to get there. And Coach Paint didn’t give me the offense and he didn’t sit him office every day and shoot a thousand ideas. When we’re in the course of a game, he’s not telling me a thousand things to run. He lets me have my white board and he lets me do what I see. 

And then after we come together, we figure out what went well, we figure out what didn’t and we move on. But as a leader, you can’t micromanage. You got to trust the people you’ve put in position to do their job. And if they’re not doing their job, you got to make changes. And so I would tell for a business leader that’s not a head coach, you have to get the right people. And that’s been the theme, I feel like of this podcast. But Purdue has the right people in place outside of athletics, and I think we have the right people in place in athletics to allow Purdue as a whole to be one of the best programs colleges in the country outside of basketball. 

Kate Young: I love that. Be where your feet are. Soak it in. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. 

Kate Young: While you can, right? 

P.J. Thompson: Exactly. 

Kate Young: Okay, so the upcoming season, there’s a lot of buzz. 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. 

Kate Young: I don’t know if you like talking about that, but is that a ton of pressure too? 

P.J. Thompson: I think pressure comes with it. It’s our job to win. Purdue is a place that’s won. It’s our job to win. And we understand that. I’ve been on talented teams that didn’t make a final four. I thought my team, my senior year was good enough to make a final four. Isaac Haas gets hurt. I think Jaden Ivey’s last year in college we lost to Saint Peters. I think that team should have been a final four team. We didn’t. We’re not going to just snap our fingers and we’re in the NCAA tournament. It’s a process to get there. We have to be great in the summer now we got to be great in the preseason. Now practice have started. We have to prepare. It’s not going to be perfect. We’re not going to win every game we play no matter how bad we want to. It’s our job to put ourselves in positions to have the best March in April possible but it’s no guarantee because we got Oscar Cluff and he’s a great rebounder that doesn’t mean Purdue’s going to be a great rebounder team. We still got to do the job. You still have to actively go get the rebound and you have to do it every possession. 

So it’s not magic because we have a talented team, because we have a lot of guards that can do a lot of different things, and we haven’t had that all the time in the past. That doesn’t always equate to success. You never know. Being where your feet are attacking every day and just getting better, and then you just want to put yourself in the best position. Historically, the number one seeds, they have a better chance to get to the promise lane. And so we want to continue the season to put ourselves in position to have a great ending, but it’s never perfect. I’ve been a part of teams. I’ve seen teams. We lost four seniors that year. I think that team, I was overseas playing professionally that year. I want to say they started six and four ish they were a 10th of a second from going to a final four and nobody thought that team would. And so just because this team’s talented, just because we have seniors and we have young talented players, there’s no guarantee. 

And so for us, just stay in process space. We talk about it in basketball if you go one for 12 over the course of a season, continue to take the shots that you’re going to shoot because you’ve proven to be one of the best shooters in the country, but to stay in process space, you can’t live always in the present. And so we take that from an individual standpoint and a team standpoint, and then hopefully at the end of the year we put ourselves in a good position to accomplish some of our goals. 

Kate Young: What does it mean to you in the team that the final four is in Indianapolis? 

P.J. Thompson: I’m excited. It’s cool. Since I’ve been on staff, we go to the final fours, and so obviously that one year we participated in it and it was unbelievable. It’s going to be pretty cool being in Indianapolis where some of our kids are from and being right up the street for us. But again, if the final four was in Utah, we would have the same goals to go there and win it. And so it just happens it worked out that way. Maybe stuff happens for a reason, I don’t know. But it’ll be pretty cool. I know that if we’re fortunate enough to get there, I know we’re going to have a great deal of support. We felt that last year playing Houston in Indianapolis. So I’m excited. It’s going to be great for the city. I think the city does a great job of hosting events. You saw it was cool after our season, the Pacers going on their run, the Indiana Fever, they’ve had a heck of a year despite a lot of adversity with injuries and stuff. It’s a basketball state. Midwest is a basketball place. Indiana’s arguably the best basketball state in the world. So it’ll be cool for the city and hopefully for some Purdue fans if we can do our job. 

Kate Young: So we have Daniel Jacobson, of course, Braden Smith, Fletcher Loyer, Trey Kaufman-Renn. You talked a little bit about Oscar Cluff, incredible team, people coming back, people transferring. What are you most excited about for this upcoming season? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah. I’m just excited to just get better. We are on such a good team like this. Each person on our roster is going to win us a game at some point Aaron Fine, Sam King, their walk-ons and every single day, Jack Luzt, Slim, every single day, they work their butts off to help Purdue become better, only in hopes that we beat a team by 20 or 30 and they can hopefully get in at the end of the game and play in front of the fans. And so when you’re a part of special teams, you appreciate everybody. Because all the work that they do, it doesn’t get seen. But every single day they make Purdue better. Every single day because they don’t make the money that our guys make. They don’t have articles written about them. They’re not on cool podcasts like this, but they love Purdue and they care about making Purdue better. 

I always talk about my goal when I was a freshman, when I left Purdue as a player, I wanted to leave the jersey in a better place than it was. And now in transition to this side, I tell the kids the same thing. Leave the jersey in a better place. And the cool part is we’re reaching heights that we’ve never reached before. And so when you can continue to leave the jersey in a better place, that’s how you become one of the best programs in the country. And I feel like we are that. Over a course of a whole season, man, it’s going to be different guys. It’s not just going to be Braden, TK, Fletch as the older guys that’s been through it. It’s going to be the freshmen, it’s going to be the sophomores, it’s going to be the juniors. And so Raleighy’s been through adversity with injuries. 

Daniel’s been through adversities with injuries. Guys want to play more minutes, and we have a lot of people. They’re ready because of what they’ve gone through in the past. And so I’m just excited to see our guys man play in front of our fans. I know our fans are itching to watch us play. We’re itching to get out there and play for our fans and for the Purdue faithful. So I’m just excited to get going. You got to stay in the process. Like right now I’m so tired of practice and we just got started, so I want to play somebody else. I’m tired of playing against each other. I want to be on the same team. I’m a team guy. I think the people we have in our organization, like I talked about in our community, I think that’s all we need. I think we have a great deal of support. I think we have really good players. I think we have a great staff. I’m just excited to go to battle with them and experience a season because there’s so many different highs and lows. 

I think when people watched us play against Auburn last year or watch this play against Marquette or watch this play against Texas A&M they’re like Purdue might be in trouble. And so as a coach, we schedule hard to help us try to win a game at the end of the year, and you watch us play against High Point, you watch us play against McNeese State and then you watch us play against Houston and it makes sense. It makes sense why we did what we did to get to that point. During that process though, you got to relax and understand it’s a bigger goal at hand and it’s a process to getting where we want to go. So right now we’re in that where we just got to stay in that moment and you’re not going to win the Big 10 whatever today is. You got to just continue to take steps in the right direction. 

Kate Young: When people look back at this era of Purdue basketball, what do you hope they say about it? 

P.J. Thompson: When it’s all said and done? I just hope Paint gets the respect he deserves to be honest. I’m at Purdue and I want to stay at Purdue because I want Coach Paint to get his recognition he deserves. I’ve said as a player, I thought he was one of the best in the world at what he does. I think being on staff with him, I think he’s one of the best in the world at what he does. I want to do it for him personally because he changed my life and he gave him the opportunity and he didn’t have to and not a lot of people did. And so his belief in me is bigger than words. I don’t need Coach Paint to text me and tell me loves me. He does it with his actions. I want to do it for him, but also want to do it for the players because we’ve had so many players put on a jersey and as a coach, I’m learning every day, and a big part of the gig is recruiting, and I mentioned it before, but the most important team is your current team. 

But also with that, there’s been a lot of people that put on the jersey that in the last 45 years and prior, that deserved this feeling that we have now, but they didn’t get it. They deserved to get paid and they didn’t get it. You want to do it for Coach, and I think that’s at the forefront for me, but I want to do it for the people or guys that chose to come to Purdue. It’s so hard. It’s so many times in recruiting you get told no. But Purdue is a special place again because of the people and the players we’ve gotten. So I want to do it for them because they should feel a part of it too. 

You don’t have that turnout at the alumni game if they don’t. It’s a lot of people that when you look back, they helped us get to this point. We don’t get to this point without the players that came before us. It’s just not possible. There’s been a lot of people that continue to raise the level of Purdue basketball to give these guys this opportunity. And so along with Coach doing it for those guys, because at the end of the day when those guys come back to campus, it’s cool to see the smile on their face and to hear the stories they tell. Like Purdue, you’re four or five, six years, however long you’re here, it’s 60, 70-year-old men that come back, 50-year-old men, 40-year-old men. It seems like they’re most excited about that time in their life. 

So it’s a lot of people, the fans, I think they deserve it. Supporting the team for so long as a fan, it can drive you crazy, the ups and the downs of things. But one thing I don’t think fans understand what puts into it too. There’s not a second of the day that goes by that I don’t think about Purdue basketball, not a second. I have other relationships. I have a girlfriend. I have family that get put on the back burner because of the gig. And I think fans don’t really understand that we’re normal people too, and there’s a lot of people that want Purdue to be successful. But I think the culmination of all those things is what I want to look back and be like did it for them. 

Kate Young: Okay. We’ll wrap it up here coach. You’ve talked a ton about Coach Painter, your respect for him. You’re clearly so passionate about Purdue basketball. Is there a dream and a hope for you to maybe be a head coach one day? 

P.J. Thompson: Yeah, I think that’s the goal for me. I definitely want to be a head coach. I think I work hard to do that. I’m learning. I don’t want to make mistakes. I think people rush into things. You feel like you’re ready. You feel like you’ve gotten enough experience. I’m a big believer that everything happens for a reason. I’m here for a reason. The number one focus that I have right now is making Purdue better, it’s helping this team win. I think my individual goals will play out how they play out. I’m more focused on helping Purdue win and learning and getting better. 

I’m 29. I feel like I’m just getting started. There’s not a day that goes by where I’m not learning, asking questions. Like when Coach Paint talks, he probably thinks I’m crazy because sometimes I don’t want to even respond. I’m just taking everything in and listening and it’s really a one-way conversation, but I’m listening because I look up to him and I love him and I respect everything he’s been through to get to this point. I understand how hard it’s because I’m in it. Yeah, of course, I want to be a head coach one day. That’s obviously the goal. I think most people want to do that. I’m not different than any other assistant coach that wants to be a head coach, but it’s a stepping stone to get there. I’m in no rush to become a head coach. I want to be the best assistant coach for Purdue that I can be. And I think if I can give my best to Purdue, I think that I can help Purdue become better because I feel like I’ve done that for the last 10 years. And I don’t think statistically it’s going to show up as an assistant coach now, that’s not the goal for Brandon Brantley to get all the credit, right. He’s great at what he does. It’s not the goal for myself to get the credit. 

We do what we do to help Purdue become successful. You can’t forget about why you got in the business. I got in the business to become a head coach, but I ultimately got in the business because I’ve been around a lot of great players my whole life. I didn’t get to Purdue and just start being around great players. I’ve been around great players my whole life, and I’ve seen them be lied to. I’ve seen them be manipulated. I’ve seen them not be able to go back to their school. I’ve seen them not have relationships with their head coach, and so I got into the business because I want to help people. I want to help players become better players, but I want to help people become better men because I think the world needs better people at the forefront. You can’t forget about why you do things. That’s the truth. I really want these guys … I don’t want them to look back and be like, “Man, we were in great offense in college.” I want them to look back and be like, they were around great people that cared about them and helped them get through whatever they have coming for them in the future. So it’s a long-winded way of answering your question, but yeah, obviously I want to be a head coach one day. 

Kate Young: This has been an incredible conversation. Is there anything else you want to tell the Purdue basketball faithful all of our Boilermaker community before we end the interview today? 

P.J. Thompson: Just, thank you. Thank you. It’s not magic. People showing up and having 89 straight sellouts, like I’ve mentioned. I feel like I’ve said it a thousand times, but Purdue people are really great people. They fill up the stands, they support our team. We’re very thankful for that. There’s not a lot of people that can run out to a sold out arena every time they step on the court, whether they’re playing an exhibition game or whether they’re playing for a Big 10 Championship. And so for us, man, we’re just grateful and thankful of the support. You don’t take it for granted going to a restaurant and people just wanting to shake your hand or take a picture or just say hello to you. That doesn’t ever get boring for me. I’ll never tell somebody no, because it’s not like that everywhere. And so these people invest in us just as much as we invest in the game. 

I’m just thankful for the support of the Purdue community. It’s continued to reach levels that are unimaginable. I was playing in Europe. I was in Denmark. It’s a small country. It’s a very average basketball league, and I’m warming up, and I see … I had it on my Instagram for a while. But I see a dad and two kids in Purdue gear. And I’m like, “What in the heck is going on?” And the game was played, and the first thing, I couldn’t even shake the opponent’s hands and the coach’s hands. I just went up to them and I’m just like, “Wow. What are you guys doing here?” And they were there for me. I’m in Denmark, man. So that stuff you can’t take for granted. I’ve been to China to play basketball. I’ve been to Taipei and to see Purdue Jerseys and to see Purdue fans in different parts of the world, man, that’s unheard of. Purdue is just different. And you don’t really understand it until you get to experience it. And when you try to tell people that, it sounds like you’re a car salesman like every other coach in America, but it’s really not. Purdue is special because of the people. And so I would just say thank you. 

Kate Young: That gives me goosebumps. That’s incredible. Well, we can’t thank you enough for your time, coach, and best of luck this season. 

P.J. Thompson: Thank you. 

Kate Young: Wow. Our whole team loved getting to know P.J. And as I said earlier, Purdue Athletics is incredibly lucky to have a leader like him. If you want to watch more videos featuring P.J. in our Purdue Brand Studio podcast studio, you can head over to our podcast, YouTube channel youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with Jon Garcia and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast, YouTube Promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production manager is Dalani Young. 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/thisispurdue. And as always, boiler up.

Allie Gabriel: 

This is Allie Gabriel, and you’re listening to, this is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you are listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking who are the next game changers, difference makers, ceiling breakers, innovators, who are these Boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty, and alumni, taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. Working 

Allie Gabriel: 

Well to me means thriving at work and at home because I truly believe you cannot be well if you are suffering at work or suffering at home because these worlds are not as separate as we want them to be. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we are talking to Allie Gabriel, the Thomas J. Howitt Chair in Management in the Mitch Daniels School of Business and Faculty Director of Purdue University’s Center for Working Well. Allie is an award-winning advocate for mental health and well-being in the workplace within Purdue’s Daniels School of Business. And she leads timely research efforts to understand how employees can thrive at work both in person and virtually. As part of this, she leads the Center for Working Well, which is at the forefront of various challenges facing modern workforces. Allie’s research and findings have been featured globally in publications like the Harvard Business Review and on outlets like CNBC and Forbes, and she recently added another accolade to her impressive resume when she was named a fellow of the American Psychological Association in recognition of her contributions in the field of psychology this summer. 

Today we’re diving into so much with Allie. We’re talking about managing stress and burnout, ways you can improve your work-life balance and emotional regulation, tips on becoming a better workplace leader, how to support working parents, and a phenomenon called Zoom fatigue. That’s right, Allie’s research on this shows there’s a reason behind why remote workers are exhausted after being on back-to-back on-camera meetings daily. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Allie. 

We are so excited to have you. Allie, welcome to This is Purdue. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Thank you for having me. 

Kate Young: 

We’re excited to get into all the things, work well-being mental health. We’re thrilled to dive into your impactful work here. So let’s start at the beginning. What would you say the state of mental health is right now in today’s world? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, that’s a big question to start with because I feel like everybody wants this magic bullet of an answer of, “You just need to do this one thing and it’s all going to be better.” So, a couple of things right away. I think the state of mental health and well-being is just in a rough spot. We are inundated with all sorts of stressors, whether it’s stress at work, stress at home, the news coverage is stressful. We’re just kind of inundated all of the time with information that might feel personally relevant, personally impactful. And the reality is our brains are not programmed to handle that much information. You might have that feeling of information overload where you’re like, “Wow, I’m just processing a lot.” And so I think right now there’s just so much uncertainty. There’s a lot of information coming at people and folks are struggling, and I think what they’re struggling with is how to turn it off, how to step away from work, how to prioritize recovery, how to not feel guilty about prioritizing recovery. 

And so when I am thinking about this for myself or talking to people, a lot of folks are saying, “It feels like I am just going, going, going, going, going, and I’m looking for an off ramp and I don’t know how to find it.” And I think people want this magical answer of, what one of the terms I actually like the least is work-life balance. I think that sets people up for failure of thinking it’s work and whatever your non-work life is, and they’re just going to be equal in this total equilibrium state. And that’s just not how it works. Things are off kilter all the time. And so I like to tell people, “Okay, let’s not think about balance. Let’s think about the things that you value and how we can weight those depending on different seasons that we’re in.” Some seasons, work can be really important. You can sync to that. Some seasons your life, like a non-work life is going to be really important. Let’s sync into that. Sometimes it’s your community, whatever that is for you. 

So, yeah, I just think there’s a lot going on right now. I think people are craving balance. They want it and it’s just hard because it is a constant moving target. It’s a constant work in progress. 

Kate Young: 

A lot I think is there are good days and bad days, so when you have a really bad day, you at least for me, I can wake up and reset again at least. And so I liked how you said you’re way out, what’s important to you, but also knowing that there’s going to be rougher days than others, right? 

Allie Gabriel: 

There are. And our brains play a lot of tricks on us and our brains are wired to remember the bad stuff. So if you think about the day you had yesterday and I asked you, “Think about something that was really salient that happened to you,” the odds are pretty high that you’d be like, “Well, it was going pretty good, but this really stressful thing happened. I had this interaction, I had this email I didn’t like.” And that might overweight the plethora of good things that happened, that you had a great coffee date, that you had a great phone call, you had an outreach that you were really excited about, you had a great yoga class. So our brain, oh, going gym, I’m and ruminating on the negative things. And so we really need to make a concerted effort to rewire that and to say, “No, actually on a given day, things are pretty good sometimes,” and let’s think about that and reset off of that versus just ruminating and thinking about the most stressful things that are happening to us. 

Kate Young: 

So what are some of the common signs of burnout? How do you identify it and kind of course correct and pivot from there? 

Allie Gabriel: 

So the running joke in our field is that we tend to study the things that we’re not very good at. So I study things like burnout and well-being and recovery because this is something that I’ve struggled with too over the years. And when it comes to noticing burnout, I think it creeps in very gradually. And if we don’t notice it, it can really spiral out of control. So sometimes it’s just feeling for a lot of people, it just starts feeling really exhausted. Like, “I feel mentally fatigued. I feel like I’m having a really hard time focusing. I used to be able to concentrate and really immerse myself in my work, and now my brain feels unfocused. It feels distracted. I’m starting to feel really disconnected from things I really liked doing before I don’t feel as identified.” And all of these little signs start to give you cues, okay, something is wrong. 

And it starts as just daily emotional exhaustion. It starts as daily disconnect from the things that we used to care about. And over time that keeps compounding. So if you don’t go ahead and realize like, “Hey, I’ve got to take a step back. Or your body can also physiologically respond to this, you get headaches, you get eye strain. If for me personally, I know I’m starting to get really burned out and stressed when I get this knot in my shoulder, it’s always on my left side. And it’s like this telltale sign like, “Hey, you’re going way too hard. You’re carrying tension, you’re carrying stress. You’ve got to start letting it go.” And so I think for a long time there was this sense that burnout was this badge of honor. I call it the suffering Olympics. We all for a long time, were like, “Oh, we should get a gold medal in suffering. Are you burned out? I’m more burned out than you.” 

And this used to be how we all talked about it, and now there’s more of an awareness of, “Wait a second, burnout is a problem. It’s going to affect every aspect of how your body functions, how your mind functions. And so looking for those little cues of, “Hey, I’m not really focused anymore, having a hard time concentrating. I feel really mentally fatigued. I don’t feel sharp.” Those are cues that, hey, burnout is starting to creep in and we need to put a stop to it as much as possible and find the source, figure out where it is. It could be the type of project you’re working on, it could be your whole job. That’s a rough day if it’s your whole job, because then we have to have a bigger conversation of how you fix that. It could be a particular person that you’re having a difficult time interacting with and maybe you need to recalibrate a relationship. But I just think even from a young age, we’re just kind of programmed to not pay attention to these things or to push through, keep pushing, keep pushing, and eventually it’ll go away and it just kind of compounds to a point where it gets pretty problematic. 

Kate Young: 

Allie dives into some real life examples and practical tips from her research on how to address burnout head on. 

Allie Gabriel: 

If it’s your boss, for instance, or a coworker you’re closely intertwined with, you can’t just go to your boss and be like, “Hey, you’re burning me out. Can you stop?” We need to rethink this. And we have had people in our research, for instance, say like, “Hey, I did realize it was my boss or it was this project team and that was my cue that I needed to find a new job. That was actually a point where I realized I needed to choose a career, a profession that really suited me and my well-being.” That is a really extreme example. It’s costly. That is finding a job. I’ve done it a couple of times. It’s exhausting, it’s stressful. So that’s a really big correction. But I think there are ways that you can then put boundaries around relationships to try to say, “Okay, these interactions may be stressful. So what can I do before the interaction is about to begin? I’m going to take five minutes and really ground myself. Afterwards, I’m going to go for a walk.” 

I joke that after really stressful meetings or really draining moments, I’ll take an emotional lap is what I call it. And I quite literally will go put my headphones on, take a walk out on our beautiful campus and just really recalibrate and reset. So if you know you’re about to walk into one of those interactions, building time for recovery and wellbeing around that is really important. You can also think about reframing it, saying, “Hey, not my favorite interaction I’m about to go through.” Or, “Hey, I’m about to be with a really, really tricky coworker. They might be going through a hard time too.” 

So maybe they’re being really tough on me and I’m struggling with that. Or maybe we just don’t see eye to eye. That’s okay. It’s not my job to necessarily be best friends and get along with everybody, but give somebody a little bit of grace realizing like, Hey, you don’t really know what they’re going through. They could be going through a lot on their own that could be feeding into some of the problematic behaviors, your experiences you’re having. And so I think recognizing too, just some of the humanness of other people sometimes can help if you are experiencing a lot of burnout. 

Kate Young: 

Chances are you’ve experienced those seasons in your lives where personal burnout is impacting your professional career. Allie shares more about trying to achieve success on your own terms when it comes to our personal and professional lives. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Really think about what success means to you in both domains and realize that you don’t have to strive to do everything at once. So I think that’s something I struggle with. In my research, I speak to a lot of working mothers who are high achieving amazing women, and they will just talk about being totally humbled by motherhood and the fact that they have had to recalibrate expectations and realize, “Okay, doing it all is setting me up to burn out, so I want to do it smarter. I want to think about what does it mean to be successful at work right now. That means showing up as my best self, putting in a lot of effort, building good relationships and clocking out, and then I get to go home. And what does it mean to be successful at home? It means being at the dinner table with everybody. It means making it to swim practice. Today, it means I’m making it to gymnastics for my five-year-old,” right? 

And so I think really taking some time, and I’ve done this a few times where I say, what is it that I’m looking for right now and what are the goals I have and how can I stagger them in a way that it feels like I’m not missing out on something? Really what happens is it feels like if we prioritize a goal at home with family and with friends with your community, that it has to take away from a goal at work. And I don’t think it does, but what it might mean is just realizing, “Hey, this is not the time for this big community role that I really, really want because I’ve got this exciting thing going on at work, so let me see where that takes me,” and that will take you somewhere. And then you get the opportunity to say, “Okay, now I want to pivot and I want to think about this goal over here.” So rather than thinking, “I just got to do it all at once,” because that’s also the recipe for burning out. Because then you’re never going to stop. Then that means you just have no off. There’s no off ramp to anything, and that’s a pretty exhausting place to be. 

Kate Young: 

I think we all after the pandemic are familiar with Zoom, unfortunately, or fortunately. 

Allie Gabriel: 

We all thought it was going to be gone by now. There was a funny moment where in tweet we’re like, “This is just temporary.” 

Kate Young: 

“It’s a blip.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s not. 

Kate Young: 

A lot of podcasts are recorded on Zoom still. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yes. 

Kate Young: 

But your research identified a phenomenon called Zoom fatigue. Tell us more about that. What does it mean for people and for organizations? 

Allie Gabriel: 

This is a project I never thought I would do because one, I didn’t think there’d be a pandemic and wouldn’t have to do it, but I was coming off of my maternity leave with my first kiddo, like a true pandemic baby, and one of my really close colleagues and friends in the field, Kristin Shockley, who’s at Auburn University, reached out to me and was like, so I’ve been thinking about studying Zoom fatigue. People just seem really exhausted being on camera all the time. And I was like, “Sure.” One of my favorite people to work with. So I was like, of course. Let’s see what we have here. And we had a company who was largely a remote workforce already before COVID. They allowed us to come in and study their employees for a month and manipulate who was taking all of their video calls on camera and who was taking them off of camera. Because what Zoom fatigue is, is that feeling of exhaustion, about having to essentially turn your camera on and be present and ready to engage in a video meeting. 

And there’s lots of components that might go into that. You are trying to get your space ready. A lot of us didn’t have at the beginning of the pandemic curated home offices that were beautiful and lovely. It could be physically getting ready, feeling like you’re put together enough to be on camera. It could be keeping your pets or your kids. There was that classic news episode- 

Kate Young: 

Yes, yes. When the baby bust in. 

Allie Gabriel: 

… of the guy who the baby bust in, and the poor mother’s like in the back, like, “Oh my goodness!” So Zoom fatigue is kind of the mental load of being on camera and having to deal with all those things. What we found with this set of employees was that the days that they were on camera, they reported feeling more fatigued on a day-to-day basis, and that then contributed to other problems, right? Because what’s the reason why people want cameras on? Because they want to know you’re paying attention. But what we found is when people felt that Zoom fatigue, they reported being less engaged that day, they also were less inclined to really be proactive and speak up. We found these effects were more pronounced for women. And if you think about when we were studying this, it was when there was still a lot of daycare closures and school closures, and so there are pressures associated with that, with caregiving roles. It was also more stressful for newcomers. Imagine starting at a new company during COVID and you’re on a meeting and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’m on a Zoom right now with the CEO, with the top management team, with my boss. What is this jargon? Do they think I look professional? Does it look like I am talking in a dorm room?” All these concerns that you could have. 

And I will say when we did the Zoom fatigue research and then we started talking about it, I was like, “Yeah, this is just a couple year thing.” But no, people are still like, “No, it’s exhausting. Being on camera is exhausting.” The other thing that contributes to it too is you’re so aware when you’re on camera, you are so aware. You see yourself and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, is that my face?” 

Kate Young: 

Totally. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Like, “Is that my face?” 

Kate Young: 

“Is that what I really look like?” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“Is that what I look like when I talk,” because right now you and I are talking, we’re probably not thinking about as much what we look like or how we’re presenting ourselves, but on Zoom, you’re very aware of that. 

Kate Young: 

You’re watching yourself. 

Allie Gabriel: 

You are the number of times I’m distracted just watching myself. 

Kate Young: 

And that sounds vain, but I mean, who hasn’t felt that? 

Allie Gabriel: 

No, you’re just so hyper aware of it, and that’s distracting, right? Because that’s just not how we naturally want to interact with other people, so that was our Zoom fatigue work, and it’s still being talked about. We’re still working with companies and organizations who are like, “Yeah, we’re still struggling with this problem with our employees.” 

Kate Young: 

And has it resulted in, “Hey, you can have your camera off?” I know something that we were like, “Let’s stop with the lunchtime stuff. People are trying to eat lunch.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

Oh yeah, that’s the worst. 

Kate Young: 

And nobody wants to eat on camera. 

Allie Gabriel: 

And some people view that as rude when you eat on camera. We have some follow-up work we’ve been doing, and we asked people, what does it mean to be rude or disrespectful on a virtual call? And there were some typical things you would think like being late time waste, not managing time, holding people too long, but another big one was appearance, showing up, scattered and not like you were put together or ready for the call. And then eating. People were like, “I think it’s really rude and people are eating.” 

Kate Young: 

If you have 10 meetings in a row, you have to eat. 

Allie Gabriel: 

And that’s the problem. I think when we started relying on Zoom, all of a sudden at some point we all decided we don’t need breaks anymore. We’re like, “You know what I can do is I can have a meeting at 10:00, 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, back, to back, to back, to back, and this is fine because I’m home.” 

Kate Young: 

“I’m not commuting, I’m not…” 

Allie Gabriel: 

Right. “I’m not commuting. I’m secretly in my sweatpants. I can do whatever I want,” but going back to where we started, that also is leading to burnout, because we’re not taking care of ourselves anymore. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely. That’s so interesting. What do you think organizations and leaders can do to better help their employees thrive at work, whether it’s in person or remote work? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Have intentional conversations of what it means to be at work, which sounds so obvious, but I don’t think we do that. I don’t think we have very intentional conversations when we all get together for a meeting to say, “Okay, what’s the tone of the meeting today? What do we want to get out of this? What do we want to do today? If virtual, what norms do we want to set around being on camera or not being on camera? Do we all want to call it and just get on the phone and all go for a walk? “That’s been my new favorite pivot, by the way, is rather than sitting on Zoom, I’ll send notes to people and be like, “Why don’t we actually just call each other-” 

Kate Young: 

Walk and talk? I love it. 

Allie Gabriel: 

“… and I get back on the phone and get outside and walk and actually get some movement in.” I think having some intentionality behind meetings, behind gathering behind what is in person, what can be virtual or hybrid, and really thinking about what it means to be at work. What do we want the workday to feel like? That would be really nice if everybody did that because instead what tends to happen is we all show up to work and we just start. It’s very rare that you actually have a moment of collection where you’re like, “Hey, everybody, what’s the vibe today?” We all try to get out of this. We’re all here. What are our collective goals? What do we want to work on? How do we want today to feel? How do we want to view breaks and our well-being? We don’t do that, and that’s a quick fix that doesn’t cost anything. It costs a little bit of time, but I think it can have a really profound impact then on how people experience their time at work and make it feel more in tuned with how they feel and how the collective’s feeling. 

Kate Young: 

I think even I’ll catch myself typing a message to someone first thing in the morning, and then I’m like, “Whoa, whoa. First of all, good morning.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“Hi, who are you?” 

Kate Young: 

Just right out the gate and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, Kate.” No. If you were in person, you would be like, “Hey, what’s up? Good morning. Yeah, nice to see you.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

Those are the small talk pleasantries. 

Kate Young: 

That we’re missing with the virtual and remote work? I think so, yeah. Oh, there’s so many things. We could talk for hours. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, that’s fine. We can do that. 

Kate Young: 

Yeah. Okay, so we’ve covered topics that you’ve experienced firsthand. You had your first daughter, your baby in March of 2020, literally right before the world kind of shut down. And how did that experience influence your path today? Yeah, yeah. 

Allie Gabriel: 

So not only was she a pandemic baby, so she was born weekly on March 10th, 2020. So literally we walked into the hospital in one world and we walked out in a different one. And when you’re pregnant, and I had a pretty tough pregnancy physically at the end, got the flu, was on bed rest, the whole thing. So we weren’t paying as much attention. We knew, for instance, that COVID was a thing, but we were not paying attention to the reality that was setting in, because you’re just, “Oh my gosh, I’m about to have a small human for the first time.” What are we going to do? And I have the flu and we need to make sure I’m healthy, and so on. So we just went in blind. And so we were driving home and we put on the news and we’re listening and we’re like, “Okay.” And it just immediately was in lockdown, which was incredibly isolating. 

I think there’s already lots of challenges being a new parent or just being a parent, having a baby in general. You want that village that’s so hard to curate on a good day, and we just immediately found ourselves completely locked down with this little newborn baby, precious, precious, newborn baby who’s now five and thriving and going to kindergarten, which is so hard to believe. But at the time, it was really isolating. It was really, really lonely. We were lucky that we had some support from my parents and a little pandemic bubble, so to speak, but there’s no play dates, there’s no transitioning back to work and feeling like you can reclaim part of yourself, because at least you get to dress like a real person again, right? Yeah. 

You get to feel like you’re using a different part of your brain, and truly it was not a good place for me. I had really, really struggled with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety and just found myself asking a lot of pretty existential questions about what are we doing, what did we do? And where that ended up was me feeling really passionate about helping other, I was already passionate about helping other working moms because I feel like all parents obviously are doing a lot, but I really believe working moms are doing the most in terms of just the physicality of pregnancy and childbirth and the recovery and then the struggle to reenter the workforce and feel like yourself again. But then going through this experience, I was like, “Okay, if I’m suffering and I feel pretty privileged that we have financial stability and some support, what is going on for other people?” 

And that really was a catalyst to asking bigger questions about how can we support people when they’re coming back to work? How can we better support women who might be going through postpartum depression? Because that diagnosis happens when people are on parental leave usually. It’s usually in the first two to 12 weeks that you get diagnosed. It could be a year. And so if you think about where that intersects with a parental leave, it’s smack in the middle. So you’re not only had this crazy life event because childbirth is crazy, having just started again five months ago, it’s crazy. But you go through that and then you layer on this really difficult diagnosis and now you have to come back to work and pretend like you’re okay and that you’re not fundamentally changed. And so it really just showed me how much work we still have to do, and I feel really, really lucky that I get to spend time asking those questions and trying to understand those experiences. 

Kate Young: 

So based on that, what do you think organizations can do to better support the success of working parents who are coming back from parental leave? 

Allie Gabriel: 

I will say, so we just had our second baby five months ago. 

Kate Young: 

Congrats. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah. So you’re one of the first humans I’ve seen. 

Kate Young: 

I hope it’s a positive experience. 

Allie Gabriel: 

This is a positive experience. I am like, “Oh, this is…” I see lights and beautiful things here. No, I had it five months ago, and it’s been as hard as my first experience was. That’s how blissful and wonderful the second time around has been. And part of that of course is it’s a different time, but I think we were very lucky here to have a lot of proactivity in how people approached me going out on leave. And I think that is the best thing organizations can do. So there tends to be a lot of reactivity around working moms like, “Okay, there’s taboo around disclosing when a pregnancy is happening.” Or women may feel that there is, right? That you can’t share early. Candidly, I had to tell somebody here at Purdue last summer when I was I think five weeks along, which was risky, but I was thinking ahead about teaching. I was like, “Hey, I love my job. I don’t want to teach 38 weeks pregnant, so can we think about how this is going to work,” right? Or people don’t want to, maybe they don’t say it at all. 

Kate Young: 

Exactly. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Well, and going back to Zoom, there were some women who had full pregnancies during COVID and could hide it because of how Zoom is set up. And so I think because of a bunch of factors, there’s a lot of reactivity to it, that people react and you’re like, “oh, okay, you’re pregnant. Okay, nobody’s done that here in a while-” 

Kate Young: 

“So what do we do?” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“Let’s figure out how this works. And I think you get some leave. I don’t know if it’s paid,” and there’s just not clear support structures, versus having more proactivity, letting people know ahead of time, “Hey, here’s some policies we have. Here’s some things in place. So if this is something that happens in your life, we are ready and here’s what we can offer you.” 

Kate Young: 

“And we support you.” 

Allie Gabriel: 

“We support you. Here’s what we can offer you.” Having a coalition of other folks who have done this where maybe your a boss and you yourself have not used this benefits, you’re like, “I actually don’t know. However, we have a working moms group here or just a parent group and let’s get you over to those folks and they can tell you about their experiences on leave,” and that’s kind of what happened here is I had a lot of support and then they connected me to other people who either helped write the leave policies or had used the leave policies. 

And there was just a lot of creativity and proactivity of saying, “Okay, let’s think really creatively about your teaching. Let’s think about how this is going to look for advising students. Let’s think about what your next year will look like.” And I love that. And again, think that’s an easy thing organizations can do. The other part is to really think about how you celebrate people when they come back to work. So I think it’s twofold. One is celebrating that they’re back to work, that they were not on vacation. We have interviewed so many women who are like, “I’m so tired of people telling me to enjoy my vacation. It’s maternity leave.” 

Kate Young: 

Not vacation. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, not vacation. Lovely time, but totally different. But acknowledging that somebody just came back and that you’ve missed their contributions. So what happens sometimes is somebody comes back and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, thank goodness you’re back because it has been so chaotic since you left. We have had a cover for you. Have fun in your inbox because we have just blown it up.” 

And imagine that experience versus someone being like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so glad you’re back. Let’s take the next week and let’s just gradually catch you up to speed and you just spend the next week control-alt-deleting your inbox, and let’s start over and really welcome you back, ease you in. Why don’t you sit in meetings to hear what we’ve been doing?” And then the other part of it is like, “Hey, let’s also acknowledge that you’re now a mom and can you show me your baby pictures? How are you feeling?” How are feeling right now? And just asking again, these humanizing questions I think is really important for moms to feel like they’re being seen, both as a valued member of the organization and just a valued person who’s had this incredible thing happen to them. 

Kate Young: 

I love that. And it’s thoughtful and it’s… 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s thoughtful. 

Kate Young: 

And it’s humanizing, like you said. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, I love my department here with organizational behavior and human resources at the Daniels school. They’re incredible. There was a meal train, some colleagues showing up being like, “You don’t have to see me.” And I was like, beautiful because I’m not fit for consumption, so no thank you. And they’re like, “You don’t need to even answer the door, but on your doorstep is a chicken pot pie and a container of fruit.” Or, “Hey, I dropped a Starbucks at your doorstep. We’re thinking of you.” And just these little touch points that were like, “Okay, people see that I’ve gone through this and they’re valuing that. And that’s really lovely and I think speaks to this place as a whole. It’s just a good community.” 

Kate Young: 

Yes. And speaking of Daniels school, you came two years ago. You were part of Purdue’s first wave of Movable Dream hires. So what were your key experiences that led you to become a Boilermaker? 

Allie Gabriel: 

We’ve just been so happy to be here. So my educational background, so I’m a product of the Big 10 in the Midwest is how I like to view it. So I did my undergraduate degree at Penn State. So I love the Boilermakers. I do love the Nittany Lions too. 

Kate Young: 

That’s okay. That’s okay. 

Allie Gabriel: 

So did my undergrad at Penn State and just fell in love with I think Big 10 campuses are special and have just something about them and the students and the faculty that work there in the communities. So that was my first college experience, and I just immediately fell in love with that. I then went on to do my PhD in organizational psychology at University of Akron in Ohio, not too far from here. And that’s where I met my husband. He’s from that area as well. And then we kind of did this national tour. 

So I spent a couple years in Richmond, Virginia at Virginia Commonwealth University, and then we spent eight really incredible years out in the desert in Tucson, Arizona at the University of Arizona. And it was great. I grew so much. We had so much fun. Winter was great. Summer, not so much. Winter was great. And I professionally always pictured myself at a big, Big 10 campus. So we kind of ended up having this dual goal of, “Hey, we think we want to get back to the Midwest and we think we want to get back to the Big 10.” And then we came here and I was like, “Oh, this is the…” You ever have that feeling when you step into a place and you’re like, “Oh, I think I’m supposed to be here?” And I had that feeling when I was a high school senior touring college campuses, and I stepped on my foot on Penn State’s campus. 

I had that feeling of like, “Okay, I’m supposed to be here.” And my husband came with me for the interview and we stepped under the arch right outside the student union and somebody took our picture and I just looked at him. I was like, “Oh, I think I’m supposed to be here.” And it has just been so great. It’s fun being somewhere that’s growing and just reinventing themselves, kind of staying rooted in tradition, but also reinventing themselves. I feel like that really exemplifies what Purdue is, and it’s been so fun trying to find my little niche of how I can contribute to that in a meaningful way. 

Kate Young: 

What factors put Purdue and the Daniels School at the forefront of modern workforces and that employee wellness and well-being out in the workplace? 

Allie Gabriel: 

We really have, I think, an embarrassment of riches here in terms of the people that are asking questions that really translate into what people are going through at work and in their lives. So when I was also thinking about places that I would be happy, different schools take different approaches to building. If you think about a department, it’s like a portfolio. Some people take a real diversification approach where they want every faculty member to do something pretty different. So you can have a lot of coverage. And I think there’s strengths to doing that. A different approach though is to say, “Hey, what’s our core values? Who do we see ourselves as?” And we’re going to start to build around that. And so what was already happening before I came here is if you were interested in well-being, work-family issues, work-non-work recovery, leisure, meaningfulness at work, relationships, it’s Purdue. 

And so for me, I always viewed Purdue that way, and that’s how I view my own research. And so the thought of getting to join what was already happening was really, really exciting. I also really appreciated the push that was happening here and is still happening of an interdisciplinary connectedness, so to speak, that the Daniels school was not its own little island that just happens to be at Purdue, but rather there was a push to make sure it’s connected to engineering, to the sciences, just all over campus, that there’s a real value in building relationships. It’s quite literally baked into being a Boilermaker here, that there is an emphasis on well-being and just seeing how serious that was taken and that it was such a core part of who people are here and what the place is was amazing to me. I loved it because a lot of people view well-being or did for a long time as this ancillary thing, like, “No, no, no, we’re just here to perform.” And your well-being is, “You go take a nap on your own time. You go do yoga on your own time and get it together.” And now it’s like, “No, no, no. We actually could build workplaces and we could be the example. We could be the example here of what this could look like to really thrive at work.” 

Kate Young: 

As the Faculty Director of the Center for Working Well, what motivated you to research broader issues facing employees and organizations in the workplaces? Was it your personal experiences? Have you always been interested in that type of stuff since childhood? 

Allie Gabriel: 

So I’ve just always been fascinated by people, how our experiences changed so dramatically from one day to the next or even within the same day. My day to day is already a bit like a roller coaster, just up and down. I think that’s so fascinating, and trying to figure out what’s contributing to that. And part of being trained as an organizational psychologist is we care about what we call the science practice gap. So we care about doing really rigorous scholarship and science and then translating it out to practice. So making sure what we do gets into the hands of people who can actually use it, because most people on the street and organizations, wherever are not going to pick up one of our academic journals and be like, “Oh, this is a real page turner.” 

Kate Young: 

Yes, yes. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Like, “Let me go ahead and read this,” right? They’re not going to do that. But they might read A, they might listen to a podcast, they might listen to a webinar series. 

And so that really was the spirit behind the Center for Working Well is I saw that there were already so many great people here that so much good work was being done, and I wanted to create a conduit to get that out to people. And so we do workshops, we’re doing engagements like Greater Lafayette, Chamber of Commerce, getting to speak to people, say, “Hey, we’re here. If you’re struggling with issues tied to well-being, tricky relationships, conflict, motivation, making your work more meaningful, you can come talk to us. We’re here, have us come to your company.” And that’s what’s been happening, is we are getting contacted to actually come and share what we know, which is such a relief as a faculty member. That’s why we all love educating. And a lot of times education stops as a college student, and we want to keep educating people who are out there in the workforce saying, “you know what? People are messy and they’re a lot messier than I expected, and I’m having these issues. And can we talk about and how to go ahead and fix that?” 

Kate Young: 

What do you think Working Well means and what are the most pressing topics that the center is addressing right now? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, Working Well to me means thriving at work and at home. I truly believe you cannot be well if you are suffering at work or suffering at home because these worlds are not as separate as we want them to be. There was a long time where, so a way people often think about work, and again, I call it nonwork, that can be your family. It could be your biological family, your chosen family, your friends, your church, your social club, your volunteer community league, whatever that is to you, that is important. And for a long time, we viewed these domains as something that you can choose to integrate. You could be somebody, I’m a high integrator, I don’t mind talking about my family, talking about my experiences, bringing those into the workplace. There’s a little bit of a privilege to be able to do that. With more status, you can do these things maybe a little bit more freely, or there’s people who are segmenters, they want to keep this separate, and people can do this really extremely. So if you come to my office on campus, there are family pictures everywhere. My five-year-old, sometimes she’ll come in, and I have a model on my whiteboard for my research, and she’ll start coloring it in and drawing her own picture. It’s very clear I have children when you come in my office ,or I have really weird hobbies and I’m doodling on my whiteboard. 

So I’m an integrator. But some people will not even bring family pictures to their office. They won’t take family calls when they’re at work. And I think people thought that that was the norm, but that’s not how this works. It’s really hard to do that. It’s hard to mentally shut these worlds down. 

If you think about a work day where maybe you and your partner got off on the wrong foot, you might be able to kind of cool that off on a commute, but those thoughts are still going to keep following you. And so I like to remind people that Working Well means you’re feeling like you can thrive at both work and at home, because those are going to cross back and forth. So if you have a bad work day, you probably go home and you’re not as great to your friends, to your spouse, to your kids, and vice versa. If your kid drops a cup of milk all over your kitchen in the morning and you have a stressful commute and then somebody misses the bus, that’s going to carry over to work. So how can we think about Working Well as building structures and supports that let people really dedicate the time they need to take care of themselves at work and take care of themselves when they are off the clock? 

Kate Young: 

I think too, with all the technology elements, it used to be when my parents were working that you almost could at least shut it off a little bit more. 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s so bad. 

Kate Young: 

They’re not looking at their phone and their email. My father-in-law is always like, I missed the days where I could go to a conference and not be contacted by work, because I was in the conference actually learning things. 

Allie Gabriel: 

“I miss the days when nobody could find me.” 

Kate Young: 

Yeah. And so I’m sure there’s that element too, of and you can text people while you’re at work and you can look on social media and that might put you down or you see something on there, right? So there’s so many more elements in today’s world, 

Allie Gabriel: 

Right? Yeah. The constant connectivity is so much, it’s just so much. And yeah, so I think then it just makes it hard to shut down. And I think we make those mistakes all the time where we’re like, “Okay, I’m working at 8:00 PM tonight. You must also be working at 8:00 PM, so let me just send this email over here.” And what that does is it sends signals that that’s the norm. So you sending an email to somebody at eight 9:00 PM is now the norm of, okay, I’m working. 

Kate Young: 

And you can schedule alerts to everyone. You can schedule Teams messages and emails. 

Allie Gabriel: 

You can. in my email signature now. I put one of those disclaimers in, that’s like, “My work hours may not be yours.” Because really what I want to say is I have two kids now, and life is crazy. You’re going to get emails at really weird times of day. Please do not respond if this is not your time. And respond when you are able. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, I love those. Those are cool. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah. And it’s within reason. I think the tricky part here with prioritizing well-being is there’s a way to also go too far and say, oh, go non-responsive for several days and say like, “No, no, no. I was prioritizing well-being.” Like, okay, wait, “I wasn’t doing my job.” 

Kate Young: 

Yeah, wait a second. 

Allie Gabriel: 

You’re like, “Wait, wait, wait. We’re taking this too far.” And so how can we do this professionally still? And I think there’s a way to do that, which is, “Hey, I’m having a little bit of burnout right now. I see your email, I see your message. Normally I would get to this today. I need to take a beat today, but I’ll get to it tomorrow. So don’t be surprised when you don’t hear from you today, but I see it. I see you. This is important to me.” 

Kate Young: 

Okay, so we’ll wrap it up here, but what small steps can current business leaders, anyone who leads a team, really take now to start improving their own workplace? 

Allie Gabriel: 

Ask questions, ask people how they’re feeling and mean it, right? And not just the small talk like, “Hi, how are you?” 

Kate Young: 

“How was your weekend.” Yeah. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Yeah, yeah. Which I’m terrible at small talk. That’s its own separate podcast. With small talk where you’re like, “Hi, how are you?” I’m like, “Oh, let me tell you.” And you’re like, “No, I didn’t ask that. I just wanted to know how’s the weather?” Ask questions and really listen to people. If you have people who are saying like, “Hey, I’m feeling really fatigued, I’m feeling really anxious.” I think there’s a tendency to be like, “Yeah, get in line. We’re all busy, we’re all anxious.” Actually, listen, because there’s great researcher at Wharton, she passed away a few years ago very, very tragically from glioblastoma, from brain cancer. She was an emotions’ researcher. I just looked up to her so, so much for the type of work she did. And she has this great talk where she talks about the power of emotions, and she’s like, “Emotions are data. They are not these things to not be felt, to not be listened to. They are data. They’re telling you something’s wrong. They’re telling you something’s good.” 

And I think managers asking questions of how people are, asking for instance, Kate, when was the last time somebody was like, “Hey, what do you want to get out of this job? What would make you happy?” My favorite interview question ever was actually when I interviewed here at Purdue, it was that when David Hummels was the dean at the time, it was this last year before Dean Jim Bullard stepped in and I was interviewing and I was just, I’d been out for a while, but I was still nervous. I’m like, “You’re meeting the dean.” And I was nervous and I really wanted this. So I was like, “Okay, get it together. Get it together.” And we’re having the normal questions. And all of a sudden he’s like, “So I have a question. What’s something that you want to do that’ll make you happy that you have not been able to do before that you think you could do here?” 

And I was just flabbergasted. And I was like, “I don’t know the last time somebody asked me what would make me happy.” That’s actually how the Center for Working Well was created, was that question wow. Where I was like, “Well, I’ve had this idea and I just word vomited.” I was like, “I think it could do this and I think it could do this.” And he just was listening and he’s like, “Okay, go write a couple pages,” and that was it. And then it went from page to real life in less than a year. And I was like, “How often though do people get asked, ‘What’s something you want to do that would make you happy?'” 

And I think it’s these easy little micro moments of humanizing people, going all the way back to the beginning of asking people how they are, what would make them happy, what is their life like outside of here, learning who they are. That would start to make work feel a lot better, especially as people are going through so many stressful things. I don’t think a lot of my colleagues necessarily knew I had postpartum depression. A few did, and I told some more people later and they’re like, “Well, why didn’t you tell me?” And I’m like, “I didn’t want to burden you.” 

Kate Young: 

And it’s intimidating. 

Allie Gabriel: 

It’s intimidating. Yeah, “I didn’t want to burden you.” And they were like, “You should have.” And I think good managers ask questions and listen and think about it and say, “Okay, I hear you, and maybe we can’t fix exactly what you’re saying or maybe I can’t do the exact thing you said that would make you happy, but let’s get close.” And I think it’s those little inching towards goodness that can be really, really impactful at work. And it all starts with talking and listening and building a culture where that is encouraged and supported. 

Kate Young: 

Well, Allie, this was a total pleasure. I could go on and on. Maybe we will. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Thank you for making me put on real people clothes for the first time in like five months. 

Kate Young: 

It is so great. Thank you so much. 

Allie Gabriel: 

Oh, thank you for having me. 

Kate Young: 

This interview was a mix of interesting and fun. Allie is such a genuine person, and Purdue is incredibly lucky to have her. If you want to hear more workplace tips from Allie, including how many exclamation marks is too many to add in an email, head over to our podcast YouTube channel youtube.com/@thisispurdue. 

This is Purdue has a very special series coming out this month. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and follow life at Purdue on social media for some hints and Easter eggs, and stay tuned for Monday, October 20th. Trust us, you will not want to miss it. This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with John Garcia, Zack Mogenson and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team, project manager is Rain Guo. Our podcast YouTube Promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistant is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production assistant is Delaney Young. 

Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu slash podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler up.

Dimitri Peroulis: 

This is Dimitri Peroulis, and you’re listening to This is Purdue. 

Kate Young: 

Hi, I’m Kate Young, and you’re listening to This is Purdue, the official podcast for Purdue University. As a Purdue alum and Indiana-native, I know firsthand about the family of students and professors who are in it together, persistently pursuing and relentlessly rethinking. Who are the next game-changers, difference-makers, ceiling-breakers, innovators, who are these boilermakers? Join me as we feature students, faculty and alumni taking small steps towards their giant leaps and inspiring others to do the same. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Sometimes I compare my own experience as a student and the experience of the student now in the 21st century, in 2025 and beyond, and those students do need to be future-ready, they do need to understand how industry works, they do need to get hands-on learning experience, but they need to do that not as a one-off, but actually through a full integration. 

Kate Young: 

In this episode of This is Purdue, we’re talking to Dimitri Peroulis, senior vice president for partnerships and online at Purdue University. Dimitri recently kicked off his 23rd year at Purdue. He leads the university’s online programs and the Offices of Industry Partnerships, Global Partnerships and Engagement. He also serves as the Riley professor of electrical and computer engineering. As a leading expert on new innovative degrees and courses for workforce development and advancement, Dimitri is digging into the ever-evolving higher education landscape and how Purdue is effectively preparing students to stay future-ready. Plus, he’s sharing his advice for students entering today’s workforce. So let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Dimitri. 

Dimitri, thank you for joining us on This is Purdue, the official Purdue podcast, so welcome to the show. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Thank you so much. It’s awesome to be here. 

Kate Young: 

You are an expert on new innovative degrees and different courses for workforce development and advancement, so we’re going to dive into all that today. We’re going to talk a lot about being future-ready and what that means. Let’s start by talking a little bit about your role. Tell us what you do at Purdue, and how the university is changing what college and experiential learning looks like. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Indeed, I’m wearing a couple of different hats. I’m an electrical engineer by training, so I’m a faculty member in the Elmore Family School of Electrical and Computer Engineering. I’m now serving as a senior vice president for partnerships and online. It’s interesting, partnerships include industry partnerships, it includes global programs and partnerships, and it includes the Office of Engagement, which is about our local city-level partnerships. And the online programs are mainly the programs that we offer through the main campus. We do have some online programs offered by regional campuses, but the majority are degrees and credentials here from West Lafayette. 

Kate Young: 

Dimitri explains how Purdue is changing what college and experiential learning looks like by partnering with leading corporations like Eli Lilly and Company and Wabash. 

How are the university’s strategic relationships with these companies helping students stay future-ready? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

That’s frankly what is on our mind when we’re thinking about these partnerships, and I think the key is to think of them as forging strategic-level partnerships that really will transform the experience of the student. Sometimes, I compare my own experience as a student and the experience of the student now in the 21st century, in 2025 and beyond, and those students do need to be future-ready, they do need to understand how industry works, they do need to get hands-on learning experience, but they need to do that not as a one-off, but actually through a full integration. And that’s frankly why we do these strategic partnerships, we try to integrate them fully in the curriculum of the student in terms of what they might learn in the classroom, but also what kind of research experiences they might have here on campus, what kind of internship experiences and co-ops might get, and global experiences. Some of the students like to do that and we really need to support them on this. 

So many of these partnerships, you will see that they provide a whole hub of experiences. With Lilly, for example, we have center on campus that really takes students to the next level of engagement with Lilly. The students can understand how drug discovery works, how pharmaceutical manufacturing works, what does it mean to take something from the lab of a university, which sometimes it starts as a pure curiosity, but actually then leads to a full-fledged manufacturing process. And with Wabash as well, so they just need to learn how do supply and chain management skills work, how do these very complex companies carry operations so efficiently. So it’s all about this synergistic operation and this strategic alliance that we try to form between the university and the companies. 

Kate Young: 

It definitely feels like the days of getting an internship one summer, one semester, and that’s that, is over. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Yes, indeed. 

Kate Young: 

It’s all about that hands-on experiential learning, like you just talked about. How did these relationships with companies like Lilly and Wabash strengthen the overall workforce development and advancement, especially like you talked about with the drugs going from a lab out to the world to solve these challenges, talk a little bit about the research initiatives that are addressing the world’s toughest challenges today. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

It’s interesting, when you think about the skills that the students will need when they join companies like the ones we’re talking about, of course, they will need what they learned in the classroom, but they will need a lot more. They will need a whole new mindset of how they apply problem-solving skills to solve some of these tough challenges. And those are young individuals that are going to join the workforce, and almost immediately, they’re going to be faced with the real world. And so, we try to make sure that while they’re still in the university and while they still have the time and the opportunity to learn those skills and to learn how to create this type of mindset, that they have all the time and the opportunity to do so. 

That’s why I often tell students what you get at Purdue inside the classroom should not be more than 50% of your whole experience, the other 50% is outside, and industry partnerships is a big part of that. The fact that we’re able to offer this to our students, it’s incredible. We have more than 400 industry partners right now. Very, very few universities can really provide this kind of an experience to the student. And students can learn not only from the professors who sometimes lead those partnerships, but through the people who work in those companies. We have a lot of alumni in those companies. A lot of times, they develop mentorship relationships. So one step brings the other and it basically leads students to where we think they can be leaders very quickly. 

Kate Young: 

What advice do you have for students, maybe they’re interested in research, internships, engagement opportunities, how should they get their foot in the door? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Well, first of all, I would say don’t be shy. 

Kate Young: 

That’s hard though. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

It’s hard, it’s hard. And we really try to make it as easy as possible by providing multiple pathways. For example, there are centers on campus, like the Undergraduate Research Center, that students can just go online or just go there and start getting the advice they need. We offer programs on campus, summer programs or programs… This semester, this fall, we have the Discovery Interdisciplinary Research Program. The students can participate and they can apply even if they have no connections on campus, even if they haven’t met anyone, even if they haven’t connected yet to maybe a research lab, they can immediately go ahead and do this. But I always advise students to also create their own network. They can connect, for example, with student clubs, there are hundreds of students clubs on campus, they can connect with research groups. Sometimes, knocking on somebody’s door, virtual or real, is a little bit intimidating, but that’s why we’re here. So thankfully, there are multiple pathways, and I always advise students to start with the most comfortable one, but slowly push their comfort zone to the next level. 

Kate Young: 

It gets easier and easier, right? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Indeed. 

Kate Young: 

Dimitri dives into Purdue’s flagship online programs, one of the intentional ways in which the university is adapting to an evolving workforce. He shares some of the most unique career-forward courses and degree programs available for today’s students. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

In the online world, you will see students who are pursuing full degrees. We call that the credit-bearing credentials. Students who will pursue, for example, full master’s degrees online. And frankly, at Purdue now, we have full doctorate degrees online. You can get a Doctor of Technology, and as of last year, a Doctor of Engineering fully online, very, very unique opportunities. And those are the same degrees and the same credentials that people can earn here on our campus. They still earn a Purdue degree, they still get to walk through the Elliott Hall, they get taught by the same faculty members, they take the same exams, the same assessments, and of course, the same degree as everybody else. But in addition to that, we have the second bucket of offerings. Those are, I would say, career-focused micro-credentials, so people who need or want to be up-skilled very quickly in a field. An example is AI. 

Kate Young: 

Sure, hot topic. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Exactly. So we have people who graduated just a few years ago, they never took a single course in AI, and now they have to go and either work in the field of AI or even lead a group in AI. And some of those individuals need to work in the, I would say, hard tech of AI, but others need to think about applying AI to different spaces. What does it mean, for example, to apply AI into business? What does it mean to apply AI into governance or ethics or policy? So we created specific micro-credentials for that. We have actually 13 micro-credentials right now. They last about a month. Students can take them at their own pace. And then, right after that, if they want, they can continue and get even a full degree. But if they don’t want or don’t need a full degree, they’re going to be ready for industry. 

Many of these credentials, by the way, are very unique in the sense… For example, the AI micro-credentials are the only ones and the first ones that have been ABET-accredited at Purdue here. Some micro-credentials are also stackable, you can stack one on top of the other and start building a degree pathway if you want to. Some of them are bringing topics together that you might not have thought about. For example, we have AI storytelling, so how do you bring AI and how do you build your skills to convey what you want to say in a very engaging way? And of course, depending on the field that you go, you can find exactly what you need. 

Kate Young: 

And these are degrees and coursework and certifications that didn’t exist, five, certainly not 10 years ago. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

That’s right, that’s right. Some of them are brand new. We tend to build degrees that are really needed in the workforce now, but also in the future. And the number of students pursuing those degrees at Purdue is growing. Right now, we have almost 6,000 students who pursue full degrees at Purdue, fully online, and almost 14,000 who pursue micro-credentials. Those students benefit from the Purdue ecosystem, the infrastructure, our faculty, our staff members, the whole expertise, and from the industry connections we have to make those degrees relevant. For example, we work very closely with industry to co-build some of those micro-credentials in the areas, for example, of semiconductors. We work closely with industry, we have people from the industry working hand-in-hand with Purdue faculty members to bring a very unique offering, so people get to learn the fundamentals, but also what is applied right now. 

Kate Young: 

How do these things, AI-related degrees, we just talked about semiconductors, hypersonic certificates, how do these new online programs really help keep students future-ready? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Future-ready is a very interesting word. I know we talked a little bit about that. But when I think about a future-ready student, I think somebody who’s going to thrive and lead a very rapidly changing world. It’s a matter of giving them a very strong technical foundation in the areas, for example, that you mentioned, but it’s also a way of making them understand how they need to think about the future. Their mindset has to be a mindset of curiosity, of creativity, a mindset where they can take risks, a mindset that allows them to be adaptive and flexible. The world is not what it used to be 10 or 20 years ago, and likely the speed is going to accelerate for these students. So when we bring them through those unique offerings, of course, we will teach them what they need, but we try to create those communities that they will learn from each other and they will learn from the leaders, both in industry, as well as in academia. 

Kate Young: 

And when it comes to these online offerings and class formats, how does that differ from what Boilermakers get with the more traditional path? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

For people who pursue degrees, we have the same faculty members and the same people who will teach them, but the flexibility is the key. So the typical online student is a student who is a working professional, they tend to manage full-time jobs, sometimes they tend to manage families, so they have limited amount of time, so they need to focus on what they need to do, and they have to basically do that very quickly and very efficiently. So we try to be really flexible on what we’re doing, and we try to support them in terms of what they need. 

I’ll give you an example. A few years ago, and this is happening almost every year, I had a student who was a nuclear submarine officer. The student sent me an email at the very beginning of the semester saying, “Professor, I’m going to be literally underwater for three weeks, so I won’t be able to download lectures, I won’t be able to submit homework, I won’t be able to do projects.” And of course, we helped the student do the work as he needed. And it’s that flexibility, I think, that has put Purdue in a leadership position in the online courses, of course, in many other areas. But just to give you an example, many of our degrees are top ranked right now, many engineering degrees are top ranked, mechanical engineering is top ranked, electrical engineering is top ranked, engineering management, industrial engineering and so on. We really recognize, I think, in the way we do things and the kind of care, I think, we give to the students. 

Kate Young: 

How is Purdue, and specifically the online programs that we’re talking about, preparing students to leverage the degrees, the coursework, to excel after graduation? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

First of all, we make sure that the students are truly taught by the very best. We’re very blessed to have here on campus the very best faculty, so they really learn from the very best. They really learn from people who don’t just teach the material, but the ones who are leading the future, and getting that experience, I think it’s invaluable. At the same time, they get those connections with industry folks. Many of the companies that I discussed before are also engaged in the teaching and learning for the students. 

And of course, we help them afterwards. The students have the ability to come back to us every time they need something. This is not a static world. There are students who, yes, maybe right now, they’re studying AI, but perhaps sometime later, they need to study something more in the creative arts or something more in the business domain. So how does the business mindset blend with, let’s say, a science or engineering mindset? So we’re always there for them. When they come to our door, they can be absolutely certain that they get the best of the best, and in a way that they can actually learn, meet them where they are. 

Kate Young: 

And speaking of faculty, you still teach, you said- 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I do. 

Kate Young: 

… this will be your 23rd year at Purdue. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I do, I do. 

Kate Young: 

Amazing. Congrats. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I’m teaching every semester, yes, thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Let’s dive into your Purdue journey. How did you come to Purdue? What’s your background? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

After I finished my PhD, I was looking for a university that could truly help me apply my knowledge, but at the same time, teach students. So I was looking for this, let me call it, perfect balance between research excellence and teaching excellence, and Purdue’s values were really well-aligned with what I was looking for. At the same time, Purdue had the facilities that I needed. I’m doing experimental work in the area of electronics and semiconductors. The Burke Nanotechnology Center was just coming up at the time I joined Purdue, so this was a big magnet, I think, for me, as well as many other folks. And I still remember how welcoming the community was here. It was incredible to start talking about collaboration options, growth opportunities, from my very, very first week here, and that spirit still remains. So there was no question really. 

Kate Young: 

And you won the Charles B. Murphy Outstanding Undergraduate Teaching Award in 2010, which is Purdue’s highest undergraduate teaching honor. How do you think your passion for teaching and your professional background helps you in your current role today? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

I have been thinking a little bit about that over time, because I’m still teaching, but I’m still serving the university in different roles, and a lot of times, I think the skills in teaching and the skills in leadership overlap. For example, in teaching, I think a good teacher is all about connecting with the students, is all about curiosity, compassion a lot of times, and at the end of the day, what are you trying to do? You’re trying to truly empower a student to take the next step that normally they couldn’t take before you met them. But now, they feel not only they can take it, but they actually can take it with confidence, so they feel really empowered. 

In many ways, leadership positions require similar skills. And so, when I work with my colleagues, when I’m thinking about their problems, when I’m thinking about the next step we have to take as a university, a lot of these thoughts come back and I think a lot of these skills help me move forward. And of course, I’m an engineer by training, I have to bring my engineering and problem-solving mindset into this. So I think it all blends in a creative way. 

Kate Young: 

Absolutely, that’s special. So you grew up in Greece and studied there, we had Assistant Professor Alex Psomas was also a fellow Greece resident. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Oh, yeah. 

Kate Young: 

And then, you were a graduate student at the University of Michigan. What did the workforce look like then? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Boy, I’ll try to remember, it’s been a while. But I do remember that when I was an undergraduate student back in Greece and I was studying engineering, it was a different world. The emphasis was a lot more on building analytical skills, it was also a lot more building a theoretical foundation, less about hands-on learning. And at the time, I think all I was thinking about, and most of my colleagues, were excelling academically and looking for some type of, I would say, stable next step. And again, I think we were in an academic environment that was more or less stable for decades. I’m not sure we can say that at this point. 

But in my graduate studies, things changed a little bit. I think everybody who goes to grad school find themselves in this dynamic environment which is very much innovation-driven. I actually chose to do a hands-on PhD, a lot of hours in the lab, a lot of hours trying things, even though I had almost no background in this, mostly because I wanted to push myself to learn that part of the world. And now, we come to university that gives opportunities to the students, thankfully much more than I experienced, much more than just the analytical skills, just the technical skills, forcing the students to think about business, forcing the students to think about entrepreneurship, allowing them to connect with the industry, allowing them to think a bit more broadly about the world. So thankfully, I think we are now providing more opportunities than in the past. 

Kate Young: 

Reflecting back and knowing everything that you know now, if you were a student at Purdue today, what career path do you think that you would take? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Oh, sometimes I think I wish I could become a student again, because we’re all learning, we talked about lifelong learning before, so I’m trying to do this in many opportunities as much as I can. But if I was back at Purdue, I think, as a student, perhaps I would think about three different dimensions. So one would be, I would say, excellence in technology. I’m an engineer, so I have to think about that, I’m sure it’s not for everyone. But think about depth in the particular field you want to focus on. But then, I would also think about creative expressions. I think this is so crucial in today’s world. We talk a lot about AI, we talk a lot about technology, but what about poetry and what about music and what about what makes all of us humans? I think this kind of creative expression will be more and more crucial in the future. And the last thing I would say is about thinking about the global business impact. So as I’m thinking about what domain I would focus on, I would try to make sure it’s business-relevant, and ideally in a global perspective. 

Kate Young: 

What advice do you have for students entering the workforce today? What are some practical steps that they can use to stay adaptable, resilient, persistent, what advice do you have? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Well, I think you already mentioned some very key- 

Kate Young: 

Key words. 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

… key words. I would start with resilient. The world is changing, setbacks are almost unavoidable, challenges, frustrations, are difficult not to face. So resilience is a key, I think, skill and mindset that people need to bring. But also, the workforce provides opportunities. So I would think of a student who is applying both, I would say, an offensive approach, in the sense of grabbing opportunities, being out there, hungry to learn, hungry to contribute, eager to move the world forward in the right direction, and at the same time, being able to cope with difficulties that will come almost for sure, so not being discouraged, not giving up. The world is moving fast, is adaptive, but it also provides lots of opportunities. So that mindset, I think, is crucial. 

Kate Young: 

Well, Dimitri, it was a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today. Is there anything else that you’d like to tell our listeners or our viewers? 

Dimitri Peroulis: 

Well, as you can probably imagine, I’m quite excited about being at Purdue. Maybe one thing I will add is that no matter if you are a student or if you’re an industry partner or if you’re a global partner or if you’re a researcher or a faculty member, I think people find that Purdue is where innovation actually meets impact, and that’s what really is exciting so much. And that’s what I think all of our partners, no matter which direction come to us and no matter what opportunities they explore with us, at the end of the day, they think about people and impact. So thank you. 

Kate Young: 

Yes, absolutely, thank you so much. 

Dimitri exemplifies the Boilermaker spirit and humility, and we can’t thank him enough for joining us. If you’re interested in learning more about Purdue online, you can visit purdue.edu/online. Dimitri also shared some bonus content with us, including his top two majors of the future on our podcast YouTube channel, youtube.com/@thisispurdue, and don’t forget to hit that subscribe button while you’re there. Plus, be sure to follow This is Purdue on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. We have a very special series coming out in October, and trust us, you will not want to miss it. More to come on that very soon. 

This is Purdue is hosted and written by me, Kate Young. Our podcast videography for this episode was led by Thad Boone, in collaboration with Jon Garcia, Zach Mogensen and Alli Chaney. Our social media marketing is led by Maria Welch. Our podcast distribution strategy is led by Carly Eastman. Our podcast design is led by Cheryl Glotzbach. Our podcast photography is led by John Underwood. Our podcast team project manager is Rain Gu. Our podcast YouTube promotions is managed by Megan Hoskins. Additional writing and research assistance is led by Sophie Ritz and Ashvini Malshe. And our creative production assistant is Dalani Young. Thanks for listening to This is Purdue. For more information on this episode, visit our website at purdue.edu/podcast. From there, you can head over to your favorite podcast app to subscribe. And don’t forget, you can also check out all of our podcast content on our podcast YouTube page, youtube.com/@thisispurdue. And as always, Boiler Up.